Messerschmitt Bf 109G Trainer
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Thread: Messerschmitt Bf 109G Trainer

  1. #1

    Messerschmitt Bf 109G Trainer

    Hello gents,
    does someone know if a Bf-109 G-12 (biplace schoolversion) was evermade to be flyable in FS2004?
    On my knowledge there are to realones existing today, one with a RR Merline engine and one with a DB605 engine
    Would be an interesting "blind" take off and landing experiance from the rear cockpit
    Best Regards
    Michael Vader

  2. #2
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    Don't think I have for any FS/CFS. Yoinked the CFS3 and dumped it into Blender and after a few hours I have this.

    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  3. #3

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Hallo Allen,
    thank you for your reply,
    Looks really fine indeed.
    Would there be a chance for a flyable FS2004 version?
    I would be quiet interested to make a cockpit with the possible change from front to rear seat.
    Best Regards
    Michael Vader

  4. #4
    Oh, THAT would be nice!! A Bf-109 TRAINER with a double cockpit! WOW!!! Can't wait !!!

    hertzie

  5. #5
    Prompted by your post I did a thorough search of my archives and of all the sites I could think of and ....... nada!! We're well served in every other version in both payware and freeware, including the earliest version courtesy of Shessi* and A.F. Scrub, but no G-12; it is a Scrub kinda niche, so I was surprised to find nothing, and I guess it is always possible the Team Daedalus folk have it on their list, but if Allen can turn that into something usable (and I know how busy he is so that is a big "IF") it may be the only option.

    * Wonderfully enhanced by your good self Papi.
    Andy

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG43 View Post
    Prompted by your post I did a thorough search of my archives and of all the sites I could think of and ....... nada!! We're well served in every other version in both payware and freeware, including the earliest version courtesy of Shessi* and A.F. Scrub, but no G-12; it is a Scrub kinda niche, so I was surprised to find nothing, and I guess it is always possible the Team Daedalus folk have it on their list, but if Allen can turn that into something usable (and I know how busy he is so that is a big "IF") it may be the only option.

    * Wonderfully enhanced by your good self Papi.
    Agreed ; I suspected the usual suspects, Piglet, A F Scrub, or Shessi may have dabbled in the past but found zilch!

    ttfn

    Pete

  7. #7
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    Yoinked the cockpit and stated work on it. All I really have to look at is model kits so thing are a lot of guess work. Once all of the editing work is done I'll get things moved over to gMax and rebuild it for FS04.





    More up to date. Using dummy gauges from CFS3 that used modeled gauges so I could get an idea of scale for the rear panel area. 100% Blender still.

    Last edited by Allen; November 21st, 2023 at 19:58.
    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  8. #8

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Wow,
    Allen that looks very fine indeed
    Ok, I will beginn to search photos for the rear cockpit enhancements.
    For the moment I was more focussd on helicopters as I can fly them easier
    with my eratic controls.
    But Beeing very attentive at the controls to prevent eratic movements it is possible to fly.
    I tried the realair Spitfire and the flight replicas BF 109 K (the most powerfull) with total realism configuration.
    Hmmm difficult but possible.
    So as soon as possible i will set me to work on the cockpits.
    Thank you Allen to put your efforts on this interesting bird.
    In germany they remotorized their G-12 with a RR merlin engine because it would she would have more
    engine hours and spare parts potential than with the rare DB and sensible DB605 engine.
    Best regards
    Yours
    Michael Vader

  9. #9
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    The back gauges placement for are from some Bf109 I found here. https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/19...itt-bf-109g-12

    Besides the front panel is all borked thanks to MS. I tried to clean it up some but to me it looks like MS used a K model as the base and I really don't want to have to remake the whole front as I already went there once with the 262 and it wasn't fun. So what I have should work okay.

    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  10. #10
    Searched my reference books and, sorry, nothing on the cockpit. But here are a few other things that might prove useful.

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    Andy

  11. #11

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Good evening Allen and Andy
    wonder if i would find better photos than those ones on the mentionned site.
    very good
    Also every other docs are welcome, thank you Andy
    Allen when you say to change the front end, I believe you mean the engine.
    No, to make a version with a RR engine is really not necessary.
    Wth the DB she would be correct.
    The rear seat is really very sparse.
    Best regards
    Michael Vader

  12. #12
    Granted,it's not a real 109 two seater,it's the HA-1112-M4L Buchon G-AWHC,but there's plenty of front and rear cockpit shots.
    I'm not sure how much the Buchon would differ from the Messer,but I always thought the Buchon to be a direct licenced built copy
    of the 109G minus the DB605 engine.

    https://www.platinumfighters.com/inv...ion-sa-buchon/

    An interesting read on the Buchon/109,Restoring and flying the ex-Connie Edwards' Buchons by Richard Grace:

    https://vintageaviationecho.com/richard-grace-buchons/

  13. #13
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    Exported to gMax and out as FS2004 model for animation checks. So far, so good.



