Aerosoft will only produce dumbed-down aircraft for MSFS

[Daube]

Hi all,

I just found out these comments from the Aerosoft lead on their forums regarding their recently-released Twin-Otter:
https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php...omment-1073903

If you read carefully, you will find the following critical statements:
1- The TwinOtter was announced from the start as "aimed at the Xbox platform"
2- They had to dumb-down many systems, use only default systems, restrict many things to keep the aircraft within the limited capacities of an XBox console
3- They had to restrict many features that would prevent the plane from being available on the XBox market (I'm guessing the use of external modules required by complex systems)
4- They say they are a business driven by sales volumes, and they want to see how big volumes will be for this XBox-compatible release (clearly, it will be superior to their previous release which was PC-only)
5- They say they received many complains and support requests because the CRJ was too complex to use for a high percentage of the MSFS "average users".... understand: games who didn't ****.
6- They say developping an aircraft that complies with the XBox limitations is extremely costly, more than an adcanced aicraft in P3D.

There are a few other points in later comments that clearly indicate they are ready to keep complying with the "dumbed-down" products since these are probably going to sell in the highest volumes.
This basically means Aerosoft is clearly stating they have no interest at all in trying to produce realistic and detailed aircraft/systems anymore.
To me, this basically means Aerosoft is out of the game from now on.
What do you think ?

[gribouil]

Hello Daube,
Just one word;
Disappointing...

[gastonj]

I think the colossal investments of M$ on MSFS are not dedicated to the simulation niche market and that many companies, the eye on sales, will take into account? But is it really a surprise?
JMC

[Daube]

You summarize it very well.
But the real disappointment is seeing this "theory" actually becoming reality.
I mean, yes we will knew a dumb aircraft sold on the Xbox market place will outsell anything ever made for FSX, P3D or Xplane. But I was kind of hoping that aircraft editors would keep producing higher-level quality aircraft, while still benefiting from the higher sales volumes on PC only...

[cavaricooper]

With respect- the Twotter (now that I have actually spent some time with her) isn't total rubbish. Yes, there are certainly some glaring issues that need a fix immediately. What is indisputable is that the flight model is representative, taxi is representative and once you start sucking seat on approach, you don't really have time to fixate on the issues, being way, way too preoccupied with making the TDZ. MK could use some softening, and perhaps some civility gets lost in translation, but all in all, Alex Metzger's skills more than make up for the sub par graphics, systems depth and sounds.

I believe Aerosoft is working hard on fixing their shortcomings, and I hope the Twotter blossoms into all she can be... she's had me sweating and smiling all at once, already!

C

[tiger1962]

2- They had to dumb-down many systems, use only default systems, restrict many things to keep the aircraft within the limited capacities of an XBox console
3- They had to restrict many features that would prevent the plane from being available on the XBox market (I'm guessing the use of external modules required by complex systems)

What they didn't say, and should have done, is that there is no way of testing complex aircraft on Xbox during development.
There is only a crude emulator which can confirm basic compatibility with Xbox, but it can't confirm that a specific engine or electrical failure will activate under certain conditions for example.
It's the development process itself which has dumbed-down third-party development, not the developers themselves - this why PMDG pulled the DC-6 from the Marketplace in December - maybe in protest to Asobo and Xbox Games Studios?
Maybe MK has taken a different approach to his own protest by saying that Aerosoft won't produce complex aircraft for MSFS full stop, in the hope that the buying public will protest loud and long to Asobo, Xbox Games Studios and Microsoft about this situation.

[Manschy]

I don't know why Aerosoft is being self-defeating.

I can understand that lots of x-box users want to use the MSFS as a sightseeing sim with simple to use aircraft. But this way, I can't understand that they are willingly to buy additional aircraft for that! The default MSFS aircraft do serve the purpose! One airliner, one Cessna, the F-18 near future and a helicopter - that's it.
All users who are interested in flying more special aircraft or niche models, are interested in more detailed and more realistic systems. They are NOT the group of buyers Mr. Kok is looking for!
Kids who are interested in those niche models maybe will pay 3 - 5 Dollars/Euro/Pouds for doing some flights with it. But not for the same price of an aircraft with all functional systems in P3D but restricted systems in X-Box. Why oh why?

I think Mr. Kok will fall flat on his face when he will going on with this strategy. The only customers who will pay high prices for this aircraft ARE the users who are interested in deeper system functionality! And those of all people he will ignore? These customers will not accept this weird decision, I am sure.
Go on, Mr. Kok and go your wrong way, but faithful customers will not forget this....

[tiger1962]

Go on, Mr. Kok and go your wrong way, but faithful customers will not forget this....

