Admins - please could you delete my account

[thefrog]

This has been the first site I visit each day for many years now and although I have not made many posts I have found it to be the best flight sim forum. As a result of a politely reasoned critical comment I made on a thread concerning a developer's aircraft, the thread was locked. If any sort of criticism is not allowed, then this is not the site for me.
Many thanks
Dave

[falcon409]

This has been the first site I visit each day for many years now and although I have not made many posts I have found it to be the best flight sim forum. As a result of a politely reasoned critical comment I made on a thread concerning a developer's aircraft, the thread was locked. If any sort of criticism is not allowed, then this is not the site for me.
Many thanks
Dave
"Frog" I wouldn't take too much credit for the thread being closed. As a matter of fact, I doubt anything you had to say was "The" reason for Tom closing the conversation. Instead it was the direction the responses were taking. Too often a simple statement begets a litany of negativity and bashing that's unnecessary and could continue ad infinitum as each person throws in their 2cents. It rarely ends in hugs and handshakes. Baz gave his response. . .that's where it ends.

Having the Admins close your account. . .a bit too dramatic. Stick around, calm down and enjoy the forum.

[flaviossa]

Not trying to push things, but recently a similar thing happened to me. I just pointed some minor issues with a freeware plane (In a very polite way) and i was accused of discourtesy behavior, that it was FREE so i can´t say nothing, etc, etc... Well, this kind of situation come to my mind allways i want to post something and in most cases i give up post anything. It is really not an encouraging situation.

Anyway, don´t give up. SOH is a very nice place endeed and i love come here and see nice topics. You just have to learn where you´re welcome to participate and where not. :encouragement:

[Stefano Zibell]

Humans...

So emotional.

[Firekitten]

rip sanity

[davido53]

I got banned from simhq and get this...the guy who got me banned is a police officer, like myself. He took a dislike to me because I disagreed with a tactical decision in a theoretical discussion.

Cops are supposed to stick together, but sometimes ego takes precedence.

[DaveSHQ]

David
The Admin at SimHq is no longer Admin so feel free to rejoin

Stormtrooper @ SimHQ

[fsxar177]

Hope you stick around ..

The moderators here are certainly trigger happy .. But, it's their forum. So.. ?

I, for one, appreciate the constructive posts, such as yours. Thank-you.

- Joseph

[Daveroo]

This has been the first site I visit each day for many years now and although I have not made many posts I have found it to be the best flight sim forum. As a result of a politely reasoned critical comment I made on a thread concerning a developer's aircraft, the thread was locked. If any sort of criticism is not allowed, then this is not the site for me.
Many thanks
Dave

i dont know the thread thats being talked about,but frog,there is no need to quit...when a thread is closed,its normally not an individual ...its a group ....but creative criticism is usually liked by all...but not always by the developer,they do have feelings..and i can understand someone getting upset over over complaints of freeware,but commercial addons ,with many people working,and being paid when a plane is bought...well they should be allowed to comment too,but they should talk about the complaint with the core group of the "company" ,not yell at or belittle a customer.

[stovall]

The thread was closed for exactly the reason mentioned, "Looks like this thread has played out its usefulness." There is an original thread about the Electra, "JF Lockheed Electra released!" Comments and suggestions about the JF Electra can be added there.

[donnybalonny]

The frog I completely understand your way of thinking.

I started that thread because I was unsure of the nav instruments and it seems with good reason because they dont work!

There was no bashing of the AC, critisism was reasoned and not harsh. But what always happened with this develloper is that he is allowed to enter the discussions and say the usual stuff "we are making a patch, contact Justflight and the AC was cheap".
Come on, Justfligt has been contacted and a patch has just been made without adressing of many the issues been reported.

Thats why we still discuss that aircraft a month after its release. So please dont close threads which are trying to resolve things not resolved by the develloper. Forums should be for that.

[donnybalonny]

Baz gave his response. . .that's where it ends.

.

Exactly, and thats what is pathetic on a forum like this one. I think Aeroplane Heaven should make their own forum and stop controlling posts about their products here.
That way, we could have some decent discussions of their products and there´s a better chance they wont end like they have done here lately.

[bazzar]

Exactly how are we controlling posts? Man, you are like a dog with a bone. What part of "there will be an SP released" do you not understand?

[roger-wilco-66]

Donny, et al,

I think there are a lot of participants in this forum who appreciate that some developers are active here and we have seen many great projects or aspects of development evolve from that kind of co-operation over the years. Personally, I would hate to see that dwindle away further because a few participants use this platform for rants or mud slinging. To me it is OK to point out a potential error in a release here, however, when it is clear that it is an error (by comparison with the experiences of other users) and the dev even calls out a fix, it's got to stop.
I'm getting the impression that some people have a greater interest in letting off some short fused steam than in participating professionally or like an adult in solving a problem (responsibility, respect, fairness, honesty - project managers or others may know that code of work ethics) . I also think questioning or ranting about a developers business concept is highly inappropriate and totally off topic here. Go write him an email or PM if you think you need to give him a consulting session, and if you don't like the answer, don't do business with him. Why bother, nobody forces you to do otherwise.

But maybe all that is much easier than in my utterings above. I think to re-read what one is about to let off to the public and think about the consequences or how it might be perceived by others could make one think twice and reflect a little bit before hitting the "submit reply/post" button. I've done that three times with this post alone!


Mark

[CODY]

Donny, et al,

I think there are a lot of participants in this forum who appreciate that some developers are active here and we have seen many great projects or aspects of development evolve from that kind of co-operation over the years. Personally, I would hate to see that dwindle away further because a few participants use this platform for rants or mud slinging. To me it is OK to point out a potential error in a release here, however, when it is clear that it is an error (by comparison with the experiences of other users) and the dev even calls out a fix, it's got to stop.
I'm getting the impression that some people have a greater interest in letting off some short fused steam than in participating professionally or like an adult in solving a problem (responsibility, respect, fairness, honesty - project managers or others may know that code of work ethics) . I also think questioning or ranting about a developers business concept is highly inappropriate and totally off topic here. Go write him an email or PM if you think you need to give him a consulting session, and if you don't like the answer, don't do business with him. Why bother, nobody forces you to do otherwise.

But maybe all that is much easier than in my utterings above. I think to re-read what one is about to let off to the public and think about the consequences or how it might be perceived by others could make one think twice and reflect a little bit before hitting the "submit reply/post" button. I've done that three times with this post alone!


Mark

X2 Well said...

[ColoKent]

Frog, I wouldn't quit, because I don't believe it is a matter of SOH limiting what people are allowed to say.

On the other hand, I've come to realize over the years that in some cases (certainly not all) payware developers can appear to be tone deaf regarding criticism or mention of problems with their products on public forums. As a result, I try to avoid airing payware problems anymore in that medium, and many times when I've seen a thread closed, it was one concerning a product where the developer and users were going back and forth.

These days, I view payware products much like freeware products: WYSIWYG. If I have an issue with payware, I try to go to the developer via PM, and it appears to be more effective-- I've had more success taking that route than commenting on public forums

just my .02 cents.

Kent

[Firekitten]

Seriously? Are you lot grown men?


RE BLOODY LAX. This is a game, you're reading things that honestly aren't meant. Aeroplane heaven Said they're working on it... so let them.

you do realize, when developing an aircraft, that you discover bugs, and or get them reported, and work on a patch,and shock horror, more might come up... or no logical solution to a bug is there right away... there can be... dun dun dun... more than one patch.

The more advanced we become with models, because YOU demand it, the more issues and bugs can occur as we break the sim more extensively.

Now put your big boy pants on, put your egos back, and start acting like grown ups rather than 'he said she said' bickering.


Criticism, is welcomed by developers, as long as its constructive...

Got a fault? describe it, explain context and situation, help them to recreate it!

In that respect though, the forum 'nice people' do get a little jumpy whenever people do apply that constructive criticism. That also has to stop, its irritating.

can we please go back to toy airplanes?

[KellyB]

Seriously? Are you lot grown men?


RE BLOODY LAX. This is a game, you're reading things that honestly aren't meant. Aeroplane heaven Said they're working on it... so let them.

you do realize, when developing an aircraft, that you discover bugs, and or get them reported, and work on a patch,and shock horror, more might come up... or no logical solution to a bug is there right away... there can be... dun dun dun... more than one patch.

The more advanced we become with models, because YOU demand it, the more issues and bugs can occur as we break the sim more extensively.

Now put your big boy pants on, put your egos back, and start acting like grown ups rather than 'he said she said' bickering.


Criticism, is welcomed by developers, as long as its constructive...

Got a fault? describe it, explain context and situation, help them to recreate it!

In that respect though, the forum 'nice people' do get a little jumpy whenever people do apply that constructive criticism. That also has to stop, its irritating.

can we please go back to toy airplanes?


Hear Hear!

[IanHenry]

Frog, if you want to quit, that's your prerogative, although, if I was going to leave, I'd just stop coming, not make a grand announcement, and going out with a great fanfare. Up to you mate go or stay, I'm sure you'll be most welcome.

Regarding your reason for leaving, I haven't been following the thread, but I'm pretty sure if Aeroplane Heaven & JustFlight have said there will be a fix, there will be a fix, both company's always provide faultless after sales service.

Personally (and this is not a dig at yourself) I think it's pretty bad form when people come on the forum and start a public assignation of a developers products, often with the sole intention of denying developers sales, that's just not on.

Regards,
Ian

[hairyspin]

If I don't like somewhere on the net I stop going. No fanfare needed, no-one cares two straws. Maybe I look at it again in time and things have changed, maybe the tanks have rolled down the streets since, who knows. Life goes on.

[jmbiii]

After reading through this thread, I got to Firekitten's response. I could hardly finish reading it for the tears of laughter in my eyes.

She's right ! (as off I go to look for my blanket and pacifier) :biggrin-new:

[Bill Kestell]

I have found that if I have an issue with someone's work product:
1. Do your communicating via PM's. What is the point of airing complaints in public?
2. Attitude is 99.9% of the equation.
a. Do you just want to rant.
b. Do you want help resolving a problem.

Just as Mom always said: "Nothing good happens after midnight", I'd add: "Nothing good happens when you go looking for a fight."

Reasonable people can have differing viewpoints, but the operative word must always be REASONABLE.

[delta_lima]

Exactly, and thats what is pathetic on a forum like this one. I think Aeroplane Heaven should make their own forum and stop controlling posts about their products here.


Pathetic, you say?

You mean like starting a thread with no purpose but to draw more drama attention to an issue - already addressed in another thread? Have I got that right?

This will help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2WzQzxuoA

You'll thank me later.

[WarHorse47]

I totally agree with Firekitten's comments. Before we get too far ahead on this subject, there is one thing I'd like to add.

I often use the forums to verify an issue I may encounter with a product. It is not meant as criticism by any means, but rather to determine if I screwed up somewhere on the install or perhaps there may be something weird with my setup that is generating the issue.

Aside from posting on SOH, I also start searching the developer's forum or other dedicated forums. Often I learn that others have the same observation, or that a patch is in the works.

If the issue is unique to my install, then I proceed to contact the developer directly - such as creating a support ticket or sending an e-mail. If there is no response after a reasonable period of time, then it's back to the forums to see if someone else might have a solution.

[n4gix]

This will help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2WzQzxuoA

You'll thank me later.
Thank you! That was hilarious, but nonetheless on point.

"Here's a cup. Here's a lid. Now, shut the cup up!" :biggrin-new:

[Tako_Kichi]

Thank you! That was hilarious, but nonetheless on point.

"Here's a cup. Here's a lid. Now, shut the cup up!" :biggrin-new:
If you liked that Bill make sure you check out Part 2, it's even funnier!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cl7TY92rd4

[Naismith]

[QUOTE=Firekitten;985796]Seriously? Are you lot grown men?
QUOTE]
See chaps, the female cuts to the chase. This is why I hope Hilary gets elected.
No? Bring it on....... :biggrin-new:

[txnetcop]

Hey delta_lima THANKS sent this to my poor children in college who are struggling with identity problems!
https://youtu.be/vN2WzQzxuoA

[TuFun]

[QUOTE=Firekitten;985796]Seriously? Are you lot grown men?
QUOTE]
See chaps, the female cuts to the chase. This is why I hope Hilary gets elected.
No? Bring it on....... :biggrin-new:


According to Douglas James Cottrell, she will be the next president.

[SSI01]

Had a similar incident occur in the recent past when a developer who has always turned out excellent freeware aircraft turned out an updated model of an older aircraft. I installed in exact accordance with instructions and the inst. panel was half-inop. We had an exchange of polite emails and the issue was resolved when the developer realized he had sent out an older .cab file that had the same name as a newer .cab file, it was just an older file with the right name that was incompatible with the balance of the release. He felt so bad after he realized his error, which told me a lot about him in that he is proud of his work and wants it to bring enjoyment to people, not frustration. Those of us who utterly and completely lack the skills our developers, panel and texture artists, and .air file writers have in abundance have a great deal to be thankful to them for.

[SeanTK]

This thread's probably nearing the end of it's usefulness...but while it's open, I want to say...keep your account!

All of the flightsim communities are worth sticking around in just for the help that they provide. I've had an abundance of fantastic assistance with obscure FS issues here at SOH, I have enjoyed collaborating with others, and I have received some amazing repaints (that I use every day) from some talented people here who aren't confident enough to release to the wider community.

SOH also has its fair share of short tempered characters that seem to be strangely tolerated, seemingly because they are a bit more active than others or have certain professional histories. You also have the lapdogs that don't hesitate to jump into any bug-report thread only say how they tolerate all of the bugs and how amazingly awesome addon x is.

The good outweighs the bad though!

FS developers usually work like this (not naming any specific names)...

Developer A thinks they're doing everyone a favor by only charging +$80 since it's a "bargain" as the real deal costs $X to manufacture and fly.
Developer B thinks they can permit more errors because they're only charging less than X amount, thereby doing the community a favor.
Sometimes you'll have a Developer C who is middle of the road and just wants to contribute - and is open to further improvements and criticism without being overbearing on price or hesitant to add more detail.

I've had my fair share of successes and failures with reporting bugs to big and small teams. Some devs have been extremely appreciative and responsive even when I point out something that I think could be a bit nitpicky. Others have not hesitated to tell me to "#### off" and tell me that I should be glad that they developed anything in the first place.

So...keep your account, because it takes all types to keep this community going, and you will encounter all types here. AH seemed responsive to the report of additional bugs, and while I think this speaks to a wider issue of incompetent alpha and beta testers across the community who only want early access to an addon, that's a different discussion (that would likely get locked). :)

So....separate yourself from the community for a bit - I know I have in the past due to some persistently "colorful" characters here and elsewhere, but keep your account, as most of the larger populace is helpful (or at least tries), and the good outweighs the grumps, the entitled users and entitled developers, and the bureaucracy of any forum.

[DaveB]

Nicely put Sean:encouragement:

ATB
DaveB:)

[thefrog]

Well I should have known better than to start a thread at gone 3 in the morning! And to fire it off without a second thought is very unlike me. That's what insomnia does to you.... I should have sent a PM to the admins instead of starting a thread in public, but then I'm partly glad I didn't because it has actually been an interesting and heartening thread to read and as a result of that and the PM's I've received, I'm looking forward to continuing my membership of the best flight sim forum there is.
Regards
Dave

[stovall]

Glad you made that decision Dave. Looks like this story has a happy ending. :encouragement: