Aeronautical debate: emergency landing into trees or water?

[tigisfat]

Here's the situation. You're flying over the British Columbia in a Cessna 172. It's supposed to be a short flight with a friend for some supplies out of your cabin's small bush strip. Everything's going fine until the engine starts to run rough and cough. Your scan reveals nothing incorrect, and you haven't done anything wrong either. Regardless, now the engine is detonating LOUDLY. You instruct your friend to being looking for a place to put the aircraft down just in case while you continue to desperately fight the dying engine. Your wild attempts to keep it running fail in a crescendo of clanging that ends with a loud pop. Now you're looking at the prop (not moving) pointing straight up. The engine can't be restarted, either. You start trimming for best glide and look at your friend, who shrugs at you and tells you there flat out isn't anywhere to land. There's an endless sea of rocky peaks and steep slopes covered with trees. A valley comes into view and it's apparent you'll have to land in it or face the rocky cliffs. There's a flat area and a small lake of unknown depth. It becomes rapidly apparent you have to make your decision soon. There are only two options. You can land in the 50 foot tall trees or land in the water.

Which do you choose and why?

[djscoo]

I'd choose the water. I could imagine the fixed gear would cause the aircraft to cartwheel once it hits the water. If it was retractable gear, water would be a no-brainer.

[PRB]

How big is "the flat area", presumably next to the lake? Maybe I'd attempt a landing there. Short that, water. Because it's softer than wood and rocks... This seems too easy though. Something tells me you're going to tell us we were supposed to pick granite and oak over water, but I can't imagine why, given the details supplied in the scenario.

[viking3]

Trees will absorb most of the impact energy so I'll go with them. I've done a few spectacular bellyflops so I know how hard the water can be.

Regards, Rob:ernae:

[HouseHobbit]

GO for the trees, if you are lucky you can pick off a few squirrels while crashing..
And have them for dinner while you wait for Help.
allways thinking of food here.. LOL..LOL..

[Willy]

I'd be asking my friend if he could swim as he's fixing to get wet

[T Square]

This reminds me of an old Truckdrive joke I heard many years ago.

"During a test at a truck driver school this question was asked. "You and your partner who is asleep are at the top of a steap valley at the bottom of the valley there is a one lane bridge over a deep gorge. Seeing that a truck is coming down the other side of the gorge, you apply your brakes to find you have no brakes. You signal the truck on the other side of the gorge "no brakes can't stop". The truck on the other side of the gorge signals back "no brakes can't stop". The question is what do you do next ? One student says I would wake my partner up ! The instructor Asks why ? Student answers "I bet my partner ain't never seen a wreck like the one we're about to have and I know he probably wouldn't want to miss the chance to see it." :ernae:

[Railrunner130]

The water is your best bet. By the sounds of it, there may be a suitable landing area off to the side, which would easily be the best of the three options. Trees serve as an impaling hazard. Not to mention, it's easier to get out of an aircraft in water than 100 feet up in trees.

To slightly lessen your chances of a bad landing, crank the starter so that the prop is horizontal, not vertical. For a water landing, pop the doors slightly open and try to stuff something in the door crack, so that a jarring of the airframe does not seal the doors shut.

[jmig]

The tops of fir trees bend. That water is damn cold.

If you do try the water, be sure and open the doors before impact.

[N2056]

I say you go into the water. As was pointed out earlier key the starter to get the prop horizontal and prop open the door a bit. I would try to make the approach such that I would hopefully end up near the shore!

[gigabyte]

Well if you want to know what "Can" happen for that choice in real life - if you have the right aim and put a 172 in between 2 trees, the wings come off rather cleanly, and you can walk away - the 172 doesn't do so well, but the crash is survivable. True Story! 1996 or 97, my cousin was riding right seat for a student trying to get in his hours for his license (I do not know all the details Brian is not an instructor he was just helping the guy out as he was not yet allowed to solo), they flew from Sherwater in Dartmouth, NS to Yarmouth, did a touch & go and on the return ran low on fuel, actually ran OUT of fuel. The pilot kind of lost it, and Brian kept his head, they ended up doing a belly flop in a ladies back yard after cleaning the wings off the "Rental" 172 coming in between two large birch trees. The choice was St. Margaret's Bay, a selection of small back yards along the shore, or the two trees, Brian said afterward he didn't think the water was a good idea, because the landing gear would have caused the plane to flip, the yards were small and none large enough to land & stop, so he went for the trees. The NTSB inspector told him later he made the best choice, and he and the pilot walked away so there was little doubt.

I have been up with him several times since, the only times I have flown in small planes, the wife said I was crazy, I always say the same thing, I would prefer to fly with him he knows how to crash the safe way

[tigisfat]

How big is "the flat area", presumably next to the lake? Maybe I'd attempt a landing there. Short that, water. Because it's softer than wood and rocks... This seems too easy though. Something tells me you're going to tell us we were supposed to pick granite and oak over water, but I can't imagine why, given the details supplied in the scenario.

Nope, I am a pilot but I don't presume to have a 'correct' answer in light of the varying opinions of the masses and the other pilots here with more experience than I. There may not be a correct answer to this. I definitely wouldn't try to set it down on the mountain tops.

You asked about the flat area: it's presumed to be wooded and with only a lake.


What I would do? I'd come in over the lake pointed at the woods and land it to a full stall (and then some) and go skipping/sliding up onto the shore and into the trees. I'd try to point it between two trees to dissipate energy better.

[Ken Stallings]

Well, clearly, it would be very poor pilot planning to get yourself into such a situation. There are few areas embedded with dense forests to the extent you have no other viable options if you simply give yourself enough altitude and/or modify your VFR routing slightly.

However, I will choose the water, and I will try to land parallel to a bank vice the middle of the water on a river or lake. That doesn't mean that landing in trees is an automatic death sentence, but it is leaving a lot outside your ability to control as a pilot.

Water ditchings, even in a fixed gear high wing aircraft like a Skyhawk, isn't horrible. The plane will nose down and the stop will be sudden and shocking. So, make damn sure your lap and shoulder harnesses are cinched tightly and I mean digging in tight.

Then, whether it is the trees or the water, unlock and open both doors. Yes, the water will likely slam the door shut, but with the latch unlocked you can likely push the door open even if it binds. Also, open up you window so that as the aircraft settles into the water, you can let the pressure equalize as the water comes in and push open the door. Once you have stopped unfasten your harness immediately and push open the door quick as possoble.

With luck, you can get the door open quickly. If not, then relax and allow the water level to equalize and remember that the high wing will prevent the aircraft from sinking for at least a half hour or so, so you won't drown if you keep your wits about you. If it is nightime, the turn on your landing lights. The key is to stall as you hit the water and use the rudder to keep the nose pointed straight ahead long as possible, Also, make sure both main gear touch the water at the same time and always anticipate you will skip off the water on the first touchdown. It's always the hit before the stop that's the most severe.

Landing in trees of a dense forest requires that you essentially treat the tops of the trees like a runway surface and you attempt to touch down on the tip spine of a tree at stall speed. The goal is to literally stick the plane on top of the trees. If you are dealing with spindly trees, the plane will collapse on top of the trees and you will break branches as you come down. What you don't want to do under any circumstances is come down between trees and smack one in the trunk right in front of you.

There have been cases of survival without severe injuries doing this on a tree, but it is the most risky type of crash landing.

Under either situation, abandon all hope of the aircraft surviving. You are flying an insurance write off.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

BTW: Allow me to expand some on my first point. I have flown over about every part of the United States and at least in the US, there is no where that there isn't a dirt road, paved road, logging trail, or flat field in glide distance if you are constantly evaluating and adjusting your routing and altitude and asking yourself, where would I put this thing if the engine suddenly quit.

Having your site selected in your mind is half the battle.

Cheers,

Ken

[Piglet]

Turn off Crash Detection...
Problem solved...

[harleyman]

Turn off Crash Detection...
Problem solved...

Perfect answer ...............

[PRB]

Turn off Crash Detection...
Problem solved...

Hehe. And turn down the autogen so there won't be any trees!

Ok, seriously. If the plane is a fixed wheel tail dragger, I would think this would affect the desicion, as it would be likely to flip over on a water landing. A logging road would probably be bad, even if you could see it from above. It would probably be steep and have sudden turns. I sort of like the "land on the beach in a stall and hope to be going slow by the time we reach the trees" method.

[kilo delta]

I can't swim.....so it'll be the trees for me!

[Snuffy]

If I have the glide time, I might go for the coming in low over the lake and head for the nearest shore and hope I can belly in on the beach/shore and grind to a stop before hitting the trees.

[gigabyte]

I probably have not been so "one way vs the other" in my post, every situation will be different, and there was no mention of wind condition or direction in the initial question, which I think would factor in some cases. In my example of the actual crash landing that my cousin did, the crash investigator told him without a doubt he had done the right thing, apparently the water conditions (an Atlantic Ocean Bay) at night with no way to judge the depth or accurately determine if there were rock at the surface and, the hilly conditions in the available area made his choice the best one. I do recall him mentioning his timing was perfect as he was able to stall the aircraft at just the right moment to minimize the violence of the impact with the trees.

[Ken Stallings]

Landing on the ocean would be considerably different than the average mountain or forest area lake or river. No question about that.

Of course, with the ocean, you should absolutely chose to land on the beach if available. If it's a rocky crag dropping directly into the ocean, yep, you don't want to ditch there. Even if you get out of the aircraft, you're likely going to get slammed into the rocks and get killed that way.

Still, I come back to the notion that I have never been forced to fly over an area where glide distance put me over such a dire situation of trees, lake, river.

Ken

[OBIO]

Being a bit more of a problem solver, here is how I would handle that situation. I would have the person in the right hand seat take over the plane, then I would tell him/her that I was going to go scout out a good landing/crashing area....open the door and jump. A few seconds later, I would pull the rip cord and deploy my parachute. HA HA. See I knew that earning my Chicken badge in the Boy Scouts would come in handy!

OBIO

[Major_Spittle]

I'd pick the water everytime. Better to hit the water at 60knots and flip/stop than to hit 50ft tree tops at 60knots, flip flop spin smash and then drop engine first 50ft putting the firewall through your face.

[tigisfat]

I'd pick the water everytime. Better to hit the water at 60knots and flip/stop than to hit 50ft tree tops at 60knots, flip flop spin smash and then drop engine first 50ft putting the firewall through your face.

until everything you have is wet, you're facing down hypothermia and night is approaching.

[viking3]

We get at least 1 or 2 crashes a winter in northern Manitoba, it seems, where the planes hit the spruce. Usually almost every one gets out. I think the deal here is that our Black Spruce trees are pretty spindly and scraggly and only get thinner the farther north one goes, so they make for a pretty soft landing. Not sure I tackle any 200 ft tall Sitka Spruce on the west coast. The only good thing is after the crash you have lots of firewood.

Regards, Rob:ernae: