Can a Mallard float?

[Mick]

Has anyone come up with a set of contact points that will allow Gary Davis' FS2002 Grumman G-73 Mallard to float on water in FS9?

It seems that it should be a matter of contact points but I fiddled in vain trying to add float points. But I'm strictly a dilettante when it comes to contact points, so I hope someone who knows more than me has worked it out.

[Dev One]

Try turning crash off & see if that helps.
Keith

[expat]

No, don't think that will help - see below. Would die for a new Mallard for FSX.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?41776-Waterfowl-won-t-float

[hertzie]

Does anybody know a site where I can download Gary Davies' Mallard?

Thanks,

hertzie

[Mick]

Try turning crash off & see if that helps.
Keith

That won't change anything. It doesn't crash, it just sinks.

I thought a set of float points in the Contact Points section would make it float, but I couldn't make it work.

[Mick]

Does anybody know a site where I can download Gary Davies' Mallard?

Thanks,

hertzie

My copy came from Avsim. Alas, it's no longer there. An update is there, but not the original plane. It must have been lost in the Great Avsim Hack a few years ago. The update includes a new model with reflections enabled, one skin and the flight files, but no sounds or panels. Methinks that a Goose or Albatross panel and sounds would be acceptable substitutes.

The update for reflectivity is curious, as neither the original skin nor the one included with the update requires a reflective model. Anyway, grab it for the 3D model and the flight model, as well as the skin.

Then you could go to the Cal Classics site and download AI Aircraft File 7, which includes the Mallard as an AI plane, with several more paints for it. (Still no panel or sounds, an apparently simplified 3D model, and an AI-optimized flight model, but worth grabbing for the paints, which I don't think are available anywhere else.)

[Mick]

No, don't think that will help - see below. Would die for a new Mallard for FSX.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?41776-Waterfowl-won-t-float

Ah ha! I started that thread with the same question four years ago, before my hiatus from the hobby. I'd forgotten that I'd asked the question way back then, and that the answer was that it can't be done.

I guess the Mallard will have to remain a landplane.

What brought it to my attention again is that I'd setting up my FS9 installations and when I downloaded the latest Cal Classics AI packages, I saw that the Mallard is included.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

[expat]

I have never left the hobby but more than once embarrass myself googling a flightsim problem solution, finding someone asked the EXACT question a few years back, only then to see it was ME as the OP on the SOH boards!

[Andre19]

Does anybody know a site where I can download Gary Davies' Mallard?

Thanks,

hertzie

The Mallard can be found at http://www.tradewind.org/oldhangar/seabirds.html

Andre

[Tom Clayton]

The update for reflectivity is curious, as neither the original skin nor the one included with the update requires a reflective model.

If I remember right, FS2002 models didn't have Dynamic Shine, which is part of the model and not dependent on the alpha reflections in the paint. I suspect that's what was updated here.

[hertzie]

Thanks André!

I have an FS2002 Mallard by Rey Lopez and Gunther Kirschstein and though it crashed at the beginning I now have it full amphibian by replacinging most of the data of the aircraft.cfg with data of a Goose. But it has no VC.

hertzie

[Milton Shupe]

Ah ha! I started that thread with the same question four years ago, before my hiatus from the hobby. I'd forgotten that I'd asked the question way back then, and that the answer was that it can't be done.

I guess the Mallard will have to remain a landplane.

What brought it to my attention again is that I'd setting up my FS9 installations and when I downloaded the latest Cal Classics AI packages, I saw that the Mallard is included.

Thanks for jogging my memory.


If it can set on land, it can set on water. Send it to me and I will fix it.

[Mick]

Thanks Milton!

I'll send it to you as soon as you reply to my PM and tell me where to send it. I've already made up a condensed, e-mail friendly version with no sound set and just one skin, zipped up and ready to send.

I'm already glad that I forgot I'd posted the question back then.

[Milton Shupe]

Thanks Milton!

I'll send it to you as soon as you reply to my PM and tell me where to send it. I've already made up a condensed, e-mail friendly version with no sound set and just one skin, zipped up and ready to send.

I'm already glad that I forgot I'd posted the question back then.

Thanks; replied :-)

[Milton Shupe]

If it can set on land, it can set on water. Send it to me and I will fix it.

