What is it with MSFS and taildraggers?

[jmig]

I can't get a damn one to work. Every time I try to take off in one the damn thing goes to the left. I just tried the P-40. It goes in circles. If I slow down it goes straight, add throttle and round and around the mulberry bush. The Ryan does the same thing, but I can get it off the ground before hitting anything. This doesn't happen to tricycle gear aircraft, only taildraggers.

I know MSFS had problems with this early on, but it has been an entire year. What gives with these so called programmers.

Yes, I am pissed!

[tiger1962]

You're not alone! Far from it: The only taildragger I've got off the ground in a crosswind so far is the X Cub Crafter, with a lot of rudder and maximum opposite aileron. It's not an experience I've cared to repeat... MSFS Taildraggers are hangar queens - unless they have floats and even then you have to edit the water rudder turn angle from 60 to 90 degrees before they'll work.

[K5083]

I 100% agree. The modeling of crosswinds and its effect on taildraggers in MSFS thus far is abysmal. You can learn to beat it on most planes, but you're just learning to beat a stupid video game, not learning any real-world flying technique.

August

[JAllen]

Yes it is pathetic at best.
I set my rudder sensitivity to -70. Tamed it nicely for me.

[K5083]

The problem with reducing your rudder sensitivity is that it makes it harder, sometimes impossible, to correct for the wild crosswind swings on takeoff. You need all the rudder authority you can get at that moment.

My solution, since I got an X56 HOTAS, has been to map one of the mini sticks to the rudder, in addition to the pedals. (You could also do this with the twist on most joysticks.) The foot pedals are set to 30% or 70%, depending on the plane The secondary rudder control on the stick is set to 100%,and is used only for sharp turns when taxiing and for catching the wild swing on crosswind takeoffs.

August

[Tom Clayton]

It's a well-known issue over at the official board. Bring your speed up slowly through 40 knots - that's usually where it kicks in. Be ready with rudder, then once the tail is flying you might just make it.

[YoYo]

It's a well-known issue over at the official board. Bring your speed up slowly through 40 knots - that's usually where it kicks in. Be ready with rudder, then once the tail is flying you might just make it.

Yes, for me this is worse FM issue in MSFS, but they confirmed it as a bug and they are working on it? It looks like to 40 kts rudder doesnt have any efficiency, and after reaching a speed of about 40 kts suddenly it was full efficiency, it doesn't work gradually and this is an obvious FM bug. FSX, P3D, DCS, IL-2 has this behavior is much better! And no, blocking tail wheel doesnt help.

[jmig]

Yes, for me this is worse FM issue in MSFS, but they confirmed it as a bug and they are working on it? It looks like to 40 kts rudder doesnt have any efficiency, and after reaching a speed of about 40 kts suddenly it was full efficiency, it doesn't work gradually and this is an obvious FM bug. FSX, P3D, DCS, IL-2 has this behavior is much better! And no, blocking tail wheel doesnt help.

I am well aware that it is a known bug. The reason I am angry with Asobo is that after a year they haven't done diddly squat to fix the issue. I own a set of rudder pedals made by this young engineer in Poland. They are fine rudder pedals and work well, except in MSFS. Yesterday, when my P-40 was cutting donuts in simulated grass, I switched to External view. The rudder was all the way to the right, but we were making left 360's. The only way for me to fly the P-40 or Corsair is to start in the air or use Slew and F4 to get altitude. Setting right rudder trim on he ground does nothing for me.

Looking at all the screenshots and images of the Spitfire makes me interested in buying it. But why? So it can veer to the left, run into the trees, flip upside down, and bury me four feet underground. I don't think sooo.

[ColoKent]

Agree wholeheartedly, John. This isn’t just a “bug” IMHO….it is pretty much the major flaw afflicting this sim that otherwise has huge potential (and I was one of the early, grumbling naysayers who has since come around). I have wiped out more MILVIZ Corsairs on takeoff than anyone I know…. With airplanes like the DH Beaver coming… and hopefully eventually the AH DC-3 and god forbid, the A2A P-51D…this is a MAJOR flaw that must be addressed ASAP, IMHO.

Kent

[YoYo]

@Tom, do you know something more? They confirmed this issue and are working on it? Do you know something about it? It drives me crazy too.

[Tom Clayton]

I'm not on staff at the official forum, so I don't have any more info that what they've posted publicly. I think I'm going to take the XCub for a hop in the Caribbean in a few minutes - it's been a while. I'll let you know if I se anything unusual.

[Tom Clayton]

I just did a hop from TNCM to TFFJ and had no issues with the XCub. But one thing about that plane is that it doesn't have a castering tailwheel. The max steering angle is set to 90°, which is really too much. To pivot on one main, it should be set to about 70° max. More than that would put the center of the turn between the mains and have them going in opposite directions. I think I'll set the tailwheel to caster (set steering angle to 180°) and see what that does. I can tell you that the tail was flying before 40 KIAS, so I'm betting the only real difference will be taxiing.

Edit - yeah... Don't try a castering tailwheel. on the XCub. I should be able to kick full rudder and give it just a little throttle to kick the tail around, but that doesn't work until you're moving forward enough to have rudder authority with little or no actual thrust. I'm setting mine to 70° and leaving the rest alone. At least the systems.cfg already has the diff. braking activated.

[PRB]

All the default tail dragger A/C seem manageable. The two that I have that are difficult to handle are the Flying Iron Spitfire and the Milviz Corsair. But it doesn't seem to me that it's the rudder authority that kicks in at ~40 knots, but the torque or p-factor, or whatever it is that causes the plane to swing left. If you just motor on down the runway with no rudder input, it will go straight until about 40 knots, then you're along for the ride. And it isn't crosswind, as others have pointed out. I've managed to tame the Spitfire during take off by setting 7 degrees right rudder trim before takeoff. During the take off roll, apply back elevator and right aileron. She takes off with no fuss at all. Landings are still "expensive" though... I wish there was a way to observe the aerodynamic data in the sim. FS9/X/P3D have a nice program for that. Forget the name of it. Then we could see what's "kicking in" at 40 knots. There is supposed to be a "virtual wind tunnel" available if you're in dev mode but I haven't been able to get it to work.

[bazzar]

The revised SDK documentation and data is out but STILL no castoring tail-wheel. I'm beginning to think we never see one.

[Tom Clayton]

It's not documented, but setting the steering to 180 is the switch for castering. The stock DA40 is set that way. But from my limited experimentation, rudder steering with the caster is abysmal.

[bazzar]

Are you sure that tail-wheel is actually castoring? I.E. Use differential braking to turn and then brake fully keeping the rudder over. Does the wheel centre?

[YoYo]

I'm not on staff at the official forum, so I don't have any more info that what they've posted publicly. I think I'm going to take the XCub for a hop in the Caribbean in a few minutes - it's been a while. I'll let you know if I se anything unusual.

So pls to all, who dont like this strange bevavior during take off and landing taildraggers, report this FM bug behavior with rudder. I dont know, that they are working on it or not, but Im sure more votes for this = better chance for solving this issue. From one year this issue is still present. I'll do it Today and I see that they working on reported bugs, 4 issuess reported by me for Zlin Shock Ultra are marked as solved from Today!

Click: https://flightsimulator.zendesk.com/...s/requests/new (you must be logged).

[JAllen]

Are we trying to fly tailwheel with a nose gear view point?
Perhaps we need schooling? Study these, especially pt 1. Where differences are explained. I am.


https://youtu.be/E3q2Swzi2q8

https://youtu.be/Ow_x0O8a53Q

[K5083]

Those are very good and interesting videos. Thanks for that.

But, it seems beyond question, the sim flight model is still broken. As noted above, the uncommanded excursions happen even when there is no crosswind. And they happen in a sudden, off/on way that is unrealistic and very difficult to catch, if you have the control authority to catch them at all, which often you don't.

Crosswinds actually are a distinct bug in the game, with all aircraft being excessively sensitive to them, including the default ones and even to some extent tricycle gear planes. Whereas the wild swings caused by torque, or whatever they are trying to model, seem to affect mainly add-on taildraggers.

August

[Alan_A]

It's not torque. The uncommanded leftward excursion is not only independent of crosswind, it's independent of power. You can use a low power setting and a long groundroll, and you'll still get it at 40 knots. As YoYo notes above, it's the result of the rudder suddenly going from zero to 100 percent effectiveness at that speed. In taildraggers it's compounded by the absence of a castoring tailwheel and by persistent ground friction issues - which aren't as bad as they were during the tech alpha, but they're still there.

In other words, it's all about the bugs and has nothing to do with flying technique.

[tiger1962]

You can use a low power setting and a long groundroll, and you'll still get it at 40 knots. As YoYo notes above, it's the result of the rudder suddenly going from zero to 100 percent effectiveness at that speed.

This is correct and can be adjusted in the flight_model.cfg [CONTACT_POINTS], for example here's the Savage Cub:

max_speed_full_steering = 10 ; Defines the speed under which the full angle of steering is available (in feet/second).
max_speed_decreasing_steering = 20 ; Defines the speed above which the angle of steering stops decreasing (in feet/second).

Put a 1 in front of each those numbers and note the difference on take-off:

max_speed_full_steering = 110 ; Defines the speed under which the full angle of steering is available (in feet/second).
max_speed_decreasing_steering = 120 ; Defines the speed above which the angle of steering stops decreasing (in feet/second).

[bazzar]

I still want that castoring tailwheel. To me there is no point in trying to perfect any sort of takeoff or landing in a tail-dragger unless the wheels are doing what they are supposed to do. The sim needs fixing. I can still do handbrake donuts in the Icon in the middle of the Atlantic. So add "proper" floats to the list.

[Tom Clayton]

Bazzar, All I know is what the sim thinks it's supposed to be doing. I also know that when I have the tail-wheel set to 180, I can use diff braking to get it spinning on one main, then take my hands off everything and the plane stops turning like the back end ran into a wall. It behaves (a little) more realistically when you have virtual steering cables running down to the tail wheel. So for now, that's how I'm running it - I call it a field mod...

[cavaricooper]

Give this a try... not half bad... https://discord.com/channels/7933762...99794853232641

[bazzar]

Tom, I'm not talking about behaviour here. I am referring to the fact that castoring animation does not appear to be supported. Control cables are not for castoring wheels they are for rudder linked tailwheel or what is called a "steerable tailwheel". Castoring tailwheels cannot be controlled or steered. They just follow the rear of the aircraft making it easier to turn. Just like a shopping trolley. The Spitfire has a castoring tailwheel. The Cessna 140 does not, that is a steerable, rudder-linked (via sprung cables) tailwheel which turns when you apply the rudder, even when stationary. Turn the rudder on a Spitfire when stationary and nothing will/should happen to the tailwheel. Start moving forward and the tailwheel should swing to assist with the turn and re-centre when you brake to a stop again. It is this animation/behaviour which is not properly coded in the sim right now.