The 'Best Car' Argument
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Thread: The 'Best Car' Argument

  1. #1

    Lightbulb The 'Best Car' Argument

    IMHO, is not a viable one for the following:

    - Bottas vs Rosberg
    - Bottas vs Russel
    - Ricciardo vs Albon/Gasly

    Arguably, Lewis has had the toughest teammates in that he's had 3 world champions for teammates (Alonso, Button, Rosberg)

  2. #2
    You win seven titles in a row, you have the best car. Period.
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  3. #3
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    But the best looking car this weekend are the McLarens.....

    Cheers,
    Huub

  4. #4
    I always thought the 'Best Car' was a 'Company Car', they cost you nothing, go just as fast in reverse as in forward, go on and on without requiring one to check the oil, water, anti freeze, air con gas, and fuel was ALWAYS free!


    Oh all right, you left out Ricciardo vs Verstappen ED.


    "Illegitimum non carborundum".

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  5. #5

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferry_vO View Post
    You win seven titles in a row, you have the best car. Period.
    It goes beyond that.
    Notices that Mercedes hasn't had squat for a driver since Rosberg.

    And in one race, Russell has shown that he's potentially as good as Rosberg if not better!

    Did any of Schumacher's team mates win a World Championship?
    No. - But Rosberg Did.

    Did any of Vettel's team mates win a World Championship?
    No - But Rosberg did.

    It is more than just the car - period.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huub vink View Post
    But the best looking car this weekend are the McLarens.....

    Cheers,
    Huub
    AGREED 100%%%%

  6. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by wombat666 View Post
    Oh all right, you left out Ricciardo vs Verstappen ED.
    Yup
    And like Mercedes and Rosberg, Red Bull haven't had a decent 2nd driver since Ricciardo/Webber.

  7. #7
    I just thought of Fangio in 1955, the usual lineup consisted of Fangio and Moss, plus either one or even two 'locals' native to where ever the Grand Prix was held.
    We'll never know if Fangio 'allowed' Moss to win the British GP at Aintree that season, but Fangio blitzed the entire season in what was undoubtedly the best car, even if it was reputedly difficult to drive.
    So here's a thought, Moss was head and shoulders above most drivers during his lengthy career but it seems he was no match for the Maestro.
    "Illegitimum non carborundum".

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  8. #8
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    I think we can all agree that the Mercedes has been the best car for the last 7 years. We had a small period that Ferrari could compete, but as we all know by now that this was more because the brand with the prancing horse used another set of rules. When you look at the number of races where the Mercedesses ended at the top two steps of the podium, I don't think there is any doubt.

    Although I'm not more than a well willing enthusiast, I believe the the top teams put their drivers on the track with equal cars. The points the second driver gets won't go to the other teams, so there is a clear reason to keep his as fast as possible. When there are choices to make, I think the first driver will always have the advantage, however there are quite some teams where it isn't clear who the first driver is. In that case I think the one with the best standing will get the advantage.

    With the less rich teams there are simply more choices to make, but I think they use more or less the same strategy.

    So far I never had a company car, but the advantages are obvious. So I do agree with Wombat, the best car is a free one!

    Cheers,
    Huub

  9. #9
    It goes beyond that.
    Notices that Mercedes hasn't had squat for a driver since Rosberg.
    [/QUOTE]

    And after three years of fighting between Hamilton and Rosberg, they don't want one. Bottas is a great wingman for Lewis, and gets the points for the championship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Panther_99FS View Post
    Did any of Schumacher's team mates win a World Championship?
    No. - But Rosberg Did.

    Did any of Vettel's team mates win a World Championship?
    No - But Rosberg did.
    Would Rosberg have won the title if Hamilton's engine hadn't blown in Malaysia? Probably not.

    Did Vettel win a title after he left Red Bull for Ferrari, or Alonso?

    Yes, Hamilton is a great driver, one who can really get more from his tires than probably any other driver on the grid, but can he still win titles in a Ferrari or Mclaren..? Guess we'll never know.
    Paddy Lowe recently admitted in an interview that in 2014 (First year of the second turbo era) Mercedes had to detune the car, otherwise they would've lapped the rest of the grid in every race.
    Even in 2016 they could have won every race if they hadn't crashed in Spain, and the incidents in Malaysia.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wombat666 View Post
    I just thought of Fangio in 1955, the usual lineup consisted of Fangio and Moss, plus either one or even two 'locals' native to where ever the Grand Prix was held.
    We'll never know if Fangio 'allowed' Moss to win the British GP at Aintree that season, but Fangio blitzed the entire season in what was undoubtedly the best car, even if it was reputedly difficult to drive.
    So here's a thought, Moss was head and shoulders above most drivers during his lengthy career but it seems he was no match for the Maestro.
    I once heard Stirling musing on whether Fangio "let" him win the Aintree GP. I think he believed that Fangio was gracious enough to permit it, but also gentleman enough to never admit that he had done so. Two qualities rarely referred to these days in F1.

    Stirling did say that, as he came out of the last corner, he waved Fangio by - while having his throttle buried to the floor! He also said that he considered Fangio to be the best in F1 cars but that he thought that he had the measure of him in sportscars.

    The one time that Fangio struggled with the W196 in'54 was when they ran the streamliners at the British GP at Silverstone. The corners at Silverstone were marked with oil drums (now that would curtail Max and his "track limits are for others" attitude) and photographs show how battered the corner bodywork of Fangio's W196 was by the end of the race. He complained that he could not place his front inside wheels as accurately as he wanted in corners because he could not see them. After that the open-wheeled version was used for every race bar the two Italian GPs that used the high speed banking. So maybe not being able to see the wheels in sportscars was Fangio's kryptonite.

  11. #11
    "The one time that Fangio struggled with the W196 in'54 was when they ran the streamliners at the British GP at Silverstone. The corners at Silverstone were marked with oil drums (now that would curtail Max and his "track limits are for others" attitude) and photographs show how battered the corner bodywork of Fangio's W196 was by the end of the race. He complained that he could not place his front inside wheels as accurately as he wanted in corners because he could not see them. After that the open-wheeled version was used for every race bar the two Italian GPs that used the high speed banking. So maybe not being able to see the wheels in sportscars was Fangio's kryptonite."

    That was one very tatty W196 streamliner post race.
    One of Fangios remarkable qualities in Sports Car Competition was his insistence in not taking a navigator on board (only a factor in an event such as the Mille or the Carrera) due to losing his co-driver in one of the epic open road events he dominated in Argentina.
    Mercedes Benz had an 'interesting' approach' to events such as Le Mans: of the four cars entered every driver was cross entered for each car, with Uhlenhart included as an extra driver.
    "Illegitimum non carborundum".

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  12. #12
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    Well the Monaco race is done. The future was on the podium. As most edition, a boring race (except when you are Dutch).
    It seemed everybody except for Red Bull struggled with the front. (Valtteri Bottas in an extreme way).

    Cheers,
    Huub

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferry_vO View Post
    It goes beyond that.
    Notices that Mercedes hasn't had squat for a driver since Rosberg.


    And after three years of fighting between Hamilton and Rosberg, they don't want one. Bottas is a great wingman for Lewis, and gets the points for the championship.

    Would Rosberg have won the title if Hamilton's engine hadn't blown in Malaysia? Probably not.

    Did Vettel win a title after he left Red Bull for Ferrari, or Alonso?

    Yes, Hamilton is a great driver, one who can really get more from his tires than probably any other driver on the grid, but can he still win titles in a Ferrari or Mclaren..? Guess we'll never know.
    Paddy Lowe recently admitted in an interview that in 2014 (First year of the second turbo era) Mercedes had to detune the car, otherwise they would've lapped the rest of the grid in every race.
    Even in 2016 they could have won every race if they hadn't crashed in Spain, and the incidents in Malaysia.
    Again, if it's so much the car then:
    Why haven't any of Vettel's or Schumacher's team mates won a Championship?

    Why hasn't Bottas won a Championship?
    And you answer about Mercedes not wanting a good driver is a pure assumption unless you can back it up with a factual statement.

    And if you look at Red Bull, the performance shows that Max has been the best driver over Ricciardo, Albon, Gasly. Do you want to admit this or would you rather admit that the car was more suited to Max's driving style and Max isn't necessarily best of the 3 drivers?

    Can you answer those questions?

  14. #14

    Icon2

    Quote Originally Posted by huub vink View Post
    Well the Monaco race is done. The future was on the podium. As most edition, a boring race (except when you are Dutch).
    It seemed everybody except for Red Bull struggled with the front. (Valtteri Bottas in an extreme way).

    Cheers,
    Huub
    I loved seeing McLaren on the Podium!
    On a side note, I wonder if Ricciardo is having a bit of "buyer's remorse".....?

    Tough gamble for Ferrari - change the gearbox and you drop 5 places on the grid - or risk starting P1 with an issue.

  15. #15

    Lightbulb

    Addendum: I think a perfect example of "it's not the best car" argument right now is Alpha Tauri.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Panther_99FS View Post

    Can you answer those questions?
    Yes, but I'm not going to.
    For some reason it is hard for you to accept that Mercedes have the biggest budget, most staff, best car and engine, possibly one of the best F1 drivers ever, and with that have won fourteen titles over the past seven years.
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  17. #17

    Icon2

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferry_vO View Post
    Yes, but I'm not going to.
    For some reason it is hard for you to accept that Mercedes have the biggest budget, most staff, best car and engine, possibly one of the best F1 drivers ever, and with that have won fourteen titles over the past seven years.
    And for "some reason", it is hard for you to accept just how good Lewis is....having triumphed over 3 world champions as team mates (Button, Alonso, Rosberg)...


  18. #18

    Lightbulb

    Addendum:
    Let's look at the 2018 season
    Hamilton won the championship with Vettel in second, Kimi in third, Max in fourth and Bottas in 5th.

    Now if you remove Hamilton, Vettel, and Max from the equation, (as "Number 1"/"preferenced/team orders drivers on the team), the championship would look as follows:

    1: Raikkonen
    2: Bottas
    3: Ricciardo

    Which was the "best" car on the grid?
    Was it the Ferrari or was Kimi a better driver than Bottas?

  19. #19
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    I really don't understand what you try to say. I haven't heard anyone deny the talent of Lewis Hamilton. But I think you have to agree that he wouldn't have been 7 times world champion when he would have driven a Williams or a Haas.

    In 2018 Bottas finished seven times in second place, as he did in 2019. The first year the combination Ferrari/Raikonen/Vettel was faster over the complete season than the combination Bottas/Mercedes, or perhaps Bottas just had less luck, or perhaps he was not as concentrated as he should have been as his marriage was about to fall apart. in 2018 Bottas ended 5th in the championship and in 2019 the results were enough to end second.

    When I follow your way of thinking, Albon has more talent than Vettel as Albon finished 7th in the 2020 season and Vettel finished only 13nd.

    As said, nobody denies Lewis has talent, but in a technical sport the hardware is more than half the result.

    Cheers,
    Huub

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by huub vink View Post
    I really don't understand what you try to say. I haven't heard anyone deny the talent of Lewis Hamilton. But I think you have to agree that he wouldn't have been 7 times world champion when he would have driven a Williams or a Haas.
    Cheers,
    Huub
    Definitely not!
    Which goes back to the disparity between Gasly and Tsunoda - with Gasly being clearly the "better" driver.
    (Arguably better than Albon - but that's another discussion)

    So if Lewis were in a Williams or Haas, the question is whether or not Lewis would be performing like Gasly - my answer to this is "yes" seeing how Lewis has dominated over Button, Rosberg, and Alonso all in the same car.

  21. #21
    From day one Schumacher never had a team mate on an equal footing, his contracts stipulated he was the lead driver and the second driver was just that, a backup.
    Even in his early days at Benetton he was allowed to dictate who the 'backup' could be, after a torrid season with Martin Brundle who raced better than he qualified and logically should have
    continued with the team, Schumacher vetoed his re-signing.
    And let's not forget Barrichello, the backup who demonstrated just how it worked under the Schumacher regime in Austria.
    As for Hamilton, his contract negotiations seem to usually take some time, probably as MB reluctantly agree to his eternal lead driver status and appalling financial demands.
    Bottas may well have accepted his position in the same way as Eddie Irvine did at FIAT, 'I'm only there for the money' was 'Fast Eddie's' philosophy.
    After the years of Rosberg refusing to do as 'Team Hamilton' wished it became obvious why they (MB) signed a competent and compliant number 2, Bottas is quick and more importantly follows orders.
    The point where your argument falls down is glaringly obvious
    Ed, the major players care nothing for the drivers, their 'cars' (and I use the word 'cars' loosely!) must win and that is all she wrote.
    Monaco demonstrated once again the ridiculous depths the 'Pinnacle of Motorsport' has plumbed, the complete opposite of DORNA and MotoGP.
    I'll get orf me soapbox now.


    Addendum: During the little time I bothered watching Monaco I was very interested in the way Gasly cleaned Hamilton's clock and the ridiculous pit stop cock up by the 'best team' who apparently
    do not know how to not cross thread a wheel nut on their multi million dollar car!
    And FIAT were once the team that provided the most hilarious pit stop bungles.







    "Illegitimum non carborundum".

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