Well, I got it to set above the water, just not "in" the water.

The issue with this model is that the FS reference point (also know as the "water line", and may be at the CoG) is at the bottom of the hull/fuselage.

Anytime in FS if your plane/boat or any craft goes beneath the water line, you get an unavoidable FS crash.

So, folks, if you are going to build a boat or aircraft that floats, be sure you set the model in gmax or other tool so that the reference point is at the appropriate level, near the CoG or specified waterline on the aircraft.

So, for this model, she will sit above the water, but not "in" the water.

[Mick]

Well, I got it to set above the water, just not "in" the water.

The issue with this model is that the FS reference point (also know as the "water line", and may be at the CoG) is at the bottom of the hull/fuselage.

Anytime in FS if your plane/boat or any craft goes beneath the water line, you get an unavoidable FS crash.

So, folks, if you are going to build a boat or aircraft that floats, be sure you set the model in gmax or other tool so that the reference point is at the appropriate level, near the CoG or specified waterline on the aircraft.

So, for this model, she will sit above the water, but not "in" the water.

Oh, how very annoying!

So it really can't be made to float properly in FS9.

Thanks for your efforts Milton! I really appreciate it.

Mick

[expat]

It is a real shame. As a long time FSX-er, to me it is still a very good looking model. I was able to get it to work as an AI plane, runway landings only. It is the only Grumman amphib missing from FS (and the only one Jimmy Buffett has never owned!). A very elegant design. Bill Lyons started a Turbine G-73 that looked amazing in screenshots posted years ago but he sadly never released it before retiring from flight simming.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/31/8f/ea/318fea05593506d4aee9daaf38406b34.jpg

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/g73_edgroenendijk.jpg


http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/021/3/7/grumman_g73_mallard_viss_ver_by_lonewolfh-d37r1cw.jpg

[mrogers]

The reference point possibly can be moved into the proper position with ACM. (Aircraft Container Manager). I have ACM and have been able to shift FS reference points to their proper places which then balanced things properly.

I think it can be done with the Mallard too by shifting the reference point to the correct waterline level with ACM. It might be worth a try to see if this can work.

[Milton Shupe]

Oh, how very annoying!

So it really can't be made to float properly in FS9.

Thanks for your efforts Milton! I really appreciate it.

Mick

Mick, if someone knows how to change the FS ref point in the model file, we can probably make it work. I just do not know how to do that.

[Mick]

The reference point possibly can be moved into the proper position with ACM. (Aircraft Container Manager). I have ACM and have been able to shift FS reference points to their proper places which then balanced things properly.

I think it can be done with the Mallard too by shifting the reference point to the correct waterline level with ACM. It might be worth a try to see if this can work.

Try! Try!

I hope you can do it!

I know I'm not the only one who will be rooting for you!

[tbearflying]

I found these lines under Weight and Balance but I have been unable to float on water.

//-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
//reference_datum_position = 0.0, 0, 0 // (feet) distance from FlightSim Reference position: (1/4 chord, centerline, waterline)
//empty_weight_CG_position = 0.0, 0, 0 // (feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from specified datum
//--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you can adjust the reference with this.

[Shessi]

Suprising as it is, when the installer for the Mallard package is running, the background picture shows the Mallard 'skimming' along the water surface, making bow waves, yet the hull and floats are not in contact with the surface!!

Not wishing to be a party pooper, but I was thinking of ripping it, re-doing a few things including the reference point, but read the README and....'ALTERATIONS: You may alter any file that is part of this package for your own exclusive use but you can not make it available to any 3rd party without my permission in writing. I reserve the right to check the files and documentation and limit distribution of altered files as I see fit.'

Unfortunately the email address and site are dead and Gary Davies is not about..unless you know otherwise??

Funny as someone posted a request to contact Gary back in 2002, and no reply then.....prob the same issue!?

Soooooo.....

Shessi

[TARPSBird]

Soooooo.....
I think you should just go ahead and do it and make it available for download. Worst that can happen is Gary Davies suddenly comes out of the woodwork and demands you take down the modified Mallard, in which case you explain your good intentions, apologize for making the improvements to the plane and take it down. It's not like you're modifying a payware product or a recent freeware plane from an active designer, the plane is from FS2002. Just my two cents, Shessi.