That is exactly what he wants you (and the rest of us) to say, so that he can go to Microsoft and show them all the complaints so that they will create a better Xbox development process for complex aircraft.

[Daube]

I don't know why Aerosoft is being self-defeating.

I can understand that lots of x-box users want to use the MSFS as a sightseeing sim with simple to use aircraft. But this way, I can't understand that they are willingly to buy additional aircraft for that! The default MSFS aircraft do serve the purpose! One airliner, one Cessna, the F-18 near future and a helicopter - that's it.
All users who are interested in flying more special aircraft or niche models, are interested in more detailed and more realistic systems. They are NOT the group of buyers Mr. Kok is looking for!
Kids who are interested in those niche models maybe will pay 3 - 5 Dollars/Euro/Pouds for doing some flights with it. But not for the same price of an aircraft with all functional systems in P3D but restricted systems in X-Box. Why oh why?

I think Mr. Kok will fall flat on his face when he will going on with this strategy. The only customers who will pay high prices for this aircraft ARE the users who are interested in deeper system functionality! And those of all people he will ignore? These customers will not accept this weird decision, I am sure.
Go on, Mr. Kok and go your wrong way, but faithful customers will not forget this....

I don't think they will suffer from any bad consequences.
We, serious simmers, are a ridiculous minority.
If Aerosoft reaches a situation where "only XBox kids" buy their addons, they will still outsell anything they did on FSX or P3D. They will still earn much more money than they ever did.
From MK speech on Aerosoft forums, I understand that we, serious simmers, are nothing but a nuisance, asking for addons that are too complex to develop and less revenue-generating in the end.

[wombat666]

I tend to think this is likely the first of a number of marketing decisions by commercial developers to move toward the 'X-Boxers' zone.
We are a minority, likely a group of pedantic picky nuisances, but dare I say we have kept these operations viable over a long time.
'Stuff' happens.

[tiger1962]

Indeed, as Daube says, MK stated on the Aerosoft MSFS Twin Otter forum that the MSFS version has sold more copies in 5 days than the Twin Otter Extended did in 5 years.

[Lawman]

I think the OP is drawing conclusions that are not warrented by the post he links to. My interpretation is that the Twotter is ATM a test case to see how well it will do in the XBox-market and to gauge what XBox-users expect/want. For any commercial company, the XBox-market is probably much more interesting than the PC-market. And they most likely will want to avoid having to develop for multiple platforms like they had to 5-10 years ago (FSX/P3D/XPlane).

So yes, it is entirely possible that Aerosoft (and other devs/publishers) will switch to XBox as their main platform and that the PC-version will be a "dumbed down"-derivative of that. But there's nothing in that statement that makes me conclude this is a given at this moment.

[Manschy]

This reminds me of a german book called "Money eats soul" and yes - this behaviour seems to be arrived to flightsim finally...

[jmig]

At least when it comes to military planes, this "good enough" trend has me flying in DCS more and more. Currently, I only fly sight-seeing or a X-country hops in MSFS.

Also, after being disappointed with several of the more recent introductions (Kodak an exception) I have, at least for the time being, stopped buying airplane releases. I am not interested in arcade aircraft; I don't care how pretty they are. I am interested in quality. I do recognize that at my age I am rapidly turning into an ancient curmudgeon. So, maybe I am an exception. I hope so for the sake of the developers. I would like to see the hobby continue and grow. I am sure flight-simming has been the door to many a private license and beyond.

While I understand this "good enough" business model can be profitable on a short term, it comes at the expense of core business customers. The X-box crowd will turn over quickly, as the young teen grows into more complex games or leaves the x-box behind for greater pursuits. Eventually, the x-box developer still has to up the ante' in order to upsell existing customers (core simmers included) or rely on a bunch of fresh faces. This, I believe, will work only so long. Sooner or later something else will come along and replace MSFS or flight-simming in general as the new VR fad. As many a rock star has discovered, fam is fleeting.

[keithb77]

I spend most of my time in MSFS in warbirds and gliders... as warbirds aren't allowed in the Marketplace (and thus not on XBOX) unless gelded maybe this trend will continue and the best MSFS planes will continue to be warbirds...

[Tom Clayton]

I believe they're playing a game of economics. I don't mind a little complexity (I love doing manual starts from cold/dark), but while I used to love flying heavies in FS9, I simply don't have the time required to program a computer before I can even consider starting the engines. The Kodiak has plenty to keep a single pilot busy, and though I still have yet to fly the Twotter, I suspect it will be the same. There are other sims that AS can develop for to please the system-minded. The XP and P3D series are highly popular with the airliner/FMS crowd, and the military systems people have DCS. In my opinion, MSFS is likely to evolve into a platform primarily used by GA/Bush flight enthusiasts, largely due to the scenery streaming system. There is simply no better sim (that I know of) that brings these kinds of visuals to the low/slow community.

