Team Orders

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

From Sky Sports...

Team orders were banned in the wake of Austrian 2002 when Rubens Barrichello blatantly moved aside for Michael Schumacher, earning jeers from the crowd and worldwide condemnation.
However, just because they are banned that doesn't mean they are not used.
In Germany this season Heikki Kovalainen eased aside to allow his faster team-mate Lewis Hamilton move up a position while in China Kimi Raikkonen did the same for Felipe Massa.
As a result di Montezemolo has admitted that he would like to talk with FIA President Max Mosley about changing the rules.
"I'll talk about it with Mosley, we need to get rid of this hypocrisy," di Montezemolo told Gazzetta dello Sport.
"The important thing is not to damage others. Besides that, team work, in a team sport, is one of the best things. Think of a cyclist leading the sprint for another."

What is this? Team orders still the odor of the day in F1? Why can't they just race? Think Jeff was told to pull over for Jimmy today? What other shenanigans are goin on? Here I was gonna make a point of watching the Brazilian race - what was I thinking?


-Ed-

[wombat666]

'Team Orders' have been used from the very begining of Motor Racing.
Drivers for teams such as Bugatti, Alfa Romeo, Maserati and FIAT had to contend with such orders, which became very prevalent during the Auto-Union and Mercedes Benz 'NSDAP' era, despite rebels such as Nuvolari and Varzi ignoring them.
Same goes for the post war period, but it was common to see a driver such as Peter Collins hand over his car to his team leader ......... no orders required, just good manners and respect.
The reason the FIA dislike Team Orders stem from several incidents where the #2 driver has made way for his #1 in a very public fashion and with ill grace.
Add the fact that Senna would only have a #2 in his team (Prost was an exception!) while any driver who signed on at FIAT when it was 'Team Herman' had to know he was the #2.
Team Orders are a fixture, and will never be stamped out.
And it is there at all levels, even in NASCAR.
'Real Life' Ed.

[Panther_99FS]

EasyEd,
As Wozza said, team orders have been around since the beginning of time...To ban them is just stupid.

That being said, F1 is the penultimate team racing sport... - Why?

Because F1 has the coveted "Constructors Championship" which is arguably "worth more" than the drivers championship....

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Your suggesting that F1 is more about Ferrari beating McClaren than it is Hamilton beating Massa? Really? Is that really why fans go to races? Is that why you watch F1 to see which "constructor" (why not call them what they are - manufacturer - constructor sounds like tinkertoys or lincoln logs - remember them?) wins? NASCAR has loyalties around manufacturers too but it has always been about people first. Take me I'm actually tri-schitzoid - favorite current driver - JJ (Silver Fox my alltime favorite - Dale no 2) - favorite manufacturer - Dodge (I dislike Chevy and Ford and wish Nissan were in) - favorite owner - Richard Childress. Always happy when JJ, dodge or Richard wins. How's that for divided? Point is in NASCAR it's driver first not manufacturer - I think people relate more to people than cars - I wonder what the casual F1 fan would think if he/she knew drivers pull over for other drivers when the owner speaks? Take NASCAR this year - 3 Roush drivers are in the chase - think Jack has decided who gets first and has ordered the other 2 to pull over? 3 Hendrick drivers are in the chase think Rick has ordered two of them to pull over for the third? 3 Childress drivers are in the chase think Richard has ordered two of them to pull over? 3 Gibbs drivers are in the chase think Joe has told two of them to pull over? F1 has some real problems - not the least of which is figuring out what matters. They may think the money is in the middle east and India but you just watch - those fans will likely wanna start seeing drivers that are not European but from their homeland(s) in those cars - what then? F1 the penultimate? Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

-Ed-

PS One last note - I'm a finn I don't like seeing finnish drivers being told to pull over.

[Panther_99FS]

Hey All,

Your suggesting that F1 is more about Ferrari beating McClaren than it is Hamilton beating Massa? Really? .

Yep - That's exactly what I'm saying.

If you've followed F1 over the years....you'd know what I mean :mixedsmi:

What makes F1 so special and different from other motorsports is the connection between individual car design & the constructor's championship...

[Panther_99FS]

I should add that as the years go by...

Rule changes are slowly sucking the design aspect out of the sport & the resulting side effect is that more emphasis is on the driver.