[Mick]

I tend to agree. It started out as freeware and now it's abandonware. After much thought, I've decided that in my humble opinion, abandonware is up for grabs.

I'm just opining on that, but I know for sure that if I ever get so completely out of this hobby that I can't even be contacted, (not to mention if I should wind up dad) I wouldn't care what anyone did with my old freeware releases (of which there are many.)

The only time I got really annoyed at someone messing with one of my releases was when he didn't bother to try to contact me (he said he didn't try because he didn't know if the contact information in my ReadMe file was still good; I guess it never occurred to him to try it and find out. Then he released it on a site that I specifically stated in the ReadMe that none of my work must ever be uploaded to. I guess it was in response to that bit that he simply removed my name from the credits.

But I digress. Anyway, I think it's reasonable to treat the Mallard as abandonware.

Also, sharing between folks on a semi-private site like this isn't exactly like publishing to the world on a big download site like AvSim or FlightSim. And should that still be a bit much, it would be even more private to simply post the modified MDL file as an attachment to a post in this forum thread. Even less public, it might be shared among those involved in the thread via e-mail.

As has been mentioned, it's not like we'd be ripping off a payware publisher, or even messing around with someone's stuff who's still in the hobby.

As for it floating in the screen shot, remember that the plane is an FS2002 model and the screenie was taken in FS2002, where the Mallard does float. Water in FS2002 is completely different from water in FS9.

[Lane Street]

...treat the Mallard as abandonware


Abandonware is a product, typically software, ignored by its owner and manufacturer, and for which no product support is available. Although such software is usually still under copyright, the owner may not be tracking or enforcing copyright violations.

Just because the owner may not be tracking or enforcing copyright does not mean it ceases to exist.

cheers,
Lane

[Milton Shupe]

I found these lines under Weight and Balance but I have been unable to float on water.

//-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
//reference_datum_position = 0.0, 0, 0 // (feet) distance from FlightSim Reference position: (1/4 chord, centerline, waterline)
//empty_weight_CG_position = 0.0, 0, 0 // (feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from specified datum
//--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you can adjust the reference with this.

I tried it to no avail. The issue is the FS Reference built into the model, not the adjusted offsetting reference for purposes of setting other coordinates.

[Shessi]

I have a foot in both camps, 'abandonware' maybe no, but as reasoned, it's not extreme or for gain what we are suggesting, and would still be fully credited to Gary.

Having said that, should SOH be seen to directly contravene the authors express wishes...??? Or are we being too precious and correct about this?

Personally, I think if ACM can be used to alter the ref point, is minor, ripping and re-hashing the model may be over-stepping this.


Shessi

p.s Just seen Milton's post. I can't run ACM, so can't try it, but can ACM change the ref point and update the mdl, not the .cfg or airfile?

[Milton Shupe]

The reference point possibly can be moved into the proper position with ACM. (Aircraft Container Manager). I have ACM and have been able to shift FS reference points to their proper places which then balanced things properly.

I think it can be done with the Mallard too by shifting the reference point to the correct waterline level with ACM. It might be worth a try to see if this can work.

ACM simply allows you to change the two statements in the aircraft.cfg. That will not work unfortunately.

The modeled ref point can only be changed in the mdl file.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hey all

The reason this AC will not float is the landing gear. The model must have been made with the gear down. Tom Sanford (Tango_Romeo) explained it to me a few years back. IF the AC is modeled with gear up then it can rest in water. If its modeled gear down it will sink.

So as an AI plane it will always sink. As a player AC, if you put the gear up you will float. Are you able to follow me?

Now if the contact points are set right it should float. I've made wheeled aircraft float without too much trouble. Just have to follow the above rule. Some times you have to make the points wider or longer. You may also have to move up the scrape points. Set CoG to water line. ACM works very well for this. As it gives you the ability to see the model and the contact points.

See if any of that helps. It works for CFS2 and FS2002. So FS2004 should be the same.

Please let me know if it works.

Till Later,
John

[Blood_Hawk23]

Here is a sample of what I did for CFS2. I took the Sopwith Pup and made it so I could launch from the catapult of a battleship. Well the only way they could recover them before Aircraft carriers was for them to ditch. They had Flotation bags so they could recover them. Well this is my setup for it.