[Spad54]

Hello Daube,
Just one word;
Disappointing...

But not surprising. This speaks volumes about the future of MSFS as a true simulator as opposed to an airplane simulation game. Flight simulation should be about all aspects of flight and include systems management. P3D, X-Plane and to a great extent Legacy FSX all meet that requirement. I don't believe that M$ ever wanted that for this platform as XBox is their gaming cash cow. Lets see how many of the other mega developers follow suit.

[Javis]

This reminds me of a german book called "Money eats soul" and yes - this behaviour seems to be arrived to flightsim finally...

You might be dead right about that, Manschy.

More than 30 years ago Mathijs Kok was THE Flight Simulator hero here in the Netherlands. It was he who instigated, setup and directed the so called 'Annual Flight Simulator Weekend' which was, by then, held at the Schiphol Aviodome. I mean, where in the world did that happen otherwise ? (it still exists but since many years now held at the Lelystad Aviodrome). All out of pure dedication and enthusiasm for the flight simulator hobby.

I think we can assume that Mathijs did bring this latter idiom over to Aerosoft when he started working there. One example is what i think is one of the most amazing and wonderful FS9/FSX aircraft models ever produced, the Hughes H-1B Special, created by master designer Stefan Hoffmann, also of FSX/P3D Twin Otter Extended fame.

It's a law of Medes & Persians that, in 30 years plus, things and times have changed. Have changed a LOT. Regarding most FS developers the days of ' pure enthusiasm and dedication for the hobby' are a thing of the past, probabely never to return ( ironically really as our beloved virtual flying world has never been so immensely beautiful and exiting..).

I think we can also assume that, atleast to some extent, even MS kept FS alive 'out of dedication and enthusiasm' but, one bad day, totally unexpected, all dedication and enthusiasm blew away like dust in the wind. Over and out !

A few moons ago however, also totally unexpected, MS opened up a completely different can of FS goodies. An amazing brand new virtual flying world for us to enjoy and likewise amazing super high quality aircraft models to make that possible. Plus another little titbit completely new (to us) : Xbox... A world hit record by ABBA springs to mind : Money, money, money.

It's really not hard to understand that, regarding our beloved virtual flying world, the days of 'pure enthusiasm and dedication' are now overruled by the days of 'money, money, money'. Mathijs Kok/Aerosoft are just going with the flow. Who can blame them ?

I loved the Twin Otter Extended in FS9/FSX/P3D but i'll forget about it in MSFS. I always have the amazing PMDG DC-6 and hopefully a good DC-3 in the pipeline. ( right Baz ?...;-)

The DC-6 proves we still can have great and complex aircraft models in MSFS, isn't it. If Aerosoft doesn't want to play anymore (i.e wants to go Xbox style only) good luck to them. Thanks!

Anyway, just my 2cents about the matter.

[Manschy]

What I do not understand:

It can't be that complicated to develop aircraft with a fairly deep system functionality. This way, isn't it a great idea to develop this aircraft, offer this for the deep hardcore simmer for all I care a big price which will be payed if the product is okay. Then I would marked it as "Exclusive" models (which even honor us hardcore simmers..). Then dumbed-down aircraft could be sold for the "new generation basic" simmers with restricted system, animations whatever for a lower price.

I for one would check this option - like differently equipped cars, television models, gaming software like FIFA etc etc

So on the one hand, hardcore simmers could use their beloved aircraft as best as possible, low interested simmers could get their stuff for gaming. All fine.

But MSFS is changing time - now flightsimulation has lost its passion unfortunately, for scenery designers anyhow.
And which gamer playing Mario Cart even now is interested in a completely working aircraft cockpit?

Society is changing into fastfood generation again. No quality but quantity. Only hope is some small addon producer will keep the passion spirit....Hope never dies...

[Priller]

You might be dead right about that, Manschy.

More than 30 years ago Mathijs Kok was THE Flight Simulator hero here in the Netherlands. It was he who instigated, setup and directed the so called 'Annual Flight Simulator Weekend' which was, by then, held at the Schiphol Aviodome. I mean, where in the world did that happen otherwise ? (it still exists but since many years now held at the Lelystad Aviodrome). All out of pure dedication and enthusiasm for the flight simulator hobby.

I think we can assume that Mathijs did bring this latter idiom over to Aerosoft when he started working there. One example is what i think is one of the most amazing and wonderful FS9/FSX aircraft models ever produced, the Hughes H-1B Special, created by master designer Stefan Hoffmann, also of FSX/P3D Twin Otter Extended fame.

It's a law of Medes & Persians that, in 30 years plus, things and times have changed. Have changed a LOT. Regarding most FS developers the days of ' pure enthusiasm and dedication for the hobby' are a thing of the past, probabely never to return ( ironically really as our beloved virtual flying world has never been so immensely beautiful and exiting..).

I think we can also assume that, atleast to some extent, even MS kept FS alive 'out of dedication and enthusiasm' but, one bad day, totally unexpected, all dedication and enthusiasm blew away like dust in the wind. Over and out !

A few moons ago however, also totally unexpected, MS opened up a completely different can of FS goodies. An amazing brand new virtual flying world for us to enjoy and likewise amazing super high quality aircraft models to make that possible. Plus another little titbit completely new (to us) : Xbox... A world hit record by ABBA springs to mind : Money, money, money.

It's really not hard to understand that, regarding our beloved virtual flying world, the days of 'pure enthusiasm and dedication' are now overruled by the days of 'money, money, money'. Mathijs Kok/Aerosoft are just going with the flow. Who can blame them ?

I loved the Twin Otter Extended in FS9/FSX/P3D but i'll forget about it in MSFS. I always have the amazing PMDG DC-6 and hopefully a good DC-3 in the pipeline. ( right Baz ?...;-)

Anyway just my 2cents about the matter. The DC-6 proves we still can have great and complex aircraft models in MSFS, isn't it.

In short, welcome to the 21st century, the days of rampant capitalism. Capitalism combined with democracy have brought us (the whole world) good things. Those days are over.

Priller

[TeiscoDelRay]

Well someone forgot to tell PMDG about this new trend. Their DC 6 is complex and not aimed at the kiddie crowd. Their upcoming jetliners also will be super complex and realistic. If other devs want to make fighter jets and such for the under 20 group, so be it but there are devs out there that will continue to make realistic, complex aircraft for MSFS.

[Javis]

In short, welcome to the 21st century, the days of rampant capitalism. Capitalism combined with democracy have brought us (the whole world) good things. Those days are over.

Mwah..... you really think so ? Because Aerosoft gone Xbox ? A company wants to make money, nothing new under the sun. Buck up, mate.

[Javis]

Well someone forgot to tell PMDG about this new trend. Their DC 6 is complex and not aimed at the kiddie crowd. Their upcoming jetliners also will be super complex and realistic. If other devs want to make fighter jets and such for the under 20 group, so be it but there are devs out there that will continue to make realistic, complex aircraft for MSFS.

That's the spirit, Teisco !

[Sundog]

There will always be complex aircraft for MSFS. The names of the developers may change and the prices may go up, because they are expensive to develop, but business is business. I don't blame Aerosoft for doing what they're doing. They would be stupid not to. The nice thing is, if you're really angry about it, there isn't anything stopping any of us here from learning to develop these on our own. Especially now, more than ever, the tools to develop aircraft are becoming free. Before, you would have to spend thousands of dollars to buy 3DSmax to develop something for FS. Now you can use Blender, which is free. As is Gimp, etc. Hell, Just Flight has a line of much simpler military aircraft, because in depth aircraft take so damned long to develop. Now, what I would like these companies to do is make all the switches in the cockpits "clickable/operable" and give out the variables to which they are assigned, but without any systems behind them. There are so many freeware developers, if they want to take the time to develop the systems, let the community have at it. It lowers costs for developers, but allows the users to develop them to whatever level they prefer. Plus, it would give users the ability to upgrade the models to whatever level they like. That's just my two cents.

[Priller]

There will always be complex aircraft for MSFS. The names of the developers may change and the prices may go up, because they are expensive to develop, but business is business. I don't blame Aerosoft for doing what they're doing. They would be stupid not to. The nice thing is, if you're really angry about it, there isn't anything stopping any of us here from learning to develop these on our own. Especially now, more than ever, the tools to develop aircraft are becoming free. Before, you would have to spend thousands of dollars to buy 3DSmax to develop something for FS. Now you can use Blender, which is free. As is Gimp, etc. Hell, Just Flight has a line of much simpler military aircraft, because in depth aircraft take so damned long to develop. Now, what I would like these companies to do is make all the switches in the cockpits "clickable/operable" and give out the variables to which they are assigned, but without any systems behind them. There are so many freeware developers, if they want to take the time to develop the systems, let the community have at it. It lowers costs for developers, but allows the users to develop them to whatever level they prefer. Plus, it would give users the ability to upgrade the models to whatever level they like. That's just my two cents.

Now THAT is the spirit!!

Priller