And there goes Chief's initiation.....

[Roadburner440]

So in the multi faceted attack against our Navy's time honored traditions they are calling for an end to the Chiefs initiation. I do not have a subscription to the electronic copy of the Navy Times, but will be buying the paper tomorrow... I find it interesting seeing that ever since I have been in (2003) they just keep chipping away at the foundation that once was the United States Navy. Granted I am fighting for something I know nothing about. However this is going to build conflict instead of comradery in the E-7+ ranks I would think. As you will have all of those who have gone before that went through this training process, and the new generation that essentially sat in some classes and then put on anchors. Guess we will see what becomes of it. I would say it would probably pass as this has been discussed for years. However it is coming from the MCPON this time, and being who he is it may be for real this time. Just something else I will miss out on I suppose.

http://www.navytimes.com/prime/2013/...ation-010713w/

[strikehawk]

Road Runner, I found out the month after I put in my retirement papers that I had passed the Chiefs exam and while I was saddened it was not earth shattering. As far back as the mid '90's the emphasis to be a CPO was not on how well you knew your job or your ability to get good results out of your troops, no it was on what you did in the community, I supported single mothers 1$ at a time ( like they approved of that), or if had a a college degree, that's why you have officers. Also, if you did make Chief you were taken out of your rate, the one that you were the expert in and the one you expected to train and mentor your younger Sailors, and put you in the Goat Locker and made you the Div CPO for Airframes or Power Plants not Ordnance like you trained to do. In 1998 as a son of a CPO and Padewan of some of the finest Chiefs in the Fleet I took a look at the Chiefs job and found that I did not want it. There were too many changes and assaults on Tradition and Ceremony for me to stomach, add to that the fact that too many a** kissers who only looked out for themselves not their troops to want to be one. My father and the Chiefs that I respected understood my feelings and that really made things a little better when I look back on that time.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for the Navy's CPOs, almost every Sailor I trained made Chief and I have attended many a retirement for those guys. One of the things that the Navy, specifically the Chiefs, have done is remind a retiring Chief that he is expected to be as active in the CPO Mess as possible and I know more than a few that in their own time, after they retire go back to their units and help train and educate the new CPOs for that FY. As long as there are CPOs that know what the rate really is there will be a strong CPO Mess in the Navy, looking at what my former Airmen and Third Classes are doing as Chiefs I will stand by this remark.

[Willy]

I made Chief back in '89 and even then there was talk of ending the tradition of CPO initiations. While I never agreed with some of the methods back then, I did and still do see it's purpose and usefulness. By the time I retired in '97, PC had started setting in and it was just a shadow of what I went through. I imagine that by now it's probably got to the point of why bother.

But what gets me is that it was always voluntary. If you didn't want to go through initiation, you didn't have too. When I made Chief there were 14 of us that year who made Chief onboard USS Frank Cable. All but one went through initiation on their own free will and all of us said afterwards, that it was worth it.

[Willy]

Strikehawk, you posted as I was typing. As for past retirement, I'll just say this: Once a Chief, Always a Chief.

[PRB]

There is a history behind the Chief's “initiation” that I think has been lost for some time. When I was going through it in 1989, I have to be honest, I thought it was a a load of BS. So I did some research on where it came from. They say that it's the Chiefs who “run the navy”, and that has always been true. Being in some “no-mans land” between enlisted and officers, Chiefs learned to work together. They had to work together. One way to encourage this in newly selected CPOs was to require that they meet each and every Chief in his command, and to prove that you had done so by getting their “autograph” in your book. These meetings were important. They introduced you to the people you were going to rely on for help, and to the people you would help. Now THAT made a hell of a lot of sense to me! But over the decades it has degenerated into some sort of hazing ritual where getting the signatures of your fellow CPOs became an opportunity for them for mess with you ways large and small, and nothing more. After learning of the true reason for the exercise, I was saddened at what it had become. It's not like the crossing the line shananigans, which are really supposed to be fun and games. The Chief's initiation used to have a deeper significance. If you ask me, instead of “doing away with” the initiation, they should return it to what it used to be.

[Navy Chief]

Strikehawk, you posted as I was typing. As for past retirement, I'll just say this: Once a Chief, Always a Chief.

Ditto...

NC

I attended the CPO initiation for NAS Atlanta, way back in 2000. It was a joke. A far cry from what it used to be. I am saddened at what has happened to traditions.

[Roadburner440]

Interesting takes.. I have no idea seeing as I have never gone through it. I did do the crossing of the line shennanigans, and heard tales of how it used to be way back. Seems in the Navy anymore that is all we do is talk about how things were way back. Guess you guys are right that maybe it has devolved in to something less than what it was supposed to be. However it is up to all of us to right the ship. Guess it is times like these we should reflect on what is the best course of action... However it seems that many people have not gotten the message in the passing of the watch. As it seems those that have relieved those that have went before have not carried on where others left off. I just see this as a normalization of the Chief though. Almost like my uncle in the Air Force, or E-7's in other branches. Just be another working body in the shop before it is over with.

[Panther_99FS]

Wow!
I'm an Air Force E-7 (MSgt) and I've always held a special kind of respect for USN Chiefs.......

Signs of the times I suppose....

[strikehawk]

Strikehawk, you posted as I was typing. As for past retirement, I'll just say this: Once a Chief, Always a Chief.

Willy, you are absolutely right, my father was referred to as Chief until his death and because his urn for burial at sea was so unique he was placed on the Quarter Deck at the building they hold a Sailors remains until he takes his last cruise. My mother was told by the receptionist that he was greeted every morning with "good morning Chief" and a cup of coffee place next to him. As I said earlier, I have former jr Sailors that are Chiefs and proudly wear their Anchors on their Retired hat. No matter what us retirees say or complain the Navy of our youth is a memory, what was a tradition in our time is a Capt's Mast charge today.

One more thing and I'll try to go back into my hole,

I wear my 1st Class Crow on my last units cover everyday, that device reminds me that I have to set an example everyday I walk out the door. When we all get together at a friends retirement of unit CoC one is not addressed by their first name until they are greeted by their rank. I will always be "AO1", but it is a great pleasure to call the last AO3 I mentored "Chief", hopefully soon he'll be Sr Chief.

[TARPSBird]

Of all my achievements in the 26 years I was in the Navy, I am most proud of making Chief and being initiated in 1981. Granted it was a grueling and humbling experience but at the end of the day when you finally put on the hat and anchors and the Chief Petty Officer's Creed is read, it all comes together. I don't care what the current MCPON or anybody else says, you're not gonna get that from attending some bullsh*t CPO Academy in the weeks before your advancement date.

Jerry Nolan (TARPSBird)
ISC (SW) USN (Ret.)
"Initiated and damn proud of it!" :salute:

[Navy Chief]

In my opinion, political correctness is the underlying factor for most if the changes. It has affected our entire culture, and (for all the good it was supposed to bring about), I believe the opposite has occurred.

Our politicians have made changes to the military that have only served to complicate matters, and make things worse. The military should NOT be used for "social experiments".

My usual comment is, "The system was not broken, and should have been left alone."

Even the Chief Petty Officer Creed was revised. Political correctness is ruining this nation.

AMEC(AW) Peter C. Ward, USN, (Ret.)

[FSX68]

So in the multi faceted attack against our Navy's time honored traditions they are calling for an end to the Chiefs initiation. I do not have a subscription to the electronic copy of the Navy Times, but will be buying the paper tomorrow... I find it interesting seeing that ever since I have been in (2003) they just keep chipping away at the foundation that once was the United States Navy. Granted I am fighting for something I know nothing about. However this is going to build conflict instead of comradery in the E-7+ ranks I would think. As you will have all of those who have gone before that went through this training process, and the new generation that essentially sat in some classes and then put on anchors. Guess we will see what becomes of it. I would say it would probably pass as this has been discussed for years. However it is coming from the MCPON this time, and being who he is it may be for real this time. Just something else I will miss out on I suppose.

http://www.navytimes.com/prime/2013/...ation-010713w/

Tell you what shipmate, I agree. My Dad (89 years old) retired as a W-4 select back in 65 and he made CPO in 3, that's THREE years. If you ever want to know how he did it I'll
let you know (Just PM me).
I can remember when all you had to do to make CPO was just take the test and you would make CPOA. The A at the end was Acting,
if you kept your nose clean (so to speak) the A was dropped and you were permanent CPO.
I was one in 10 selected for E-6 out of over ~250. That's an accomplishment in itself. I've always heard "You choose your rate; you choose your fate.
I recant with what my Dad would tell me "There are some people wouldn't make a pimple on a chief's A## yet...... they ARE chief!!

I am sooo glad that I am retired from the USN. I miss the old cast iron NAVY... Sad to say, I would not join it today, Too PC for me.
Miss seeing the dungarees like we wore in Zumwalts era. Now they wear NWU's and call then "Blueberries". Wonder who the clever ($$$)
one at the Navy Exchange thought up a way to change working uniform (again). The Coast Guard changed from Cracker Jack's just once to what they
wear now for dress uniform. In the Navy, the word uniform is an oxymoron.

[FSX68]

Willy, you are absolutely right, my father was referred to as Chief until his death and because his urn for burial at sea was so unique he was placed on the Quarter Deck at the building they hold a Sailors remains until he takes his last cruise. My mother was told by the receptionist that he was greeted every morning with "good morning Chief" and a cup of coffee place next to him. As I said earlier, I have former jr Sailors that are Chiefs and proudly wear their Anchors on their Retired hat. No matter what us retirees say or complain the Navy of our youth is a memory, what was a tradition in our time is a Capt's Mast charge today.

One more thing and I'll try to go back into my hole,

I wear my 1st Class Crow on my last units cover everyday, that device reminds me that I have to set an example everyday I walk out the door. When we all get together at a friends retirement of unit CoC one is not addressed by their first name until they are greeted by their rank. I will always be "AO1", but it is a great pleasure to call the last AO3 I mentored "Chief", hopefully soon he'll be Sr Chief.

Hello there fellow Navy Gun-Plumber.

[Willy]

Ah, the Zumwalt Navy! I remember those days well as I did my first enlistment then.

Chief in 3 years? I've heard of people making Chief about that fast in WW II, but then there was a war on. I jumped straight from FR to EN3 in just over a month after I left boot camp and was behind the power curve on that for a good while. And we had a guy who came in as a HT2 in my boot camp company. I can kind of imagine what it would be like to make Chief that fast and after my experience as a "pushbutton" 3rd, I don't know if I'd want to put on the anchors that fast.

W.C. "Willy" McCoy
ENC(SW) USN Ret.

ETA: My son in law just got out as a Corpsman and had to wear those blue cammies. I can't help but think that if someone fell overboard while wearing those, they'd be awful hard to spot in the water.

[FSX68]

Ah, the Zumwalt Navy! I remember those days well as I did my first enlistment then.

Chief in 3 years? I've heard of people making Chief about that fast in WW II, but then there was a war on. I jumped straight from FR to EN3 in just over a month after I left boot camp and was behind the power curve on that for a good while. And we had a guy who came in as a HT2 in my boot camp company. I can kind of imagine what it would be like to make Chief that fast and after my experience as a "pushbutton" 3rd, I don't know if I'd want to put on the anchors that fast.

W.C. "Willy" McCoy
ENC(SW) USN Ret.

ETA: My son in law just got out as a Corpsman and had to wear those blue cammies. I can't help but think that if someone fell overboard while wearing those, they'd be awful hard to spot in the water.

I asked my Dad how he made CPO in 3 years and he told me that (back in the 40's) he was assigned to an aviation squadron in need of CPO's (they did not have any or enough - don't remember which) so they lowered the TIR/TIS so that he could take the E-7 exam uber early. He started out as a Aviation Radioman riding in the Harpoons then the P2V's. He went to Radar school in
Treasure Island for Radar school - it was a hush hush thing back then in WW2. He then became an AT, the AR's disbanded and evolved into AT's. Taught AT A school here in Millington back in the
mid 50's. Put on W-1 in '57 and was sent to Naha. He did 25 years and retired as a W-4 select. I think my MOM had enough of him on 12/13 months cruises. Like one he did on the Coral Sea (MARU) with VF-151 - was avionics officer with F4B Phantom outfit.

[Panther_99FS]

Our politicians have made changes to the military that have only served to complicate matters, and make things worse. The military should NOT be used for "social experiments".

Well ah.....
There was the "Tuskegee Experiment"....

[CWOJackson]

"Ask a Chief" was a common phrase on both the mess deck and in the wardroom for decades.

The Chief's initiation was based on core values, and lessons, that were as old as the Navy itself. It also served as a welcome into a unique community and fellowship.

That isn't to say that some initiations didn't get out of hand or over-the-top; unfortunately, there were some where this did happen. Usually those mistakes were quickly corrected in the Chief's mess.

That the Navy, in particular the MCPO of the Navy, no longer understands the meaning, purpose and value of the exercise is a shame.

[PRB]

BINGO, CWO Jackson. This has been my point all along. On the other hand, hmm, lets see. I made CPO in 1989, and left the USN in 1994. That would mean I got to participate in four CPO initiations, where, gee, I would get to F*** with new CPO selectees. What fun! Well, I never did. When new CPO selectees showed up to get my signature, I tried to explain what it was supposed to be about. Not a college hazing exercise, with no deeper meaning than the administration of a frikken “wedgie”. I think that made me a bit of an odd-ball. So be it. Don't get me wrong, the knowledge and wisdom were imparted to new CPO selectees, eventually, even by the “Fast Times at Ridgemont High” CPO crowd, who were great chiefs with priceless wisdom. They just “lost their way”, IMHO, during the selectee period, and knew not the purpose of this important time. Ahh, I'm p**ing in the wind. One reason I left the navy shortly after becoming CPO. The fun sort of drained away.

- Paul

[Roadburner440]

The tradition behind things is where I think the message certaintly gets lost. Even earlier on in my career people were able to opt out of things if they chose not to do them. I know a few times I debated opted out of things I decided to go through with doing them and it all ended for the better... We will see where it goes though. Certaintly glad to get some experience input and mentorship from you guys though. I never realized we had so many CPO's and a CWO on here.

[Willy]

Paul, you weren't the only one to not see it as just a chance to give someone hell. Yes, I did do some of that, but I always had a lesson for the selectee behind it so he could gain a little wisdom and tried to do it in such a way that he/she too saw some humor in the situation. That was the way my sponsor brought me into the CPO community and I tried my best to pass his lessons on.

BTW, my sponsor, ICCS Crum, and I still maintain contact. It's a community that extends beyond your service.

[CWOJackson]

I put the anchors on in 82 and shoulder boards in 86; never regretted either and always remained active in the initiation process.

I didn't mind the fun and games during the initiation process, as long as they weren't personally demeaning, but my normal punishment to an initiate was to have them help non-rates with their course studies.

As far as the initiation ceremony itself, the key to success with them was having the right Sheriff. Not only did the Sheriff insure that the guilty were properly brought to justice, but that any members of the court who threatened to get out of hand, were quickly brought under control themselves.

[rdaniell]

....These kinds of ceremonies, etc., have been around for as long as there have been military services. They serve a very important psychological function.
Yes, of course, they can sometimes get a little "brutal" but, are still a necessary part of imparting a sense of belonging to something bigger than one's self.

