OT; RW Carrier F-18 launch

[Javis]

In this particular sequence of a carrier ops video a few F-18's are launced. It can clearly be seen that the pilots are *not* holding the stick during the launce. They hold the right side grip instead. Does that mean that F-18 launches here are done on AP, i.e. fully automatic ?.....

https://youtu.be/IBuNSoh2utI?t=339

Question : Why ??.... (they don't change left hand from throttle to stick, do they ?..)

Anybody knows ?... Just curious..

Thanks!

[Stickshaker]

As far as I know the first few seconds of an F/A-18 carrier launch are automatic (a launch is, I suppose, easier to standardize than a landing). Only when the plane is safely in the air does the pilot take over. I don't know what the pilot has to do to take control

[mgr]

Immediately after the end of the catapult stroke, the aircraft will rotate to capture the 12° reference AOA (hands-off). To avoid PIO with the FCS, do not restrain the stick during catapult launch or make stick inputs immediately after catapult launch. The pilot should attempt to remain out of the loop but should closely monitor the catapult sequence.

Ref: http://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-EF-000.pdf

[jmig]

According to the guys at The Fighter Pilot Podcast, a Cat launch can be extremely disorienting, especially at night. So, the Flight Control System is designed to fly the jet (as succinctly expressed by mgr above) until the pilot can get his/her act together and take over.

[Javis]

Thanks Hans and Marcel ! ( typical... two dutchmen answering while the Netherlands neither operates a carrier (anymore..) nore utilises the F/A-18 Hornet. Hehe..;-)

Good one, Marcel ! I was searching for an MSFS F-18 manual but doesn't seem to be there ?...

Thanks again guys, almost all clear now. Still i find it fascinating, automatic launch/take-off from a carrier...

Thanks, John ! That certainly make sense.

Got 2 inquiries left: what does PIO stand for and with what aircraft did the automatic launch start ?..... F.i. does the F-14 launch in the conventional way ?

Thanks gents!

P.S. forgive my ignorance. I tried before but never really succeeded in virtual carrier ops. More time to spend now so try again. Plus i love the F-14 ;-)

Edit: scratch PIO inq., found it (Pilot Induced Occilations)

[Tom Clayton]

From the context and a little digging, I'm thinking Pilot Induced Oscillations.

[jmig]

From the context and a little digging, I'm thinking Pilot Induced Oscillations.

Yep, it comes from over correcting in the pitch axis.

[jmig]

... with what aircraft did the automatic launch start ?..... F.i. does the F-14 launch in the conventional way ?

Thanks gents!

P.S. forgive my ignorance. I tried before but never really succeeded in virtual carrier ops. More time to spend now so try again. Plus i love the F-14 ;-)

Edit: scratch PIO inq., found it (Pilot Induced Occilations)

I am pretty sure it is the F/A-18 Hornet. It is fly-by-wire, think computer controlled. The F-14 had the conventual hydraulics controlled system. The computer controlled fly-by-wire F-18 is able to sense the AOA, VVI, Airspeed, etc. data in order to fly the launch. When the weight comes off the wheels (WOW) the computer starts doing its thing until the pilot takes over control. It is a very sophisticated system.

If you really want to experience virtual carrier operations try DCS. The Supercarrier (payware) and T-45 (freeware) will give you a seemingly (to this USAF guy) realistic experience. Once your gonads are properly prepared by trapping in the T-45 you can try the payware F/A-18C for a humiliating experience. I tip my hat in respect to Naval Aviators.

[Whitehawk]

Yep the disorientation comes from our sense of linear acceleration and pitch being from the same organ - as with all balance organs the ambiguity is resolved by vision (which is why when teaching instrument flying we keep harping on about trusting the instruments!) In conditions of low visual reference (night, rain, fog etc.) the strong linear acceleration of the catapult stroke can be perceived by the pilot as a pitch-up, the instinctive correction of which would be rather disadvantageous!

