AI Wingmen repeatadly pull out of ground attack runs

[Bear Flag]

I have recently noticed that sometimes AI wingmen, when ordered on a ground attack but forced to pull out due to a near-collision with another of my AI wingmen, pull out of every succeeding ground attack run in the same manner even when there is no near-collision. It is like they get infected by cowardice. I will pull the "coward" back into formation, fly him to a good starting point and make sure there will be no other interfering aircraft, order an attack, the AI wingman proceeds on the same course that a successfully attacking wingmen would, announces the beginning of the attack run on the radio, then abruptly pulls up very steeply (as if at the end of a run to avoid the ground) before even firing the guns.

I've noticed this specifically on the stock B-25 and B-26 "tactical_bomber" Category. It may have occurred with other types, but I just never noticed until now.

Does anyone understand what is going on, or what to do about it? I try to space out my attacking AI wingmen in the first place, but out of 8 aircraft, there will tend to be at least one near-collision and resultant "coward".

[Daiwilletti]

I have recently noticed that sometimes AI wingmen, when ordered on a ground attack but forced to pull out due to a near-collision with another of my AI wingmen, pull out of every succeeding ground attack run in the same manner even when there is no near-collision. It is like they get infected by cowardice. I will pull the "coward" back into formation, fly him to a good starting point and make sure there will be no other interfering aircraft, order an attack, the AI wingman proceeds on the same course that a successfully attacking wingmen would, announces the beginning of the attack run on the radio, then abruptly pulls up very steeply (as if at the end of a run to avoid the ground) before even firing the guns.

I've noticed this specifically on the stock B-25 and B-26 "tactical_bomber" Category. It may have occurred with other types, but I just never noticed until now.

Does anyone understand what is going on, or what to do about it? I try to space out my attacking AI wingmen in the first place, but out of 8 aircraft, there will tend to be at least one near-collision and resultant "coward".

Hi Bear Flag, we are getting into a fairly nebulous area here. When I have one or two low-performing AI wingmen, I suspect that they are junior with low skills. If you read through the pilotconstants.xml file, down the bottom is a section about "unlocking technology" at various skill or experience levels. The technology referred to are bombs, rockets, etc. This suggests to me that the "newbies" in your campaign are not too competent for a mission or two.

You can tell what levels of competence your campaign wingmen have, by reading the *.cmpstat file (using Notepad) under the My Documents pathway, the same place that your screen shots are saved. At the bottom of the .cmpstat file, all your wingmen, their skill, gtolerance, experience, ship air and ground kills, rank, health status etc, are listed. This is under the relevant Campaign subfolder.

A note about using the "R" command: - you cannot recall just one wingman (AFAIK). When you press "R", all your wingmen will break off the attack. If you then select your target and press "A", a pair of wingmen will attack the selected target. If you are attacking a shipping convoy, and do not select a target, then pressing "A" will send two wingmen off but they will attack separate ships. So if you have 7 wingmen and 7 ships, you can press "A" 4 times, and all 7 wingmen will attack a separate ship each. They will continue with numerous passes, untill all their ammo is used up or they are shot down.

HTH,

[Bear Flag]

Daiwilletti, thanks for the response. I was actually testing this in the mission builder mode, not campaign. The aircraft in this testing flight were all Veteran skill, stock B-26s. Do Veterans in the single Mission Builder scenarios have individual skills, or is it all the same?

I was noticing them attacking singly or in pairs depending on if I selected a target or not. I noticed for sure one pulling up suddenly and never firing, even though I could see rockets under the winds and there were no other aircraft nearby it. All other aircraft in that flight attacked normally. It is something I have noticed in other situations, but this is where I was strictly testing it.

[Daiwilletti]

Hi Bear Flag,
I do not fly missions so much, but from what I recall the assignment of your flight to attack targets would follow the same protocol. So what you may be observing is wingmen following you in to the target, but because they have not been assigned a target to attack, they are merely following you in formation as closely as the AI engine allows.

Take a note of who responds in the affirmative, when you press "A". Only these wingmen will attack the selected target. Not sure in Missions whether the mission goal is picked up on by your wingmen unless you assign them to it.

Hopefully someone else butts in about now.

[Bear Flag]

The wingmen are definitely assigned targets. Sometimes they get to the "Target in sight" radio call point before pulling away, but sometimes they don't even get that far before pulling away. From there sometimes they circle around and try again, and other times they climb while circling, heading up to 10,000 feet or more before I get tired of watching and pull them back into formation. But once a wingman pulls out, they never make any successful attacks for the rest of that mission no matter how many times I get them to a good initial point, and then order another attack.

I've been experimenting more, and it usually happens with gun/missile runs. Bomb runs are rarely affected. I noticed that category fighter_bomber is affected too. Keeping wider formations or splitting the formation before ordering an attack seems to be the best prevention.

[Blood_Hawk23]

I'm new to CFS3 but are these stock ACs?

I know from CFS2 that the AI uses part of the airfile for landing and other things. if its set wrong they won't ground attack. I'm not sure if CFS3 has this issue as well. If thay are not stock then check this entry in the airfile...

1203

40
10
120
70
40
-40

This may or may not apply to CFS3. Could be worth a look.

UPDATE: I just looked at the stock B26.

the 1203 is as follows...

25
20
200
140
10
-30

this could be your problem. If you'd like I can make an airfile for you to test.

so what do these number mean.

1203 is the autopilot limits. For what ever reason the AI ( In CFS2 mind you) will use these for ground attack.

Bank Limit TAS 1=40
Bank Limit TAS 2=10
TAS 1=
TAS 2=
Down Pitch Limit= 40
Up Pitch Limit= -40

these two number are probably what is causing them not to attack. where the stock b26 is at 10 you might want to change it to 30 or 40

[HouseHobbit]

Hi Bear,
In the number of missions built, I have learned very well how to use my AI wingmen.
They can be a pain..


I haven't had any of the issues you seem to be having?

I will try several in ETO 1.50 expansion I have built for ground attack and anti shipping to check this.
I tend to assign my AI targets and send them in pairs to attack, then I wait back and watch, allowing myself the option to attack any un-destroyed targets in a mission.
I have learned to assign priorities, I.E.
to set the target to be attacked with Bombs, or Guns or All weapons, in the mission so the AI know what to do.
If this isn't assigned the AI will often do nothing.

If your formation is assigned in the mission plan to recon, your AI will not always attack even if a target is selected in the ground attack mode.
Or if the player formation is set for intercept, the AI often will not always attack a ground target
Check in the missions in Question to see how the Player formation is set, either: intercept, Recon, Nothing, attack with Guns, or bombs or all weapons

This makes a BIG difference how the mission and AI work.
May be just a Mission error in the set up. So the AI don't know what they are meant to do in the mission.

[Bear Flag]

HouseHobbit: I checked my missions and the "attack with" might possibly cause the problem occasionally, but I know it is not the main cause, because: in the same formation on the same mission, some of the aircraft will attack and keep attacking with rockets & guns after they use their bombs. Others however, will drop their bombs and then pull out of every gun/missile run. So maybe 1/2 the planes will do the gun & missile run successfully, and the other 1/2 won't, no matter how many times they pull out and go around for another pass. I also have this problem in Quick Combat.

Blood_Hawk23: These are stock aircraft, though I have modified the aircraft.cfg of most of them in small ways to my preference or to make them more realistic. But I doubt that would cause a problem since they are small changes (like increasing manifold pressure slightly, or wing incidence .5 degrees) and usually 1/2 to 2/3 of the aircraft in a flight do the gun-missile runs successfully. It is just weird... maybe some AI wingmen are getting damaged during the bomb run slightly but show no outward signs like smoke/oil leaks, and then the autopilot limits prevent them from compensating sufficiently for the following gun-missile run?

Thanks for the airfile info, I will try playing with those myself using AirEd. Although I was having the same problem with P-47s as I was with B-26s, and the P-47s have the +40 and -40 pitch limits like you suggested. By the way, do you know, is "TAS" the true air speed for the bank limit?

[Blood_Hawk23]

It must be True air speed. They could be stalling which would be the reason for them to pull out of the run.

Are these your wingmen or regular AI?

Again I don't know CFS3 but in CFS2 the approach needs to be considered. Things such as altitude and heading as well as the placement of the markers for waypoints. Too high or low and they won't engage. waypoints to close or not on the target can have an impact. as well as bombing first then doing gun and rockets after. Now that is all for CFS2. Saddly one of our best experts is no longer with us. But if you want to know a few trick that we use in CFS2 get in touch with Rami.

Thats about all I've got. Sorry I couldn't be more of a help.