Gone are the days when you'd wonder what Ken Tyrrell's next car would be...

Gone are the days when you'd wonder what kind engine Ferrari would come up with next...

Gone are the days when Brabham would stretch the limits of design creativity....

Yep, F1 is slowly turning into GP2....:cost1:

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

What makes F1 so special and different from other motorsports is the connection between individual car design & the constructor's championship...

This is sad.

All the work of Senna, Stewart, Schumacher, Fangio, Clarke... all minimized for nothing but corporations - I always knew something never smelled right. To me racing is about man and machine against man and machine - not machine against machine. If that is the case just race two cars one time Ferrari and McLaren and call it done - better yet just use time trials and forget racing.

BTW none of the car designers in F1 as far as I know ever had the innovative genius of Mopar - the hemi and then the wings - NASCAR was at a complete loss as to how to deal with them. Big Bill hammered Mopar as a result - I never liked it - and to this day I and a lot of Mopar fans hold it against NASCAR. But Big Bill knew racing was about people first and machines second and even though it pains me to say it - from a racing perspective - he was right.

-Ed-

[Panther_99FS]

Hey All,

This is sad.

All the work of Senna, Stewart, Schumacher, Fangio, Clarke... all minimized for nothing -Ed-

Not minimized...

Interesting to note that the reason Senna left McLaren was because he wanted to drive the best car......Ironically that was the car he died in...

[Panther_99FS]

BTW none of the car designers in F1 as far as I know ever had the innovative genius of Mopar
-Ed-

I know....you're not an F1 follower (and you've got a huge NASCAR bias ) so your knowledge is limited...:mixedsmi:

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Panther I'll stand by what I said. I have watched F1 through the years but never tracked it as hard as I have NASCAR no dispute there. I've likely tracked WRC more through the years than F1 as that is great racing. Anyway that said...

What innovations showed up on an F1 track that simply took F1 totally by storm to the same extent that the hemi and the wings (you know what I mean) did NASCAR?

-Ed-

[Panther_99FS]

No problem Ed...

I still stand by what I said too....:mixedsmi:


BTW,
There was some good innovation in the old Can-Am series too....

[wombat666]

What innovations showed up on an F1 track that simply took F1 totally by storm to the same extent that the hemi and the wings (you know what I mean) did NASCAR?
-Ed-

In no particular order ....... Carbon Fibre Composites, the Lotus 25 Monocoque, Electronic Gearshifts, Traction Control, Wings, Ground Effects, Turbochargers, Aluminium Honeycomb (aka Mallite), ABS, Stability Control or Active Suspension, Reactive Suspension, Colin Chapman's amazing Dual Chassis Lotus 88, Carbon Composite Brakes, the Cosworth DFV and a host of other high tech clever ideas too numerous to mention.
Not all of them good for the sport and not all of them successful, but when engineers and designers were given relative freedom the technical innovations were astounding.
One that never made it into competition comes readily to mind, BMW built a 3.5 Litre V12 around 1992 complete with 36 valve triple OHC heads, just an experiment well before they stepped back into the ring.
Speaking of engines ...... V2, inline 4, inline 6, inline 8, V12, Flat 12, Flat 16, W12, V8, V10, V12 and v16 configurations in normally aspirated, supercharged and turbocharged flovours have all seen the light of day.

I really don't think that 'Technology' and 'NASCAR' can be used together ...... :d
Now WRC, there is a different arena and I'm mightily impressed by the Citroen C4 Hybrid for the 2009 WRC season!
Shame that EffWun has become a corporate cash cow for certain people, but that could change over the next few months if the Manufacturers say FU to the FIA and their stupid single engine supplier deal.
FIAT have started the ball rolling, when Mercedes and Renault (for example) back FIAT up the rest will follow.

A footnote, the Constructors title has been the prime goal of people such as Frank Williams, Bernie Ecclestone and Ron Dennis from day one. Drivers are just 'plugins' to paraphrase Williams and Dennis.

[Ferry_vO]

Ed, I think P and Wombat have said it all; F1 is a teamsport, definitely not an individual sport!

I'm not against teamorders at all if they make sense, like Raikkonen letting Massa pass so Felipe can keep his chance of winning the title.
Ironically the team that got teamorders banned in the first place with some really stupid moves is now saying they should lift that ban!