Is It Too Late To Run This Just Released Gem?

[Moses03]

An original London-Melbourne entrant!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...ad.php?t=26156

[jkcook28]

I saw that too this morning Moses. Would crashing out in Allallabad be mandatory like the real one? :d

[MM]

Was thinking we might set up a "Team" effort. Moses, are you interested? Any other volunteers?

Trying to Pander to the crowd...

[Bry Rosier]

I`m always interested . Lets see what it`s like in FSX

[Moses03]

Time is an issue for me these days but could pitch in on a team effort. Apparently the FM is a bit dodgy though.

[Bry Rosier]

I`ve done some testing for the committee and all to peruse for this girl . She`s got some range

KTAS @ 12,000 = 216
KIAS @ 12,000 = 182
KTAS @ 19,500 = 228 (Critical )
KIAS @ 19500 = 170
Range @ 12,000 = 2320 nm !!!
Time for full fuel @ max throttles @ 12,000 10hrs 45 mins

Went to FSX no problems .

I thought my SM.79 was going to be "Mothballed" but no I lifted the "Race prepped" 2d panel and put it in the Pander and replaced the VC in the config with the Pander VC . Works a treat . Also using the SM.79 sound

[Moses03]

Thanks Bry. I dug up some specs searching over in the Flight Archives:



On a Russian site I found these numbers:

Top speed 224 mph / Cruise speed 186 mph

Looks like she is hot with a top speed of 248 mph at 12k. MM PM'ed some specs coverted from a Dutch site that match the speeds from the Russian site. The range given is 1311nm (converted from kilometers). So range is a bit optimistic as well.

[Dangerousdave26]

Lets not call it "dodgy" lets call it borrowed. Milton made it. :lol:

Until Henry or Tom can get an accurate FM done lets just get her in the air.

As its not a candidate for winning its all in the spirit of the event.

I plan on testing her tonight so I am up for a team effort.

[salt_air]

Sounds very interesting....downloading now.

Count me in at some point.

[Moses03]

Looks like OBIO has worked up a usable FM. Any test pilots available?

[srgalahad]

not just yet.. still staggering to Slingapour.
DD's got one going that looks good (from scratch) so we might have options

[Dangerousdave26]

Yes I have one in the works as well

Lets not call it from scratch.

I basically took the old one and threw out 75% of the information that was based on the A-26C but was in its self also modified.

I got confirmation from Tom that what I thought was an error is not so I have some tweeking and testing to do and it will be ready.

If all goes well and right now it is you will get

950 nm (about) range @ around 194 kias @ critical altitude which was changed to 9,500. This power setting will not be full power and full prop as it is now. Full power and full prop will give you around 690 nm around 210 kias.

1550 nm (about) range @ around 163 kias @ critical altitude or above

We (Rob and I) are using the FAA current regulations on aircraft to determine the Never Exceed Speed. Which makes it SWAG or 223 KIAS (about). This part still needs testing.

Yes I am listing KIAS verse KTAS or GS. The reason for this is all the specs I could find on the aircraft point to 162 cruise speed, 194.4 Maximum operating speed. If those numbers were recorded from flight tests in the aircraft they would have been indicated airspeed not true airspeed. All testing is being done in no weather conditions to work out the fine details.

The critical altitude of 9,500 was arbitrarily chosen to provide the aircraft sufficient power to get up to the Service Ceiling of 17,700. This still needs tested depending on how that goes the critical altitude may come down more.

I cut the fuel capcity back down to almost the real aircraft specs. The model has three fuel selectors with three tanks on it and I do not want to dig into the model to change those to two tanks. Tank number 3 has been cut down to 50 US gallons. The total fuel 330 gallons US. Which is 50 gallons more than it should have. (what the heck we put extra tanks in the Puss Moth why not this )

I changed the contact points by trial and error and a lot of reading the aircraft container manual. Right now you can taxi, land and mat the brakes and you will stop with out nosing over. It will not bring you to a screeching halt. I still want to add a few scrape points to the contact points that will be this weekend.