Being an optimist, I am confident that the passing of the "code" will continue. Just not with any "official" approval. Who knows maybe someday even the upper echelons of the military establishment might find their b***s.

Just two cents from an hardened old tradionalist.

RD

[PRB]

....These kinds of ceremonies, etc., have been around for as long as there have been military services. They serve a very important psychological function.
Yes, of course, they can sometimes get a little "brutal" but, are still a necessary part of imparting a sense of belonging to something bigger than one's self.

Being an optimist, I am confident that the passing of the "code" will continue. Just not with any "official" approval. Who knows maybe someday even the upper echelons of the military establishment might find their b***s.

Just two cents from an hardened old tradionalist.

RD

A Fair point RD. Heck, after crossing the line, I never really got into the fun of messing with the slimy wogs on subsequent line crossings. Just not my "thing" I guess. My problem with the CPO "initiation" was that it was exactly like wog day, except that it lasted a month... No wizdom was imparted, no explanation was made. I do remember being told at one point that "on the last day, the reason for all this will be revealed, and you will be filled with enlightenment and great wisdom, the likes of which you have never before felt!" Well, after the "last day", I walked out to my car as the sun was setting, on my way to the emergency room with a piece of dried grass stuck in my eye (long story), thinking, "hmm, maybe I missed it, I don't feel too enlightened right now..." And they spelled my name wrong on my Chief's Creed plaque. It seemed fitting. I'm sure my experience was "different" that many others, and that's a good thing.

To be fair, I was younger in 1989 than I am now. And thinking back on those days, there were a couple of Master Chiefs that were trying to teach me something, but I missed some of it, in the heat of the moment..

- Paul

[CWOJackson]

A Fair point RD. Heck, after crossing the line, I never really got into the fun of messing with the slimy wogs on subsequent line crossings. Just not my "thing" I guess. My problem with the CPO "initiation" was that it was exactly like wog day, except that it lasted a month... No wizdom was imparted, no explanation was made. I do remember being told at one point that "on the last day, the reason for all this will be revealed, and you will be filled with enlightenment and great wisdom, the likes of which you have never before felt!" Well, after the "last day", I walked out to my car as the sun was setting, on my way to the emergency room with a piece of dried grass stuck in my eye (long story), thinking, "hmm, maybe I missed it, I don't feel too enlightened right now..." And they spelled my name wrong on my Chief's Creed plaque. It seemed fitting. I'm sure my experience was "different" that many others, and that's a good thing.

To be fair, I was younger in 1989 than I am now. And thinking back on those days, there were a couple of Master Chiefs that were trying to teach me something, but I missed some of it, in the heat of the moment..

- Paul

It's a shame that your initiation was spoiled and not that meaningful; but all of us who were there know this happened sometimes.

One of the big advantages to the Coast Guard was the size and nature of it's units. The Chief's mess on a cutter wouldn't equal the CPO's in a division on a larger Navy ship. With SAR stations you're talking one or two chiefs so the lead up to initiations required a little travel between units; the combined final day being held at a common meeting place.

Now if you were at a major installation (base, three or four cutters...huge for us) the courtroom could be crowded with as many as three dozen CPO's...and some of them would be local retirees.

That size factor made it easier to keep things a little more on track and a "little" less Animal House; not that we didn't have some fun. Another thing, perhaps because of our size, the typical initiation almost always included invitations to some folks from the wardroom (CO, XO, DivOffs for initiates). The officers always had a good time despite being at the tender mercies of the mess, but it was also an educational opportunity for them and a chance for the wardroom and Chief's mess to reinforce their own relationship.

Yes, I wish there weren't any excesses that ruined the occasion for some, I just wonder what our people are losing if we just abandon the institution.

[CWOJackson]

http://communities.washingtontimes.c...ment-771142230

Interesting editorial regarding this in the Washington Times today. Although it doesn't address the negatives that did happen, it does a very good job at explaining the elements of the process and the associated purposes.