[contact_points]
static_pitch = 16.500
static_cg_height = 4.900
max_number_of_points = 13
point.0 = 1.000, -14.740, 0.000, -1.000, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.200, 100.000, 0.100, 2.500, 1.000, 2.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.1 = 1.000, 0.200, 2.270, -5.150, 1800.000, 2.000, 1.050, 0.000, 0.100, 2.500, 0.800, 2.000, 2.000, 3.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.2 = 1.000, 0.200, -2.270, -5.150, 1800.000, 1.000, 1.050, 0.000, 0.100, 2.500, 0.800, 2.000, 2.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.3 = 2.000, -0.950, -8.580, -3.300, 1500.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 5.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.4 = 2.000, -0.950, 8.580, -3.300, 1500.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 6.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.5 = 2.000, -14.000, 0.000, -0.700, 1500.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 9.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.6 = 2.000, 2.800, 0.000, -3.000, 1500.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 4.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.7 = 4.000, 4.200, 2.270, -4.500, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.250, 2.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000, 3.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.8 = 4.000, 4.200, -2.270, -4.500, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.250, 2.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.9 = 4.000, -8.200, 2.270, -2.300, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.250, 2.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000, 3.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.10 = 4.000, -8.200, -2.270, -2.300, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.250, 2.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.11 = 4.000, -12.000, 0.000, -1.200, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.250, 2.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.12 = 4.000, -15.000, 0.000, -0.300, 1800.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.250, 2.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000, 1.000, 0.000, 0.000

I had to give it retractable landing gear. Otherwise, as I stated earlier, it would sink.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Here is a question. If you takeoff from land and land on the water, does it float?

I have it in fs2002 but have not tried it yet. After looking at it in ACM, everything looks in order.

I wonder if you removed the gear contact points and left the floats if it would remain floating. If not then then that would confirm what Tango was telling me. Which means the model needs to be remade with the gear in the up postion. Now this would cause the reverse issue when trying to start on land.

Something to try... If you have a water way set as an airstrip you could try this. While loading the flight put the gear up. When the flight is loaded you should be floating.

Its all I can think of right now. I think I have a copy of my notes for amphibs and float planes. I'll look for them.

[Mick]

Remember that water is completely different in FS2002 and FS9. The Mallard definitely floats in FS2002, but "floating" isn't at all the same thing in the two sims. Milton explained why the Mallard won't float in FS9 (see his post above) and it has nothing to do with the landing gear or with the contact points.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Sorry, I was hoping it worked more like CFS2.

How does water work in FS2004? Is it like CFS2. CFS2 seems different to even FS2002. Just wondering.

Shessi or Milton,

Can this be SCASM edited? Or would it ruin everything.

In the mean time I've imported the model to Gmax. I wish MCX would keep the animations when it exports to a 3ds model. Animations are one part that I'm still not able to do very well.

[Milton Shupe]

Remember that water is completely different in FS2002 and FS9. The Mallard definitely floats in FS2002, but "floating" isn't at all the same thing in the two sims. Milton explained why the Mallard won't float in FS9 (see his post above) and it has nothing to do with the landing gear or with the contact points.

Proof of concept (and my original reasoning in the above post for why this will not float) regarding water in FS9.

I imported the model to gmax, changed the FS Reference up to the waterline so water would not touch it when floating.

I exported to FS9, adjusted the contact points to the new FS reference point, and she floats beautifully.

So, now we know and have proof of the issue. :-)

[Mick]

... I exported to FS9, adjusted the contact points to the new FS reference point, and she floats beautifully.

So, now we know and have proof of the issue. :-)

WOO-HOOOOOO !!!!! :applause:

[mrogers]

Great!
:encouragement:

[Milton Shupe]

Great!
:encouragement:

Just to be clear, although that test verified what the issue is, the model I imported is not usable. All animations, names, mapping for textures, part hierarchies, etc. is lost on the import. So, the only benefit here is knowing for certain the cause of the issue.

[Mick]

Just to be clear, although that test verified what the issue is, the model I imported is not usable. All animations, names, mapping for textures, part hierarchies, etc. is lost on the import. So, the only benefit here is knowing for certain the cause of the issue.

Awwwwww.... :confusion: