An interesting proposition for those interested

[grover1]

Hi all,

I'm looking for someone who's able to help out with some skinning on aircraft. What I'm trying to do for BoB is have multiple skins for each squadron.

Basically, I would love to make it so each aircraft code for every squadron is represented. As an example, I'll use No.303 "Kościuszko" Squadron.

The CFS3 default No.303 Hurricane is Hurricane RF-F, but my idea is to have ALL Squadron codes for No.303 Squadron represented. Like RF-C, RF-L, RF-A, and so on.

Note that I'm just using No.303 Squadron as an example. The ultimate goal with this would be to have every RAF squadron have their individual aircraft coded properly.

The problem that I've got is I've got no experience with Gimp or any other DDS, so I would need someone to share some RAF letter decals with me.

If anyone is interested in doing this with me, that would be so appreciated! If not, I'll do my best to make this happen!

In the future, I plan on doing this with Luftwaffe aircraft. Just need to find some books on painting Luftwaffe aircraft.

I hope there's anyone interested in doing this with me!

Chris

[gecko]

How do you plan on implementing that many skins? Perhaps there is a way to load entire skins into a .mos file the same way individual letters are done for the stock planes. Then a single standalone aircraft could fill out an entire squadron as the individual skins are applied randomly across the aircraft of a flight.

[grover1]

Hi Daniel,

I have a few options in mind:
1) Would be to create individual AI versions of each individual aircraft. The only problem with that is the package would be absolutely massive.

2) I thought about having multiple skins per aircraft.cfg file similar to the way FSX has their multiple skins set up.
Again, I don't know if multiple skins can be shared by one .cfg file. But the problem with that is I don't know if each aircraft would need its own .xdp file. Right now, this seems the most realistic, but I don't really know as of this point.

3) Would be to create a .mos as you suggested above and try and find a way to apply all codes to individual aircraft. Again, the trouble is finding out how to apply one .mos
file to an individual aircraft

I know this project is a big undertaking, but I'm sure it can be done with all that we've accomplished with CFS3 over the last few years. I know the WOFF guys managed to do its with any luck we can do it too! I'll try and get in touch with them and see what they say.

Best wishes,

Chris

[gecko]

1) Yes, that would huge. Probably prohibitively so, seeing that we're talking about literally thousands of aircraft.

2) I don't believe CFS3 will allow that.

3) It's not been done before, but it seems possible. The idea I had was to have a blank skin as the main texture, and using the same method used to add individual letters to stock aircraft, load the entire skin as if it were a single letter. It should only require a quick edit with the .mos editor and then naming the individual skins appropriately.

WOFF did it by creating 10 or so standalones of each aircraft. They have thousands of skins which the external WOFF manager swaps in and out before each mission as required by the mission it set up.

[grover1]

I was also thinking of approaching it the same way the AI Hurricanes and Spitfires are set up in ETO and BoB.

The only thing is I have absolutely no experience in editing .MOS files and using a .MOS editor.

So, I'd have to get in touch with someone who does have experience in dealing with .MOS files.

UPDATE: I just tried using one .M3D file for multiple skins, and it worked!

We're in luck, it is very likely we will have individually coded aircraft in the near future!

For 12 aircraft per squadron, I'm averaging a file size of approximately 4MB. I'm gonna see if I can compress that down to about half that

[HouseHobbit]

I was also thinking of approaching it the same way the AI Hurricanes and Spitfires are set up in ETO and BoB.

The only thing is I have absolutely no experience in editing .MOS files and using a .MOS editor.

So, I'd have to get in touch with someone who does have experience in dealing with .MOS files.

UPDATE: I just tried using one .M3D file for multiple skins, and it worked!

We're in luck, it is very likely we will have individually coded aircraft in the near future!

For 12 aircraft per squadron, I'm averaging a file size of approximately 4MB. I'm gonna see if I can compress that down to about half that

Yes, it can be done that way, WOFF and others have shown this.. example; the Me 163 being developed right now has several skins available, using a similar method
When you get this sorted send the files to me and I can test them for you.
BRAVO!!

[grover1]

Hi Owen,

I've already started on this project already! If you're interested in helping out, send me a PM when you get the chance.

I just need someone who has experience with repainting aircraft to give me a hand in getting started with the adjusting the squadron and aircraft codes.

That's the biggest hurdle right now. If anyone has any RAF decals such as roundels or aircraft code letters around, please send them my way!

Like I said, I have no experience in repainting aircraft, so that's my biggest hurdle right now.

Again, this is solely for my BoB missions, but maybe in future series I put together, I may do this again.

Best wishes,

Chris

[Daiwilletti]

Hi Chris,

You are starting on a great sounding venture.

Once spawn files are prepared so that whole squadrons can show up in a formation, the next step is to get the squadrons showing up at the right airfields. I have been wanting to experiment with this for a while never found the time. But the idea is to heavily revise the country.xml file, so that 11 FG, 10 FG etc for the BoB era are set up as countries. Then in the global layer historically accurate ownership of airfields to 11 Group 10 Group etc can be assigned (Column O of the global layer.csv). In much the same way as USAAF and British owners are assigned in the ETO for their own airfields in the Global layer.

It would allow a new unlimited pilots.xml with historically accurate sets of names for each RAF group however firstnames and surnames would still get doled out randomly but every now and again you would get one right! The approach I am talking about allows for campaigns with better representation of aircraft in squadrons for BoB era aerial warfare. Your creation of AI aircraft with individual lettering is a great thing to get the ball rolling.

Remember Ndicki did a whole lot of AI skins with the same name which had to be put in separate subfolders to the aircraft folder concerned. Which in theory allowed for random apprearance of different markings for the same aircraft. However IIRC once a skin had spawned once it tended to repeat again until the bdp file was deleted. Also the same skin spawned for all aircraft in the spawn unit, it did not distribute different skins sadly. Your approach of totally separate AI aircraft would work better. They could still be in one a/c folder and use only one cfg file (like the Ju88 and possibly IIRC the mossie).

cheers,
D

[grover1]

Hi Chris,

You are starting on a great sounding venture.

Once spawn files are prepared so that whole squadrons can show up in a formation, the next step is to get the squadrons showing up at the right airfields. I have been wanting to experiment with this for a while never found the time. But the idea is to heavily revise the country.xml file, so that 11 FG, 10 FG etc for the BoB era are set up as countries. Then in the global layer historically accurate ownership of airfields to 11 Group 10 Group etc can be assigned (Column O of the global layer.csv). In much the same way as USAAF and British owners are assigned in the ETO for their own airfields in the Global layer.

It would allow a new unlimited pilots.xml with historically accurate sets of names for each RAF group however firstnames and surnames would still get doled out randomly but every now and again you would get one right! The approach I am talking about allows for campaigns with better representation of aircraft in squadrons for BoB era aerial warfare. Your creation of AI aircraft with individual lettering is a great thing to get the ball rolling.

Remember Ndicki did a whole lot of AI skins with the same name which had to be put in separate subfolders to the aircraft folder concerned. Which in theory allowed for random apprearance of different markings for the same aircraft. However IIRC once a skin had spawned once it tended to repeat again until the bdp file was deleted. Also the same skin spawned for all aircraft in the spawn unit, it did not distribute different skins sadly. Your approach of totally separate AI aircraft would work better. They could still be in one a/c folder and use only one cfg file (like the Ju88 and possibly IIRC the mossie).

cheers,
D

Hi D,

If you know where ndicki's skins for RAF fighter squadrons are, that'd be great! Not only would that save me lots of time in putting this together, it would also save me the hassle of having to individually repaint hundreds, if not thousands of aircraft. I know that there's a whole bunch of AI Spitfires and Hurricanes in ETO so that's where my starting point is from. If you know of Defiants and Blenheims, that'd be great and most appreciated!

I did a test run earlier today using several Hurricane skins from No.303 Polish Squadron and I got vet promising results. The only problem, however, is I have to assign a model file for each individual skin. I'm still snooping around for a way to use one model file for twelve skins. In theory its possible, but I'm not certain on how to implement that. I tried it earlier with one model file for three skins and that was promising. Again, the problem is using one .M3D file for twelve skins. If I can find a way around that, then this project could very easily see kight of day. But from what I've seen, using individual AI aircraft makes the most sense right now. May be a massive file, but worth it in the long term for realism and immersion.

Now, with regarding spawning at airfields, I already found a work-around that. I'm going to use spawn files instead of modifying the country.xml. I do like your idea of having historically accurate names and I've already found a work-around, again using spawns. I tried the name aircraft feature in the MB and didn't get any results.

If you could send me Nigel's skins, or if Nigel still pops around here, that'd be really appreciated!

Thanks again,

Chris

[Pat Pattle]

That's a very ambitious plan Chris! I did toy with the idea myself at one time but didn't fancy all the time involved.:dizzy:

Off the top of my head I think you would need:

1) One plain camo texture minus markings would cover all squadrons (or 2 to be more correct to have the A and B camo schemes represented).
2) One m3d for each squadron (or 2 if you had the A and B schemes)
3) One .mos file (or 2 if you had the A and B schemes) for each squadron with a set of layers with markings for each of the 12 aircraft.

There are downloadable fonts around for the lettering (although this does vary squadron to squadron) and for the roundels and tail markings too.

There were some on the GC site which Mitch now manages but I don't think they have the correct period ones for BoB:

http://www.mrjmaint.com/RegsHanger/Groundcrew/homepage/Garage/Decals/Wings%20and%20Coffee%20Decals.php


In BoB2 they achieved this very idea with the 'Multiskin' package. Luckily for them there is only 1 3d model covering all squadrons.


I don't have any time to help with this but do have a lot of BoB books if you need any info.

Good luck!

Clive

[flashgordon]

Great idea.

If it helps some years ago I did the attached Spitfire and Hurricane BoB database.

[grover1]

Great idea.

If it helps some years ago I did the attached Spitfire and Hurricane BoB database.

That's a great resource! That'll save me lots of time in research. Because the RAF only launched twelve planes at a time, what I'm going to do is pick twelve Hurricane and Spitfires then randomly assign a code. That way it'll save me time.

Does anyone have a blank texture for a Hurricane and Spitfires on their hard drive? I could use one to learn how to use Photoshop/Paintshop/Gimp. The other thing I need to know is if textures are layered? Like is the camouflage pattern applied than the code and serial applied over top the base pattern? If that's the case, than all I'll have to do is cut out the letters and code than apply correct lettering and codes to the aircraft fuselage.

UPDATE: I read the database that Flashgordon posted above, and this project is very realistic. I will, however, need to know who the authors of the 3GB Hurricane, Reg's Hanger Hurricane, and the Spitfire Mk.I and II in ETO 1.50 and BoB. Unfortunately, Luftwaffe aircraft are not likely right now due to the lack of data available for individual aircraft. Once I have the authors for those aircraft, I can work on the Defiant and Blenheim in the future. But, again, I can only skin aircraft that are readily available.

I will attach a screenshot a little later tonight of some of our work on this

[grover1]

Hi all,

I have good news and bad news.

First I'll start with the good news: AI flights can have multiple skins, essentially the skin doesn't repeat its self for every other aircraft in that flight.

The bad news is: player flights can't have multiple skins. I'm trying to find a work-around, but so far haven't found anything.

That's the next major hurdle to overcome before this project can truly see light of day.

I've tried manually entering ai aircraft in the player formation, but unfortunately, the ai aircraft still have the player's aircraft skin.

Chances are there is a fix, but it's a matter of finding out how. Perhaps one of you have a solution?

Best wishes,

Chris

[Blood_Hawk23]

Are you able to hand edit the players flight like you can in CFS2?

[grover1]

You can, but the problem is that the player flight still calls upon the exact same skin as the players aircraft.

That's the problem right there. Which is getting around that

[grover1]

Defiants on patrol near Folkestone.

A very early screenshot of the multiskin package! These are the Defiants Clive sent me, but this is to give everyone an idea of what's coming.

Just working on some more skins now