    Edit:



    Last edited by Allen; November 22nd, 2023 at 22:02.
    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  14. #14

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 difference Buchon vs BF109

    Hallo friends,
    there are significative differencies between the Buchon and the original BF-109G: the tail-rudder unit.
    When Hispano Aviation did not getting original Daimler Benz engines they tried to adapt a Hispano Suiza engine.
    This engine turned counter clockwise instead the DB engine turning clockwise as same as the later RR engine unit.
    So Hispano Aviation did make a new Tail-Rudder with an oposite profile shape than the original to counter the other propeller and airflew effects.
    When later they did receive and mount RR engines they did not change the tail rudder unit!
    This fact conducted to amplify the 109's behaviour to slew to the left. That also amplified the 109's bad reputation of her start and landings behaviour.
    I do not know if later remotorized aircraft with DB engines had new tails as the original ones.
    For having tested a lot of 109's in flightsim, I believe the flight replica 109's are quiet close to the original compared to flight test.
    just a bit tail heavy. Especially the test flights with the 109 G-2 "Black Six" are very usefull to compare.
    So for the flightdynamics the flight replicas 109 G-6 might be certainly of good use.
    Looking forward to have the G-12 on my tarmac to begin to work on the cockpits.
    Allen your screenshotsare very nice I believe there will be not a lot of work for me to do LOL
    Best regards
    Yours
    Michael Vader

  15. #15
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    Someone will have to make or find a dono flight dynamics. I'm just using the CFS3 aircraft.cfg edited to fit the model and CFS1 .air so I have something to move in FS04. If someone want to make flight dynamics or know of a good .air file I can use let me know.
    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by michaelvader View Post
    Hallo friends,
    there are significative differencies between the Buchon and the original BF-109G: the tail-rudder unit.
    When Hispano Aviation did not getting original Daimler Benz engines they tried to adapt a Hispano Suiza engine.
    This engine turned counter clockwise instead the DB engine turning clockwise as same as the later RR engine unit.
    So Hispano Aviation did make a new Tail-Rudder with an oposite profile shape than the original to counter the other propeller and airflew effects.
    When later they did receive and mount RR engines they did not change the tail rudder unit!
    This fact conducted to amplify the 109's behaviour to slew to the left. That also amplified the 109's bad reputation of her start and landings behaviour.
    I do not know if later remotorized aircraft with DB engines had new tails as the original ones.
    For having tested a lot of 109's in flightsim, I believe the flight replica 109's are quiet close to the original compared to flight test.
    just a bit tail heavy. Especially the test flights with the 109 G-2 "Black Six" are very usefull to compare.
    So for the flightdynamics the flight replicas 109 G-6 might be certainly of good use.
    Looking forward to have the G-12 on my tarmac to begin to work on the cockpits.
    Allen your screenshotsare very nice I believe there will be not a lot of work for me to do LOL
    Best regards
    Yours
    Michael Vader
    Hello Michael,

    If you have a look at the first link I posted to Platinum Fighters sale of the HA-1112-M4L Buchon G-AWHC,you'll see that it has the taller fin and rudder of the later G series 109's fitted.

  17. #17
    Charter Member 2010 thunder100's Avatar
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    Humble polite question

    Also a FSX Native P3D output from Gmax possible ?

    Thank you

    Roland

  18. #18

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Good evening,
    Miggers, the buchon of the site is an absolute "bizza".
    The original G-12 had only the small fin as all the 109 before with the G-10 was introduced the larger fin
    Also the canopy has nothing in commun with the original rear cockpit framing.
    As far as I know the G-12 flown by the Hangar 10 crew was a buchon reconverted to a historical G-12
    by Meier Motors in germany They did a lot of work to make this G-12 as correct as possible
    Allen, for the flight dynamics, don't worry I will have a look on it just take if you have the one from flight replicas if you have it.
    If you dont have them I will send them to you
    Best regards
    Yours
    Michael Vader

  19. #19
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    Thunder100
    If someone wants the gMax source they can have it but I'm not doing a port to FSX. My FSX Gold CDs should have all of the gMax add-ons parts but 2 hours of video to see how to convert from FS04 to FSX is a big no thanks.

    Michaelvader
    If the flight replicas 109 became freeware sure if not I'll DM Captain Kurt about the Team Daedalus 109s as he did the flight dynamics for them.
    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  20. #20
    Charter Member 2010 thunder100's Avatar
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    Have a look

    https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG100s.html


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    Best regards

    Roland

  21. #21

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Good evening,
    here just three pages I scanned " la va vite" from a book I just had under the hand
    in the next days I will put my nose into my archives
    Good night
    Yours
    Michael Vader
    Attached Files Attached Files

  22. #22

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Hallo friends,
    here what I found beginning to search in my archives.
    I believe that this is a good indication how to enhance
    the rear cockpit. If translation will be needed please tell me i will do it asap
    Good night
    Yours
    Michael Vader
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 109 G12 cockpits.jpg  

  23. #23

    Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-12 (biplace school version)

    Alast one for this night,
    with the student pilot sitting on the front seat the view forward is really near to blind flying
    Please do not forget to put the pilot in the vc LOL
    Good night
    Yours
    Michael Vader
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails G12 from the rear seat.jpg  

  24. #24
    Redding Army Airfield Allen's Avatar
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    Flight dynamics are still jank as they are CFS3 aircraft.cfg edited to fit the model and CFS1 .air. Tailkook to put pilot in front see in the VC for rear set flying. Everyone should have the gauges are they are CFS1,CFS2 and FS04 gauges. Using Extra300 sounds.

    Messerschmitt_Bf_109G6_Trainer.zip
    "Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.

  25. #25

    Nice one Allen, many thanks.

    Did make me laugh about saying no to FSX, the times I've been asked....and said definitely not!

    Cheers

    Shessi

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