The payload section is going to get changed. I have room for payload so I am going to try and add those sections so you all can carry the Mail as it were. (or what ever else you Moon Runners feel like).

Flight wise it handles very nice probably too nice.

The Flaps generate lift but they do not generate much drag. I have always thought too many FS aircraft generate too much drag from the flaps.

Of course once you get past the general performance specs there is very little data to find on this aircraft. For that reason I have added a few things like flaps damage speeds and gear damage speeds that I think/feel is right, or fun.

Still lots of work to do

[Bry Rosier]

Thanks for the hard work so far Dave , much appreciated . I imagine it will be a simple aircraft.cfg change to update .

[MM]

Dave, all this sounds really great.

Note that the published numbers for maximum speed will almost always be in True Air Speed, not Indicated Air Speed. For obvious reasons.

So if you model the airfile to achieve the published maximum speed as the the maximum in KIAS, you might translate that to KTAS at critical altitude. You will then note that the aircraft will go much faster than the published maximum speed. (For example, 194 KIAS at 9,500 ft will yield something like 230 KTAS.)

Just a thought.

Best,
Mike

[Dangerousdave26]

Thanks for the hard work so far Dave , much appreciated . I imagine it will be a simple aircraft.cfg change to update .

Aircraft.cfg and .air file change.

I don't know what affect it has on the airfile but I just built a second one for FSX Acceleration. As I have that sim as well I will start to basic test it.

[Dangerousdave26]

Dave, all this sounds really great.

Note that the published numbers for maximum speed will almost always be in True Air Speed, not Indicated Air Speed. For obvious reasons.

So if you model the airfile to achieve the published maximum speed as the the maximum in KIAS, you might translate that to KTAS at critical altitude. You will then note that the aircraft will go much faster than the published maximum speed. (For example, 194 KIAS at 9,500 ft will yield something like 230 KTAS.)

Just a thought.

Best,
Mike

Again Stupid me

I have been working in Air Wrench with the settings set to KTS

I have been flying in FS9 and reading the KIAS not KTAS so my numbers are still close to correct

164 KTS is Vno

194 is Vmo but FS uses that number for VNE (almost) What it does is overspeed at 198 which is not a large enough buffer from Maximum Operating Speed and Never Exceed Speed.

According to the FAA there is a required buffer between Vmo and Vne. We discussed the the equation last night and concluded 223 and the more I look at it I might bring it down to 215.

Thats the numbers I am testing tomorrow.

[Dangerousdave26]

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...7?OpenDocument

OPERATING LIMITATIONS

§ 4b.710 Air-speed limitations: general. When air-speed limitations are a function of weight. weight distribution, altitude, or Mach number, the values corresponding with all critical combinations of these values shall be established.

§ 4b.711 Never-exceed speed VNE. (a) To allow for possible variations in the airplane characteristics and to minimize the possibility of inadvertently exceeding safe speeds, the never-exceed speed VNE shall be a speed established sufficiently below the lesser of:

(1) The design dive speed VD chosen in accordance with § 4b.210 (b)(5), or

(2) The maximum speed demonstrated in flight in accordance with § 4b.190.

(b) In the absence of a rational investigation, the value of VNE shall not exceed 0.9 times the lesser of the two speeds referred to in paragraph (a) of this section.

§ 4b.712 Normal operating limit speed VNO. (a) The normal operating limit speed VNO shall be established not to exceed the design cruising speed Vc chosen in accordance with § 4b.210 (b) (4) and sufficiently below the never-exceed speed VNE to make it unlikely that VNE would be exceeded in a moderate upset occurring at VNO.

(b) In the absence of a rational investigation, the value of VNO shall not exceed 0.9 times VNE.

162 VNO

192 VMO (even though there seems to be some discrepency on VMO and Vmc) 194.4

216 VNE 216 * .9 = 194.4

Does that sound logical?

[Milton Shupe]

Lets not call it "dodgy" lets call it borrowed. Milton made it. :lol:

Until Henry or Tom can get an accurate FM done lets just get her in the air.

As its not a candidate for winning its all in the spirit of the event.

I plan on testing her tonight so I am up for a team effort.

Milton did not make it. The air file was borrowed from the A26, that's it, and that's fine. I had no hand in the A26 FM either BTW; that was Tom's work.

[srgalahad]

Actually, the placarded (Vmo, Vne, Vs, etc.) speeds are expressed in KIAS for pilot reference while the speeds listed in the Type certificate (when one can be found) will be the tested values measured in KTAS.

"The actual speeds represented by these designators are true airspeeds specific to a particular model of aircraft, and are expressed in terms of the aircraft's indicated airspeed, so that pilots may use them directly, without having to apply correction factors."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds

That's where some of the differences come when building models.. with no standard mentioned the modeler guesses which is which. If read from the Certificate it should be TAS, if read from pilot notes it's often IAS. With most of these antiques, who knows. With a lot of the WWII a/c it depends on whether the data comes from actual flight test data or the Press Officer's blurb. All of which likely explains some "overly hot" airfiles.

http://www.fliegerweb.com/geschichte...ow=lexikon-239

Höchstgeschwindigkeit in Bodennähe: 342 km/h (Max Speed at Sea Level - 184.6 KTAS) -that would be tested, level flight
Höchstgeschwindigkeit in 4.000m: 364 km/h (Max Speed at 15300 - 196.5 KTAS [151 KIAS])that would be tested, level flight
Reisegeschwindigkeit in 4.000m: 300km/h (cruise speed at 15300 - 162.KTAS [125KIAS]) that would be the speed at which it meets the 11 hour endurance number. With a fuel burn of .40 pounds/hp (a guess but a bit under the larger Cyclone figures) it is .4*395*11 / 6 = 290 gals.

198 KIAS as a Vne is therefore probably close but it would seem that an aircraft designed as a fast mail plane would have a bit more margin than 14 Kts over it's max level IAS - hence the 220-ish Vne.

With planes like this it's all in how you squint...

Rob

[Milton Shupe]

"I cut the fuel capcity back down to almost the real aircraft specs. The model has three fuel selectors with three tanks on it and I do not want to dig into the model to change those to two tanks. Tank number 3 has been cut down to 50 US gallons. The total fuel 330 gallons US. Which is 50 gallons more than it should have. (what the heck we put extra tanks in the Puss Moth why not this )

Just to clarify, we added tanks to match the information from C.J. Melrose's aircraft description.

I also added optional tanks that could be activated for the Atlantic crossings based on information from those documents.

As far as we could determine, both are accurate to get the miles stated in those adventures.

[Dangerousdave26]

Just to clarify, we added tanks to match the information from C.J. Melrose's aircraft description.

Milton I watched that closely that was just my weird sense of humor.

Which takes control of me...

From time to time.

[Milton Shupe]

LOL

Thanks Dave for your efforts on this aircraft FM.

[Dangerousdave26]

I plan on having the Completed .air file and aircraft.cfg in the hands (email box) of the Beta testers tonight.

While they are confirming my work I will put the read me together.

Hopefully they do not find anything objectionable then I will make it available to the rest of you.

[srgalahad]

Just to keep eyes open...

[Dangerousdave26]

FM has been uploaded as soon as the moderator clears the package is should be available.

After testing the general consensus has been it is Plausible (to steal a line from Myth Busters).

Is it completely 100% accurate...

...absolutely

...Maybe

...who knows there is just not enough information on this aircraft out there. Well at least not that I could find.

Read the read me, check list.htm, and ref.htm files other wise you will have a few surprises when you try and take off with it. With the details I could find i tried to use logic in developing the FM and I added a payload section which makes take offs and landings interesting if you are not paying attention.

I will be up for one leg of a team event but can I do a short one?