Conspicuous by Their Absence

[Ivan]

Hi Hubbabubba,

I also found a copy of Warship Profile 4 yesterday and read through it last night. It is interesting but there are a few statements within that are obviously incorrect. One of the pictures in the book is the one showing the burnt out seaplane after the battle.

One thing that WAS laid to rest by this book was the remaining ammunition load for Admiral Graf Spee. She had a total of 186 main gun rounds out of her full load of 600. Most of them (170) were AP rounds. She had been using mostly HE rounds against the British cruisers which means that they were considered "soft" targets. It also meant that she had expended nearly ALL of her most effective ammunition during the first engagement.

Even when her class ship the Deutschland was laid down in 1929, there were a few ships that were not only faster but also more powerful than she was. The British had the battlecruisers Renown, Repulse and of course the Hood. The Japanese had the Kongo class battlecruisers Kongo, Kirishima, Hiei, and Haruna. By the time she was in service, there were plenty of heavy cruisers that could have beaten her or at least fight to a draw one on one. Look at the Japanese Myoko and Takao classes.

At the time of her death, there were plenty of ships that were not only faster than she but also much more powerful. Perhaps her captain should have been a bit more cautious about any engagement with a warship.

I believe the Deutschland / Lutzow class were fine ships but because of Versailles Treaty limitations were never much more than a large London Treaty heavy cruiser with optimised armament.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

(...)

The Arado 196 is a strange one. The issues you are bringing up seem to mostly involve the engine which was a fairly proven design. The BMW 132 was also used in the FW 200 and the DORNIER 17.... One of the photographs I saw of the battle damage on board Admiral Graf Spee showed the remains of a burnt out seaplane which would suggest that the Arado was aboard during the battle.

(...)
- Ivan.

The carcass of the Arado Ar 196A-1 was effectively still standing on the catapult of the Graf Spee in Montevideo as these pictures show;
Attachment 26579This one, depicting damages amidship, shows clearly that the engine and the wings of the aircraft are missing;
Attachment 26580This one, from the stern perspective, shows the floats still attached;

but the best view is this one;Attachment 26581


We can observe that the engine and the wings are "neatly" missing, they haven't been torn away by the blast of an explosion or burn by fire, like the tail fuselage would suggest. Otherwise, we should see the charred remains of spars, the distorted engine's supports. Between the time a Graf Spee lookout signaled the masts of a warship (0530 hours) to the first Exeter salvo (0620 hours), the Ar 196 could have been catapulted half-a-dozen times... if it was airworthy. The book I cited above was clearly referring to the log book of the Graf Spee. Another document, to be found HERE , is also referring to the log book and gives the same date for the aircraft demise. I can only but speculate here. Since the last flight of the Ar 196 and the beginning of the battle, less than 48 hours had gone by. It is more than probable that the salvaging of all useful items was interrupted by more urging affairs. Again, concerning the BMW 132, we are left with hypothesis; was the engine fuel injected like other Luftwaffe BMW 132 engines, and contrary to carburettor-fed "civilian" aircraft, causing overheating or abnormal cylinder pressure? Was the engine too stiff, or too loose, in its cradle? Was the cowling causing bad airflow around the engine? I see no reason to reject log book entries, and no good reasons to believe that the Ar 196 was left on its catapult while its services were so much needed.

The Battle of River Plate.

Aftermath:
HMS Exeter: All guns unserviceable. She has suffered severe damage but is hardly a pontoon. She sails for the Falklands under her own power.

HMS Achilles: No Significant Damage.

HMS Ajax: Both Aft Turrets unserviceable. One gun in a Forward Turret disabled.

DKM Admiral Graf Spee: One 5.9 inch gun disabled. All Range Finders disabled. Oil Purifier destroyed. Desalination plant destroyed (Apparently this was also required for operation of the diesels. I am not sure what the purpose of clean water was. Perhaps it was for coolant, perhaps it was for anti-detonant or for cylinder cleaning.) The Desalination plant apparently was the most critical loss and reports sent to Germany were only revealed in 2000.

Most of AGS's main armament ammunition was expended. In the prior battle, her secondaries landed absolutely ZERO hits on any of her opponents.

The ship that replaced HMS Exeter was a County class Cruiser: HMS Cumberland. Cumberland was a ship that was nearly identical in dimensions to Graf Spee (20 feet longer but 3 feet less beam). The German 28 cm gun threw a 660 pound shell. The British 8 inch gun threw a 256 pound shell. The British gun had about twice the theoretical firing rate, but for practical purposes, the firing rates were close to identical. Not that it was important (because either ship's main armament would have blasted through its opponent), but except for the conning tower and turret faces, the armour was fairly similar with belt thickness going to Cumberland.

If both ships were healthy and fighting one on one, Graf Spee should win but not without sustaining crippling damage. As the fight stood with two other hulls, I can't see Graf Spee surviving such a fight. Should couldn't even target all of her opponents at the same time. There would always be one opponent unengaged.

- Ivan.

The Exeter had lost all its main guns, was without communication, without gyro-compass, without main mast, was listing 11° and crawled to the Faklands at half speed, steered below aft deck and navigating with a boat's compass. Okay, she was not a pontoon. Maybe a barge?

The Achilles was almost unscathed, but very low on ammo, as she had been shooting broadside after broadside. With only three main guns left, the Ajax was involuntarily forced into a saving mode.

The damage on the Graf Spee were not so apparent. The range finding theodolites were still functional. Otherwise, how could we explain that she straddled the Achilles at 11.5 nautical miles on her second salvo at 1015 hours, long after she had received her last shell impact? She still had, according to numerous sources, all of its main gun and enough ammunition for 40 minutes of continual firing.

The main problem was the oil-fuel treatment plant. Here is the best description of the system I have found so far;

The ‘Deutschland’ Class armoured ships, to which Admiral Graf Spee belonged, were diesel-propelled. The diesel fuel oil available for marine use in those days was much “heavier,” i.e., viscous, than today’s more highly refined product. Accordingly, it needed to be pre-heated to achieve proper combustion when burned in diesel engines. About 24 hours’ supply of heated fuel oil was therefore kept in a ‘day tank’ for immediate supply to the engines. In the ‘Deutschland’ Class armoured ships the day tank was heated by internal steam coils, steam being supplied from a donkey boiler by way of an unprotected
line running along the upper deck. This critical design flaw now manifested itself: a 6 inch hit on Admiral Graf Spee’s upper deck amidships had severed the steam supply line from the donkey boiler to the day tank. There would be no more pre-heated fuel available for main engines once the oil in the day
tank had been exhausted. And without preheated fuel, the engines would rapidly carbon up and eventually stop running altogether — especially in the cold waters of the North Atlantic which would be encountered on the return to Germany.

The PDF can be found HERE , and the system description was explained to the author by seasoned RCN-RN naval engineers specialized in diesel propulsion.

I do agree with you that the Graf Spee was doomed after entering Montevideo harbor. What puzzle me was why Langsdorff didn't went instead to Buenos Aires, well within reach. Night was falling and he only had to take the Rio de la Plata (which, btw, means Silver River, not "plate" river) dragged channel to get there. During its sojourn in Montevideo, all the help came from Buenos Aires anyway, as pro-British and pro-French harbor facility providers were not cooperating.

Most of Langsdorff decisions were based on sketchy, when not faulty, information. He attacked the Exeter thinking she was alone with two destroyers escorting a convoy. Once having dealt with the Exeter, he did not pursue his advantage on the light cruisers, thinking that a larger force was beyond the horizon. He found refuge in a neutral port knowingly pro-British while another neutral port, Buenos Aires, knowingly pro-German, was within reach on the pretense that he would have to fight in shallow waters. He then left Montevideo and scuttled the Graf Spee, in shallow waters, thinking the Ark Royal and the Renown were waiting for him.

How many of these decisions would have been different if the Ar 196 had been patrolling?

[hubbabubba]

Hi Hubbabubba,

I also found a copy of Warship Profile 4 yesterday and read through it last night. It is interesting but there are a few statements within that are obviously incorrect. One of the pictures in the book is the one showing the burnt out seaplane after the battle.

One thing that WAS laid to rest by this book was the remaining ammunition load for Admiral Graf Spee. She had a total of 186 main gun rounds out of her full load of 600. Most of them (170) were AP rounds. She had been using mostly HE rounds against the British cruisers which means that they were considered "soft" targets. It also meant that she had expended nearly ALL of her most effective ammunition during the first engagement.

Even when her class ship the Deutschland was laid down in 1929, there were a few ships that were not only faster but also more powerful than she was. The British had the battlecruisers Renown, Repulse and of course the Hood. The Japanese had the Kongo class battlecruisers Kongo, Kirishima, Hiei, and Haruna. By the time she was in service, there were plenty of heavy cruisers that could have beaten her or at least fight to a draw one on one. Look at the Japanese Myoko and Takao classes.

At the time of her death, there were plenty of ships that were not only faster than she but also much more powerful. Perhaps her captain should have been a bit more cautious about any engagement with a warship.

I believe the Deutschland / Lutzow class were fine ships but because of Versailles Treaty limitations were never much more than a large London Treaty heavy cruiser with optimised armament.

- Ivan.

The Graf Spee was even slower than its original figures owing to the fact that, almost from the start of its raiding campaign, she was due for a general overhaul of its engines. The crew did his best to keep them running, but cracks had developed in their mountings and maximum speed was limited at 22 knots. That detail appears in the document I cited earlier HERE .

Most of the ships you're mentioning were great ships indeed, but they were not near the Rio de la Plata. Only the Renown was closing in.

As for being cautious, I think that Kapitan zur See Hans Langsdorff was misguided by bad intelligence and inopportune guesses. He also had a misplace confidence in his ship, especially in its ability to take damage. It was reported that he was totally dismayed when he realized in Montevideo that a single 6 inch shell had probably sealed their fate.

As we say; c'est la guerre!:ernae:

[Ivan]

There are many places where there is no armour but a single hit can make a great difference. The Bismarck caught at least one 14 inch hit on her unarmoured bow section and had some of her fuel contaminated by a hit which ruptured a fuel tank. Neither one had any risk of sinking her, but resulted in the instant termination of her mission along with great questions about her seaworthiness and ability to return to base.

In the US line of battleships, the New York class had widely distributed armour while the following Nevada class had "all or nothing" armour which was considered to be more optimal but left more places entirely unprotected.

There are many "should haves" here. Admiral Graf Spee should have gone home when she had the chance. Bismarck should have pursued and sunk Prince of Wales when she had the chance....

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

There are many places where there is no armour but a single hit can make a great difference. The Bismarck caught at least one 14 inch hit on her unarmoured bow section and had some of her fuel contaminated by a hit which ruptured a fuel tank. Neither one had any risk of sinking her, but resulted in the instant termination of her mission along with great questions about her seaworthiness and ability to return to base.

In the US line of battleships, the New York class had widely distributed armour while the following Nevada class had "all or nothing" armour which was considered to be more optimal but left more places entirely unprotected.

There are many "should haves" here. Admiral Graf Spee should have gone home when she had the chance. Bismarck should have pursued and sunk Prince of Wales when she had the chance....

- Ivan.

WWII saw the end of battleships as the main weapon at sea. Most Axis major ships ended at the bottom of some ocean, sea, fjord...

Submarines and aircraft carriers were now ruling the waves.

And now;

May 2011 bring you all the best in your life!!!
And peace on Earth... of course!

[Ivan]

Happy 2011 to you all also.

I still like Battleships though. BTW, at the end of her fight, Admiral Graf Spee was still making 22 knots away from the two CLs at around 7:00 AM. I suspect she could have done better before the fight.

It was a glorious (or perhaps wasteful) time. There were only ever 150-180 Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers built by all the nations on this planet. Most never fought their own kind. All are retired. Most are dead now. Many died without ever having fired a gun in anger. Many were never even finished in construction and went immediately to the scrap yard. Most took at least two years or more to build and waited years to fight. Some took a decade to build. When they fought, their lifespans were measured in minutes.

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

Update on the Dornier 17Z:

I've been doing some metal cutting on the nose and belly sections of the planes. It got too complicated to do the windows at the same time as the panels. I also found out that the limits on component size were not as low as I had thought, so I need to revise the templates for part of the nose section.

This is the fuselage assembly and to add more pieces, I had to delete components shared with other assemblies such as the Cowls and Wing Tips. Note that you would not want to delete the Inner Wing and Wing Fillet components because there would be no way to tell if panels did not quite line up as I found when I was building the Dark Red Fuselage Section.

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

Turned out there were a few more "Doesn't Fit" type events in finishing up the nose on the Dornier. About half of the nose was rebuilt yet again.

Here is a revisit of an earlier project. I liked the look of the exhausts on the P-40C, and the P-40E got jealous, so it got a new set of exhausts also.

- Ivan.

[No Dice]

Turned out there were a few more "Doesn't Fit" type events in finishing up the nose on the Dornier. About half of the nose was rebuilt yet again.

Here is a revisit of an earlier project. I liked the look of the exhausts on the P-40C, and the P-40E got jealous, so it got a new set of exhausts also.

- Ivan.

And I Love it, Any improvements you make to your planes I would love to be the first to get my hands on.
I will email you later about a repaint of one of my favorites and posting it on my site.


Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com

[Ivan]

Hi No Dice,

Which plane were you planning on repainting?

Regarding the P-40E, I originally had intended to put some 3D exhausts on the plane, but the problem was that the nose section is so complicated to avoid bleeds that I really could not do that. I had enough AF99 resources left over to create the pieces as structures, but could not add those pieces because they would create bleeds. After doing the P-40C, I figured I had a method that would work to eliminate bleeds AND put in exhausts. Turns out that my method didn't work because while the P-40C has two intake dividers, the P-40E has three and that makes a big difference in assembly.

Took me a while, but I believe I finally found a reasonable solution. Pity that a screenshot really doesn't show hardly any of the work that was done other than some new exhausts. The flight model was also changed a bit as was the DP file to better reflect ammunition weight.

- Ivan.

[No Dice]

Sorry I have not emailed you yet, It's your P47D model 27 version. Hard to find a good 47 model and yours is great.
I simply want to do a repaint to represent the 47's in the later war period flying out of Sardinia to go along with my scenery. Of course I would include the original textures but also would include a panel and sound mods by myself.
I am only half way through Sardinia but I think I will do an entierly new release on the scenery. Have been able to update some of the textures and repair some of the damage done when it was boot-legged. Not near as hard as creating an aircraft but I am quite proud of it. this release will include moving objects, waterfalls and more ... but not enough to crash a computer during missions.

This release will include Northern and central Italy, Elba, Corsica and the top half of Sardinia.

I will try to email you later.

Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com

[Ivan]

Thanks for the comments about my Bubbletop P-47. Glad you like it. I am also surprised there aren't a whole lot of good models of this plane out there.

Funny you should mention the P-47D-27. I have been reworking that plane recently. After finishing the plane a few years ago, I had noticed that there was something really not quite right about it. The shape was CLOSE, but something around the canopy area just didn't look right. I got a few photographs of bubbletop Thunderbolts and a few good drawings and noticed that the canopy was way too large and the framing was shaped wrong. Recently I looked through a copy of the WarbirdTech book about the P-47 and found when checking the fuselage stations that the dimensions on my Thunderbolt were not quite right. They really aren't all that close. I corrected what I could and left it for a while because there were a bunch of bleeds I could not figure out how to correct. I am still not entirely certain I have found them all yet which is why the plane is untextured right now. I have already added two components and a whole lot of extra parts to try to cure the problems.

Notice how different colours are shown for the same pieces when they are viewed from different angles? That is because some subset of the parts are assembled and glued differently to cure a bleed from a particular angle.

If you observe the shape of the canopy, you will notice that the contours are a bit different from what was released and hopefully closer to the real thing. If you check against a dimensional drawing, you will notice that things are pretty far off in places. The cockpit for example is too far to the rear. I still think it is a pretty plane though.

- Ivan.

[No Dice]

But I did not think it required any. Looks great Ivan !! I can't wait for the new release ( and then maybe I can talk you into making a floater for me)

Please keep'um coming

Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com

[Ivan]

Attached are some screenshots of recent changes to the Dornier 17Z. With all that smooth panelling, I have to do some cutting for the windows.

Attached also is the P-47D-27 on a test flight last night. I believe I need to give the plane more drag in the landing configuration and to add some nose tuck in compressibility effects, Checklists, adjust trim.....

For grins, I took it into quick combat against a Fokker Eindecker. In a low level dogfight against a flea, this critter is ponderous. You get into trouble really quick when trying to follow a puff ball.

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

The last two planes I mentioned are actually current projects. Both seem to be stuck with little problems.

The Issue with the Eindecker is deciding what the hitting power of the single 7.92 mm Machine gun should be. The firing rates are easy to figure out. The Stock Me 109E has cowl guns of the same caliber which have 10 Hit Points. The 1% Aircraft spreadsheets suggest the number is more like around 3 Hit Points. I figure the AI Range for this gun should be pretty low since there is only a Ring and Bead sight (about the same as a typical Bomber's Swivel guns) instead of a Reflector Sight.

As a related discussion, my belief is that the stock CFS aircraft guns have too little power which seems to be supported by the difficulty in destroying aircraft such as the B-17. Historically, the Germans found that their 20 mm cannon took about 15-20 hits to kill a Viermot (4 engine bomber). Their 30 mm cannon only took about 3 hits on average to kill a Viermot and only a single hit to kill a Fighter. Bombers' aerial gunners seem to also have way too much accuracy. Since we really can't turn that down, I believe that we should turn the AI range down a bit. 250-300 Yards for a swivel gun with a Ring and Bead sight (which in my opinion is STILL very generous) and 500 yards or perhaps a touch shorter for a powered turret with a decent gun sight.

What do you all think?

The P-47D-27 has some flight performance problems that I am still trying to work out. The plane has very poor stability in pitch at high altitudes 30,000 feet and higher. I also am trying to tune the plane to exhibit the directional instability that the real plane had. A tech from Republic told pilots NOT to use full rudder travel or yaw the plane more than about 10 degrees at high speed. If they did, there was a pretty good chance the plane would do an outside snap roll. The problem was reduced but not entirely eliminated even with the fin extension on later planes. There is one characteristic I do not believe I can reproduce which is the tendency for the Thunderbolt in compressibility to pitch down severely if power was reduced.

- Ivan.

[No Dice]

But, I shot off an email to one of the greats in that area. I will update you when I get his opinion.

I think what ever you do will be fine with me.


Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com

[Ivan]

Actually No Dice, I don't really need help with these projects. I was just asking some opinions and reporting a status. What I need most is probably a cook, baby sitting and a tutor for my kids. BTW, who are you consulting with?

- Ivan.

[No Dice]

Ivan,
I may have used the wrong wording, Input or opinion may be better.

I contacted Bruno, back in the day of the Original "Free Flight Site" I made many friends and contacts that not unlike yourself I still keep in contact with. Although most have retired and moved on from CFS or even FS they
still live by the rules of this great community and are more than willing to help out a fellow if they can.

I will try your PM on this site again, but I think i does not work.

We made need to start another thread, I am still looking for WW Cline, SpitFire1 ( Ananth) and a few more.
Maybe we can start a MIA thread.

Dave

www.thefreeflightsite.com

[Ivan]

Hi No Dice,

You mean Bruno Duffort? He sure did put together a lot of airplanes for CFS. We actually have one of the Greatest here at this site, Jerry Beckwith. The problem that I am working on for the P-47 isn't very difficult. I don't really need help to figure it out. It is a matter of adjusting and testing, lather, rinse, repeat.......

I didn't know my PMs here didn't work. I was pretty sure they did because I periodically get one. You can always send to my email at Ivan1GFP@yahoo.com.

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

Hello No Dice,

I just finished a Service Ceiling test with the P-47D-27 this morning. The plane is now stable enough to run autopilot OR manual piloting by adjusting trim up to 42,000 feet. Perhaps it is a bit too stable now, but it WAS a high altitude fighter.

Service Ceiling (100 feet per minute) == 41,530 feet
Absolute Ceiling (3 feet per minute) == 42,000 feet

That is pretty much inline with published specs or perhaps a touch low. Typical specs quote a 42,000 feet service ceiling. The plane had 220 gallons of 370 gallons of internal fuel, so it might have gone higher if I had more patience or less fuel.

From what I have seen, Service Ceiling specifications tend to be pretty optimistic. As a case in point, when the Germans used Ju-86 bombers in various theaters, the RAF should have had plenty of fighters capable of interceptions but needed to rework a few planes to actually attempt the interceptions.

I kind of knew the solution but didn't want to use it because it pretty much invalidates all testing I had done thus far. Time to redo all of the earlier tests for speed, trim, etc. In case anyone is curious, the solution was to move the center of lift from 1 inch ahead of the center of gravity to 3 inches behind.

- Ivan.

[No Dice]

As usual Ivan you are talking about 42000 feet above my brain capacity, Hell I ain't nere as smart as all ya''ll on the " Round Table" of the " Order Of Sims". Shoot I was lucky to make it out of D'Iberville High School, probably had something to do with the fact they had a student smoking area and the PTA sold beer at the football games ?

All I know is everyone can't wait until your next release, because they don't get released until they are perfect.

"Laissez Les bon Temps Rouler" my friend !

So, in wrapping up, I'll take your word for it. It's going to be a great fly.

Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com

[Ivan]

Actually perhaps I am not nearly as smart as I thought I was. Turns out that I wrote a bit too soon. The signs for the change didn't quite look right, but I wrote the message anyway. Seems like I got everything backwards. I believe now that the real cause of the instability is a 100 gallon fuel tank under the cockpit which is 3 to 4 feet behind the CoG CoL. The full tank causes a very far aft loading when it is full. Still playing.....

- Ivan.

[Ivan]

With the discussion about Float Planes, I decided to finish up my A6M2 Model 21 Zero. I keep running into limitations of the AF99 software. Here is an example: The plane looked fine a couple days ago but I noticed that the Aft Wall of the cockpit isn't textured. Neither is the Control Panel.

When I assigned textures, here is what I got..... Time to see where I ca be a bit more economical.

- Ivan.

[hubbabubba]

Or time to use SCASM...

I know your objections, but, from my point of view, this is where our philosophies take different roads. AF99 preaches what it doesn't do; economy. To facilitate its work, it forces you to redo the same parts again and again, which is a highway for reaching AF99 limits sooner than later.

SCASM not only liberates you from AF99 "limits", it permits to, most of the time, draw once-and-for-all the part, which is really economic.

I'm tempted to start a thread where people could learn to draw their own "aircraft-like" objects. Nothing fancy, all done with freewares, just for the fun of it. Like crosswords or plastic-modeling.

Anyone interested?:ernae:

[No Dice]

Between you and Ivan, I am sure we could all learn some interesting stuff. I remember years back when a gentleman used scasm to add a banner that flied behind his plane and the IG4 guys added pilot heads to some reworks they did.

I would love to learn how to apply scasm to macros ( other than a box) and eliminate the bleed in CFS1. CFS2 seems not to have that problem.

Ivan, the plane is looking great to me.

Dave www.thefreeflightsite.com