Simworks Studios Phantom and Coral Sea Issues . . .
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  1. #1

    Simworks Studios Phantom and Coral Sea Issues . . .

    Just installed the recent SWS PBR Phantom update. It looks, as did the last install, very matt and greyish. Is this how it's supposed to look with PBR? Isn't PBR supposed to give a more dynamic shine to the textures? Frankly, I wonder why I paid for an upgrade just to have a PBR version if this is the result.

    Also, I have lost catapult functionality on the SWS Coral Sea (that no longer comes with the PBR F-4) with their F-4 and all other aircrafft. Promissed fixes have not materialised.

    I have to say this is all disappointing. At least there is a good freeware Phantom around . .



    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Just installed the recent SWS PBR Phantom update. It looks, as did the last install, very matt and greyish. Is this how it's supposed to look with PBR? Isn't PBR supposed to give a more dynamic shine to the textures?
    I don't own the PBR version of the SWS Phantom, so I can't comment. I did want to chime in about PBR though... It can certainly make polished aluminium look fantastic (e.g. on the century series fighters etc.), but it does waaaaay more than that. For me the appearance of the exterior of a model is important, but what is more so is where all the action takes place (and where most time is spent in a flight sim), i.e. in the cockpit. PBR can play a very important role inside the cockpit, because it is especially good for bringing life to glass, plastics, rubber and fabrics... all of which are present in different quantities. Together the different scattering of light for all of these can give an unparalleled level of immersion. Granted, to date most developers have fixated on PBR for their exteriors, but when they really get to work in their cockpits the benefits will appear to be magic!

    i9-10900K, 64 Gb RAM, RTX 3090 FE, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reverb G2

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Just installed the recent SWS PBR Phantom update. It looks, as did the last install, very matt and greyish. Is this how it's supposed to look with PBR? Isn't PBR supposed to give a more dynamic shine to the textures? Frankly, I wonder why I paid for an upgrade just to have a PBR version if this is the result.

    Also, I have lost catapult functionality on the SWS Coral Sea (that no longer comes with the PBR F-4) with their F-4 and all other aircrafft. Promissed fixes have not materialised.

    I have to say this is all disappointing. At least there is a good freeware Phantom around . .



    If you're running Win10 ; I had a recent update screwed up the C++ (Microsoft Visual Studio stuff) ; as when I installed the F-4 for FSX
    (FSX 'Gold' edition) ; the gear wouldn't work until I re-installed the Acceleration pack as a last resort.

    ttfn

    Pete

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Just installed the recent SWS PBR Phantom update. It looks, as did the last install, very matt and greyish. Is this how it's supposed to look with PBR? Isn't PBR supposed to give a more dynamic shine to the textures? Frankly, I wonder why I paid for an upgrade just to have a PBR version if this is the result.

    Also, I have lost catapult functionality on the SWS Coral Sea (that no longer comes with the PBR F-4) with their F-4 and all other aircrafft. Promissed fixes have not materialised.
    PBR is a different lighting/shading model that makes things pop more, indeed. Most "active" variants of the Phantom, like the one pictured, are matte because they were in reality. You wouldn't want a shiny aircraft to give you away to the enemy. So while it does look cool, you would not normally see a deployed aircraft being shiny, with rare exceptions such as VF-51 who did it out of swagger.

    Regarding the Coral Sea issues, we are still working on the fix. Because it affects a very limited number of people, it is a hard nut to crack and fix consistently. It is a problem affecting 1% of our naval customers, but we don't want to issue a fix that addresses 1 but breaks 99. I hope that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motormouse View Post
    If you're running Win10 ; I had a recent update screwed up the C++ (Microsoft Visual Studio stuff) ; as when I installed the F-4 for FSX
    (FSX 'Gold' edition) ; the gear wouldn't work until I re-installed the Acceleration pack as a last resort.

    ttfn

    Pete
    Pete, that is an interesting observation and is worth a look.

    SimWorks Studios

    Alex Vletsas

    3D Modeler & Animator
    http://www.simworksstudios.com
    http://www.facebook.com/SimWorksStudios

  5. #5
    Thanks Alex.
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  6. #6
    @expat, just test flew that repaint in v4.5 with the latest PBR update and it looks correct in my set up as SiR_RiPPer described. Own/fly both payware F-4s, but applaud the updating effort of the AS freeware. The RF-4s would be cool to do some low level recce in.
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  7. #7
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    Cross-posting here because it may be of help to users of the SWS boats and the RFN F-8:


    A little "good news" regarding the RFN F-8 Crusader interop with the SWS boats. I'm running P3Dv4.5, but I think this interop issue is present on the FSX installs too, so hopefully this helps.

    So the problem was that I couldn't get the F-9 to either trap or hook up at the cat on either of the 3 period SWS boats ('65 Coral Sea, '73 Coral Sea, '73 Midway). So recently, SWS updated their CEV/ACA config files, and so with the latest version of the boats installed, I doublechecked and found the F-8 in the settings, but it still didn't work.

    And then I recalled a completely unrelated interop problem I had with another model, and how I had inadvertently caused it because I renamed the main aircraft folder I'm quite fussy that all the aircraft in my simobjects folder be named correctly and consistently. So I had renamed the F-8 from "Crusader_F-8E_RFN_---P3D" to Vought F-8E Crusader". I like the manufacturer and then the model and then the name. Anyway, I renamed the main aircraft model to RFN default, and it works well*. I renamed it back to what I wanted, and it stopped working. Renamed back to default a 2nd time, and it worked* correctly. So I conclude that you have to leave the folder name unchanged, because CEV somehow has that tied to it's config settings for that aircraft.

    That makes little sense given that I "correctly" relabel most of my aircraft, including the Razbam A-7s, for example from whatever they were originally to "Vought A-7E Corsair II" and it never had an issue trapping and launching. So its a bit puzzling, but the point is my RFN F-8 now launches and traps from the SWS boats withing (too much*) issue.

    I should note, I had no issue launching / trapping with the other boats I used - the SDB CVN-65, or Gary's Oriskany boats.

    *Note - I've asterisked the the words "works correctly" because while they indeed hook up to the SWS cats, I lose both the bridle that RFN modelled, as well as the correct orientation. Instead of sitting nose high/squatted, engaging the SWS catapult rotates the aircraft forward in pitch to a 0 deg angle of attack (so nosewheel on deck but main 2' up in the air), which frankly ticks me off. But then again, their own F-4 sits sunken 1' below the surface of the deck when engaged to the cat engaged, so I think there's multiple issues there.

    The other thing I did with the SWS '65 Coral Sea is used the layout tool to untick static aircraft formations containing F-4s. So if you start with "crowded deck", then de-select yellow dots representing the aircraft cluster next to the island (you lose the F-4s but unfortunately the S-2 Tracker too) as well as the cluster of F-4s ranged along the right-hand side of the starboard forward cat, AND you add back in the cluster of A-4s ranged along the port forward cat - you now have a partially accurate early mid '60s (more specifically 1964) fit with just A-4s and A-1s on deck. In this configuration, you can get get an uninterrupted flow for circuits from the landing area then steering right to use the starboard cat for launch, and then repeating, without bumping into/taxiing through any deck statics. It's a fairly "crowded" deck with the F-4s removed so you can get the immersion of flying on a crowded CVN from the right period.

    Not perfect, because there's no static F-8s, but that's the compromise that works best for me. Until Gary releases his stunning updated Essex boats, this is one configuration SWS owners can use to get by in the interim. Pretend you're the last in your F-8 squadron to launch and the first to recover, as reason for why you're the only F-8 on deck ...

    Anyway hope this gets you SWS boat owners going with the F-8 if that's a configuration you like.

    DL

  8. #8
    DL - appreciate your research. Not sure I am nearly as solved as you are yet.Alex - just realised I get this error message when I select P3Dv4 airplanes when I go into the CEX configurator thing. Could this be the mysterysovled?
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  9. #9
    More testing results.Trying first with AICarriers2 Gary's Midway, O-boat and Wombraider's Kitty Hawk, I could get cat bridles set for e.g., the Virtavia A-4, RFN F-8 and SWS F-4.Loading the SWS CV43 I could not get any bridles on any of these aircraft. Could not launch. ALSO: I can no longer get the parked deck animations and have not changed the setup for this since it had previously been working. May have been working intermittently recently. Worse: Now I am getting P3D crashes when exiting AICarriers2 !!!! Wished I had kept things simple a while back . .
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  10. #10
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    What order did you install everything in?

    I did l1) egacy F-4, 2) PBR F-4, 3) Midway.

    The crash of P3D on AIC2 exit was the subject of my question in the AICarriers2 thread. Once I uninstalled everything, and reinstalled in the above order, I have (thus far, fingers crossed) had no more crashes on AIC2 remove formation.

    That said, I find it curious that both you and are complaining of some buggy carrier performance issues, and both are still running W7. Probably coincidence, but it's part of my rationale for getting ready for migration to W10.