In the Bug the FLCS does the work based on T/O TRIM which is set for the stores and fuel load, to fly a pre-determined pitch up to shallow climb off the catapult, then the pilot takes over (and apparently they call that handle the towel rail, sources needed haha!)

For the Tomcat, the pilot follows the stick with his hand but again the take-off trim setting does the initial work, photos of the tomcat with large nose-up deflections of the stabilators during the initial part of the cat shot are apparently due to the bob-weight on the stick being pulled aft by inertia during the acceleration, which pulls the stick back.

Oh and carrier ops in DCS, excellent - the Cat is a beast to wrestle around the boat, I don't have the Bug but my clanmates comment that the FLCS makes it a little easier, but still very challenging!

[Javis]

HELP!!! All of a sudden I can't seem to properly compose a post anymore ??.....There's no menu anymore to f.i. insert an image. Space between lines is not recognised anymore. Smilies don't work, etc and so.Am i the only one seeing this ??....

[Victory103]

Javis, that's it in a nutshell. Also the handle is nicknamed the "towel rack" due to looking like a ...rack. Several good in-cockpit vids out, here is one:

https://youtu.be/PSN9ipE4VoI

From static carriers in flight sim to moving ships with AICarriers/Tacpack from the good old FS9/X/P3D days, nothing beats DCS. My heart rate ramps up a few ticks at night on approach in the steam gauge Big Fighter (F-14). Hope MSFS continues to move that direction now that we have a handful of USN models and static carriers.

[Tom Clayton]

Javis - click Settings at the top right, then scroll down on the left bar and click General Settings. Scroll down that menu and select Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing for the Message Editor Interface. If that doesn't help, clear the cookies for this site and log back in, then repeat the first part.

[Javis]

Javis - click Settings at the top right, then scroll down on the left bar and click General Settings. Scroll down that menu and select Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing for the Message Editor Interface. If that doesn't help, clear the cookies for this site and log back in, then repeat the first part.

Thanks, Tom ! Alas it didn't work. When i first checked General Settings "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" was already selected (blue radio button). Deleted all SOH cookies, logged in again and same thing: blue radio button at "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" but still no menu... Tried change to "Standard Editor", safe, check (no change), back to Enhanced Interface, safe, no change, no menu... (maybe my rather generous contribution was not appreciated afterall.. d;o)

Sometimes i have a problem with quotes not turning up in the message body but i have never lost the menu !

What can it be ? My default browser is Chrome. I also tried with Edge, no change, no menu.. When i click [More] underneath the smilies nothing happens and probabely this message will look all squished up once posted. I like a bit of space between alineas (paragraphs ?..;-)

Is there something else i could try, Tom ? Thanks !

Edit: Ahh.... atleast i got the spaces back ;-)

Edit2: spaces between paragraphs dissapeared when i changed back to "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" !! I.e. all text squished up again in Enhanced Interface mode......

[jmig]

Thanks, Tom ! Alas it didn't work. When i first checked General Settings "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" was already selected (blue radio button). Deleted all SOH cookies, logged in again and same thing: blue radio button at "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" but still no menu... Tried change to "Standard Editor", safe, check (no change), back to Enhanced Interface, safe, no change, no menu... (maybe my rather generous contribution was not appreciated afterall.. d;o)

Sometimes i have a problem with quotes not turning up in the message body but i have never lost the menu !

What can it be ? My default browser is Chrome. I also tried with Edge, no change, no menu.. When i click [More] underneath the smilies nothing happens and probabely this message will look all squished up once posted. I like a bit of space between alineas (paragraphs ?..;-)

Is there something else i could try, Tom ? Thanks !

Edit: Ahh.... atleast i got the spaces back ;-)

Edit2: spaces between paragraphs dissapeared when i changed back to "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" !! I.e. all text squished up again in Enhanced Interface mode......

Javis, I opened a thread some months ago on this same sort of issue. Even with help from the Staff and fellow SOHer's I never solved my issues. I use Edge and mostly compose in Word then C&P into here.

I know my answer doesn't help you, other than knowing you are not alone.

[SkippyBing]

Just to add on the F-4 there was a cable attached to the stick pre-launch which was set for the correct pitch setting based on weight etc. Essentially this prevented the pilot pulling the stick any further aft than necessary. There's a good bit in Phoenix Squadron by Rowland White where they get the setting wrong launching an RN Phantom off a USN carrier and the pilot has to overcome the clutch in the cable system.

[Javis]

Javis, I opened a thread some months ago on this same sort of issue. Even with help from the Staff and fellow SOHer's I never solved my issues. I use Edge and mostly compose in Word then C&P into here.

I know my answer doesn't help you, other than knowing you are not alone.

Thanks, John !

Did you loose the menu too ? And you can still post pictures, right ?

If it's a 'long' story i usually compose in notepad too and then c/p here. Better safe then sorry ;-)

[Javis]

Yep the disorientation comes from our sense of linear acceleration and pitch being from the same organ - as with all balance organs the ambiguity is resolved by vision (which is why when teaching instrument flying we keep harping on about trusting the instruments!) In conditions of low visual reference (night, rain, fog etc.) the strong linear acceleration of the catapult stroke can be perceived by the pilot as a pitch-up, the instinctive correction of which would be rather disadvantageous!

In the Bug the FLCS does the work based on T/O TRIM which is set for the stores and fuel load, to fly a pre-determined pitch up to shallow climb off the catapult, then the pilot takes over (and apparently they call that handle the towel rail, sources needed haha!)

For the Tomcat, the pilot follows the stick with his hand but again the take-off trim setting does the initial work, photos of the tomcat with large nose-up deflections of the stabilators during the initial part of the cat shot are apparently due to the bob-weight on the stick being pulled aft by inertia during the acceleration, which pulls the stick back.

Oh and carrier ops in DCS, excellent - the Cat is a beast to wrestle around the boat, I don't have the Bug but my clanmates comment that the FLCS makes it a little easier, but still very challenging!

Thank you Whitehawk, Victory103 and John !

Most interesting read ! You don't much think about that when flying a Tomcat at home while drinking a nice cuppa. ;-)

Btw sorry for the late reply, i have a bit problems here with the Post composer..

Oh, and in the mean time i installed DCS again (had it before, absolutely fantastic, but FS is and stays my home sim). Just the basic free version. Fooling around with the P-51 great fun! Intend to buy the Carrier stuff of course but for the moment i can't get my Raptor throttle to work in DCS. Need to fix that first and foremost. ( buttons work but the throttle itself does nothing...)

Thanks again, gents !

[jmig]

Thanks, John !

Did you loose the menu too ? And you can still post pictures, right ?

If it's a 'long' story i usually compose in notepad too and then c/p here. Better safe then sorry ;-)

Fraid that I don't remember. That was like "months ago". You expect me to remember details that long ago?

Thank you ...
Oh, and in the mean time i installed DCS again (had it before, absolutely fantastic, but FS is and stays my home sim). Just the basic free version. Fooling around with the P-51 great fun! Intend to buy the Carrier stuff of course but for the moment i can't get my Raptor throttle to work in DCS. Need to fix that first and foremost. ( buttons work but the throttle itself does nothing...)

Thanks again, gents !

Does the "Control Options in DCS recognize the thrust axis? If so, make sure it is set correctly. Chuck's Guides will give you the recommended axis settings for each airplane.

I have been flying the F-18 almost exclusively. I will fly the F/A-18C in DCS and the Super Warrior in MSFS. In MSFS I fly x-country flights. In DCS I am working toward my Carrier Qual. A real challenge at my age.

[rvn817j]

Oh, and in the mean time i installed DCS again (had it before, absolutely fantastic, but FS is and stays my home sim). Just the basic free version. Fooling around with the P-51 great fun! Intend to buy the Carrier stuff of course but for the moment i can't get my Raptor throttle to work in DCS. Need to fix that first and foremost. ( buttons work but the throttle itself does nothing...)

Thanks again, gents !

I'm not familiar with the Raptor throttle, but in DCS there are several things to check. IIRC, are you assigning the throttle axis (in the axis menu of controls) in the aircraft you are using. Each aircraft in DCS has its own controls menu (and within that menu there are different areas...."sim", "arcade", etc.). I view this as a drawback of DCS, you have to assign controls in each aircraft model, so it's not do it once and forget (but there is great flexibility in DCS). Hope this helps.

[Javis]

Thanks John and Jay !

Re DCS, well, i do understand now that to fly off the deck of a carrier in a highly sophisticated jetfighter is not for the faint of heart. Not for real and not in DCS. Took me two days(and nights!) of investigation, trials and errors just to get that wreched throttle going and now i finally got it going i don't even know how !

And then i lost my Hat Switch control (seems to be default, which is nice, but lost it anyway). Look for help you get all sorts of various hints 'n tips without any result. The tip i was looking for i found myself: just examine the default SU-25 joystick setup.

So i think i finally got the picture about the DCS Control department. Not for the faint of heart indeed. Took big effort but only the Fly-By camera and the extraordinairy tremendous sound of the P-51 already made it worthwhile. I truly LOVE just to taxi around the airfield in External- and Fly(taxi)-By view with the engine back-fire every now and then. Got all the Aircraft Controls and View modes on my stick&throttle working flawlessy now. What a joy ! ;-))

Was a bit dissapointed with the Spitfire...

Got the SuperCarrier too. Any tip what aircraft to buy for a dillitant ? F-18 or F-14 ? ( there's no specific trainer yet, is there ? T-45 or even T-2 ?...

Tremendous amount to learn but i think i passed the first hurdles now.

Thanks again for the help guys !

[Dimus]

There is a nice freeware T-45 you can use to train in carrier ops before spending on the F-18 or the F-14: https://www.vnao-cvw-7.com/t-45-goshawk

Forum discussion and download link here: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/203816-vnao-t-45-goshawk/

However maybe we have gone off topic for this forum and could continue the discussion in the DCS forum?

[Javis]

There is a nice freeware T-45 you can use to train in carrier ops before spending on the F-18 or the F-14: https://www.vnao-cvw-7.com/t-45-goshawk

Forum discussion and download link here: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/203816-vnao-t-45-goshawk/

However maybe we have gone off topic for this forum and could continue the discussion in the DCS forum?

Wow!! That's just great, Dimus, thank you very much ! ;-)

And of course you're right about OT (didn't know we have a DCS forum here...;-) See you guys there and thanks again, Dimus !

[rvn817j]

Got the SuperCarrier too. Any tip what aircraft to buy for a dillitant ? F-18 or F-14 ? ( there's no specific trainer yet, is there ? T-45 or even T-2 ?...

Tremendous amount to learn but i think i passed the first hurdles now.

I forgot to mention in my previous note that there are several "community supported" (read as no charge from folks that have put a lot of effort into developing) aircraft. Some of them rely on models that have to be purchased (but are low cost compared to "full price" modules). I think there is a really nice A-4, an F-22, a Rafael coming soon and more.

One of the most cost effective purchases you can make is for "Flaming Cliffs 3". IIRC, that one purchase includes several very good models (A-10A, F-15C, Mig 29 and Su 33). It is even better when Eagle Dynamics throws a sale (which is pretty often).


If you have the Super Carrier you have to have the F/A-18C...likely the most well developed module. It goes aboard easier than the F-14, but in the F-14 you have Jester and some other additions. The F-14 is really good also. So is the F-16 and the A-10C II (obviously not for the carrier).

(I hate to admit it, but I purchased way more modules than I can keep up with. I am not sorry, however, they all look fantastic.)

Moving myself to DCS Forum.