    FWIW, I'm personally happy with the looks of the PBR F-4 skin texture, I think the more matte colouring reflects reality, at least the operational ones I've been around when I "was in" - CF-5B, CF-188, and those of visiting air arms' a/c during "normal" (not show) operations.

    The AB effect I'm not thrilled about - resembles a pair of giant carrots who've somehow badly lost their way. My hair isn't on fire on that one, but it's far less attractive than the MV F-4 was, or even the latest freeware F-4 effect. AB effects seem to be a polarizing issue; too bright, too faint, too short, etc. I think it's too orange and and too long, but it's not a hill to die on for me. I'm still in settings test phase of a bunch of my addons post hotfix, so some visual adjustments may still be in order.

    dl

  11. #11
    Following your lead D L, I uninstalled all things SWS I could find. Reinstalled the legacy F4, then the PBR F4 over that. I don't have the Midway battle group.

    Two things: first, there is no legacy set of Phantoms separate from the PBR ones. So may I assume the PBR F-4 installed "over" the legacy install? Just one set in the P3Dv4 Add Ons folder. Second, some more A - B tests showed that the SWS F-4 and various freeware a/c attach fine to Gary's freeware CV-41 and neither the SWS F-4 nor freeware aircraft will attach bridles or launch from SWS CV-43 1965 that came with the legacy SWS F-4.

    I am about to give up altogether on this.
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  12. #12
    Correct on the overwrite if you installed the PBR over the original. That is what I found in my set up as I went looking for the extra paints (non-PBR). I'm back working the P3D boat issues with all my models as I forgot I had some other payware carriers like the Team SBD Big E and Haze Gray USN ships.
    Fly Navy/Army
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  13. #13
    An important note! Our carriers will not work if spawned with AI Carriers or TacPack. We are using a scratch-built system that requires us to remove FSX attachpoints from them. The only way to be get them working is to use the SWS Fleet utility, which is installed automatically with all the ships.

    Our Fleet Placer can spawn any carrier and it will launch and trap aircraft. Our ships can only be used with our utility, though, because otherwise FSX/P3D won't let us make custom shooters, animated arrestor cables, the statics system and all the other things we have. Please refer to the online manual, as our carrier tech is very extensive and AI Carriers is a common pitfall in this particular issue.

    There is a hook-up issue indeed and we've been fighting it for weeks, but if you don't use the SWS Fleet it is guaranteed that you won't launch or recover with SWS carriers.

    As for PBR overwriting the legacy one, that is the intention and how the package was engineered. The PBR version includes the same paints as the old one, so it would make no sense (and cause conflicts) to have both installed. So they just overwrite it.

    SimWorks Studios

    Alex Vletsas

    3D Modeler & Animator
    http://www.simworksstudios.com
    http://www.facebook.com/SimWorksStudios

  14. #14
    Alex, thanks, that is helpful and I think isolates my issues down to just the one with the hookup.
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  15. #15
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    I assumed you were using Fleets to begin with.

    Are the planes you're trying to use listed with an entry in the CEV/ACA app? Have they been calibrated?

    If they're not even listed, nothing will happen there either.

  16. #16
    I have only used fleets with the SWS CV43 as I have not found info on how to create parking spaces on other carriers, i.e., so you can use the "warp to" function, which is a nice feature.

    In the CEX I get an error I posted here a day or so ago BUT all the relevant aircraft are listed and checked in the box. Earlier it also looked like the the "save" box was greyed out but now it seems to work. I note that my CEX folder looks like it did not get updated since 2017 with all the subsequent SWS updates. Have not done or needed to do the calibration step previously to do cats and traps.
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  17. #17
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    I have only used fleets with the SWS CV43 as I have not found info on how to create parking spaces on other carriers, i.e., so you can use the "warp to" function, which is a nice feature.

    In the CEX I get an error I posted here a day or so ago BUT all the relevant aircraft are listed and checked in the box. Earlier it also looked like the the "save" box was greyed out but now it seems to work. I note that my CEX folder looks like it did not get updated since 2017 with all the subsequent SWS updates. Have not done or needed to do the calibration step previously to do cats and traps.
    Sounds like SWS needs to help you out.

    I found the PBR F-4 overwrote the current CEX stuff, so per their instructions in my ticket, I had to reinstall the Midway pack as the last step to bring the full CEX functionality back. Since you don't have that, I'm at a bit of a loss.

    Perhaps uninstall everything, download and install the latest version of the legacy F-4 first and for now, stop there. That should give you fairly recent CEX functionality, enough so to determine if the RFN F-8 config is there, and if it is and correctly installed on the two (1965 and 1973) versions of the included Coral Sea, then it should work. Then wait and see until the other fixes are in before installing the PBR version? Not ideal, but that's about all I can recommend.

    My SWS tickets get answered in roughly 2 days, so I'm sure this will get sorted eventually.

    dl

  18. #18
    Thanks DL. I think I will try one more reinstall, however, I think I need to install the legacy F-4 to get a fresh install of the CV-43 1965 that comes with it. Alternatively I can move and save the simobjects folder for it and just install the PBR F-4, but that might miss out some CV-43 functionality. Alex may be around and may comment.
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  19. #19
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Thanks DL. I think I will try one more reinstall, however, I think I need to install the legacy F-4 to get a fresh install of the CV-43 1965 that comes with it. Alternatively I can move and save the simobjects folder for it and just install the PBR F-4, but that might miss out some CV-43 functionality. Alex may be around and may comment.
    Yes, that's my point. Forget the PBR for now, since we know that sets you up for a problem with CEV, and CEV must work correctly for anything to work with their carriers. Start with a clean install of the legacy F-4. Full stop. Then check

    1) do their F-4s work correctly?
    2) does the F-8 appear correctly in the CEV? Are their AoA, hook, and cat settings there? If it's not listed there, it won't work. You could dick around and add it manually, but at this point why bother? They've made 2x config files specifically to enable the F-8 to work, so make sure those are added in, and you should see the RFN F-8 in the CEV list of planes under P3D.

    My suggestion is to keep things as close to their default arrangement as possible and confirm it works. Then mess with different file locations and changes. Otherwise, you'll chase your tail and you won't be able to help them diagnose.

  20. #20
    Yes, that's my point. Forget the PBR for now, since we know that sets you up for a problem with CEV, and CEV must work correctly for anything to work with their carriers. Start with a clean install of the legacy F-4. Full stop. Then check

    1) do their F-4s work correctly?
    2) does the F-8 appear correctly in the CEV? Are their AoA, hook, and cat settings there? If it's not listed there, it won't work. You could dick around and add it manually, but at this point why bother? They've made 2x config files specifically to enable the F-8 to work, so make sure those are added in, and you should see the RFN F-8 in the CEV list of planes under P3D.

    My suggestion is to keep things as close to their default arrangement as possible and confirm it works. Then mess with different file locations and changes. Otherwise, you'll chase your tail and you won't be able to help them diagnose.
    Followed your helpful instructions to the letter.


    1. Opened CEX and relevant carrier a/c boxes ticked on all except RFN F-8. Ticked box for F-8 and saved changes + closed app.
    2. Used Fleet placement tool + warped F-4 from airport to deck
    3. No bridles for the legacy F-4 on CV-43 1965
    4. No bridles for AS A-4 or AS F-4
    5. No bridles for legacy F-4, AS A-4 or F-4 on freeware carriers using AICarriers2 while in the same game having used the Fleet placer tool.
    6. Did not bother testing the RFN F-8 as I found the above quite dispiriting - LOL!
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  21. #21
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Followed your helpful instructions to the letter.


    1. Opened CEX and relevant carrier a/c boxes ticked on all except RFN F-8. Ticked box for F-8 and saved changes + closed app.
    2. Used Fleet placement tool + warped F-4 from airport to deck
    3. No bridles for the legacy F-4 on CV-43 1965
    4. No bridles for AS A-4 or AS F-4
    5. No bridles for legacy F-4, AS A-4 or F-4 on freeware carriers using AICarriers2 while in the same game having used the Fleet placer tool.
    6. Did not bother testing the RFN F-8 as I found the above quite dispiriting - LOL!
    Yeah, I don't get any bridles on anything on SWS boats (I'll have to double-check, I haven't flown their PBR F-4 in a couple weeks, so possibly none on that one either - have been testing/juggling too many balls and I'm not on my sim at the moment).

    I'd be curious to see

    1) new game session, go to AIC2 formation and see if all your non SWS stuff works correctly, and then
    2) close out AIC2, launch Fleets, and spawn at location / slew on deck. Do the SWS F-4s work? I mean, I know they don't have bridles, but can you launch and trap? Then try the F-8.

    That way we can determine what part of this is buggered and how badly.

    Also post up the settings in your CEV entry for the RFN F-8. Their settings aren't in my view, perfect, and I often get what I believe are unncessary waveoffs, but they're close enough that I at least can trap aboard and then launch.

  22. #22
    I'd be curious to see

    1) new game session, go to AIC2 formation and see if all your non SWS stuff works correctly, and then
    2) close out AIC2, launch Fleets, and spawn at location / slew on deck. Do the SWS F-4s work? I mean, I know they don't have bridles, but can you launch and trap? Then try the F-8.
    1) all non SWS stuff working correctly with AIC2 in new game sessions;
    2) SWS legacy F-4 will not hook up, no JBD's and will not launch. Tried AS A-4 to come aboard twice and would not catch wires on CV-43 1965. ALSO: afterwards, AIC2 no longer worked on other non SWS carriers with any aircraft.

    expat out
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  23. #23
    Gents, to clarify again:
    • Our carriers will only work when spawned with SWS Fleets. The reason is technical: the cables and other features will not work if spawned with the AIC/TacPack because we have no way of knowing where the carrier is and by extension, the cables and catapults.
    • There is indeed a glitch that breaks the cats/cables even when spawned with SWS Fleet. While it affects a small fraction of the customers, it can really be annoying. It was a sleeper bug that pre-existed but was brought to light after the latest Windows updates, earlier this year. We think we have narrowed it down.


    Regarding aircraft:
    • Bridles appear because the aircraft author has made them appear when the default catapult is engaged. We are using our own catapults and circumvent the default one. Therefore, because the aircraft doesn't really know what an SWS catapult is, the bridle won't appear, even if our code forces the aircraft down the catapult.
    • The RFN Crusader is a peculiar case. We discovered why it doesn't work last night and it will be addressed in the forthcoming update to our carriers. The technical explanation is that the RFN crusader has no catapult/hook entries in the CFG nor presets for our system, so we cannot detect where it attaches to the catapults. A temporary solution is to activate the launch assistance and tailhook entries that Sylvain has in the aircraft.cfg.


    For buyers of the old Phantom/Coral Sea combo: we recommend to install on top of the old Phantom without uninstalling it, because it makes things simpler.

    If you want a perfectly clean, albeit manual solution, delete SWS_F-4B_Phantom_II from your add-ons folder and install the PBR Phantom. Do not uninstall or delete SWS_Carriers_Extended and SWS_Midway_Battlegroup.

    I hope that helps.

    SimWorks Studios

    Alex Vletsas

    3D Modeler & Animator
    http://www.simworksstudios.com
    http://www.facebook.com/SimWorksStudios

  24. #24
    Yes, thanks Alex.

    Further findings:


    • Whether or not there is a a visable shuttle, I have no cat/trap functions on the CV-43 using Fleets.


    • We also have a bit of an inter-operability issue. While in the same session initialily using Fleets testing the Coral Sea, I then switched to AIC2. It did not function - cats/traps disabled on non SWS carriers - until I exited AIC2 and relaunched it (no big deal) but then when I later tried to delete the formation it crashed the whole P3D session - that's a problem. There are always some bugs to work out within simming software - often tha's part of the hobby - but it's another thing when one programme conflicts with and disables another. We should try to find the conflict with AIC2 as many of us will wish to use it within the same game session interchangably with Fleets. (I would use Fleets more if I could find out how to set up parking spots on other carriers).
    Striker, listen, and you listen close: flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle, just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

  25. #25
    Charter Member 2015 delta_lima's Avatar
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    Alex,

    No one's trying to spawn SWS carriers in AIC2 - not sure what point that's trying to address. Good suggestion on the installation instructions, though.

    I went in and took another good look at the SWS boats and F-4s - as stated earlier they work "ok" * for me, except I have the same issue of once I start a Fleets formation, I can forget about going and starting an AIC2 formation in the same sim session. Meh - annoying, but I could live with it. I'm willing to cut some slack on inter-product interop to an extent, although it'd be ideal if this got fixed. But let's set aside AIC2 and non SWS models for a minute.

    I said earlier worked "ok". Let's look at some basics. On a completely clean/latest version of SWS F-4 on either the SWS Coral Sea or Midway (yes, using Fleets), latching the onto the cat pushes the plane down into the the deck a good foot or more - the nose and main wheels virtually disappear below the surface. That's got zero to do with other devs' programs or models.

    I'll start a ticket and whatnot, but am curious if I'm the only one who, apart from poor expat who can't get anything to work - have things more-or-less working, but are having issues that are 100% within the SWS IP. I suspect I'm not alone.

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