For our British military contingent...

[Rami]

Good afternoon,

A question for those familiar with the British military...

Someone told me once that the reason why a lieutenant is often spelled or referred to as a leftenant in the British military is that calling someone a "lieutenant" would cause other personnel to snicker, seeing as how British slang for a toilet (or so I'm told) is the "loo."

I've also heard that according to the British, it has been and always will be the proper pronunciation.

Is this in the ballpark, or has someone been blowing smoke up my skirt?

Thanks in advance,

[Naismith]

I'm thinking that the term "Loo" for toilet is relatively recent vernacular and would not have been a word used in e.g. the 17th century.

Check this out

http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-19576,00.html

[emfrat]

The RN says "lieu", the Army says "left" and the RAF follows suit, probably because it was originally the Royal Flying Corps of the Army.

The chattering classes say "loo" - which is just the French 'lieu' , meaning place - because going to the toilet is an unmentionable activity.

Here endeth the lesson :smug:

MikeW

[Roger]

"Loo" probably comes from "Gardez l'eau", borrowed from the French, when the contents of the upstairs chamber pot were to be thrown to the street below. Nasty business. :chuncky:

[Skyhawk_310R]

Good afternoon,

A question for those familiar with the British military...

Someone told me once that the reason why a lieutenant is often spelled or referred to as a leftenant in the British military is that calling someone a "lieutenant" would cause other personnel to snicker, seeing as how British slang for a toilet (or so I'm told) is the "loo."

I've also heard that according to the British, it has been and always will be the proper pronunciation.

Is this in the ballpark, or has someone been blowing smoke up my skirt?

Thanks in advance,


Well, one part of your question has a firm root in history. The rank and the term originated in France. There is no reasonable argument against that. The French got first dibs on the word and since they pronounced it with the "loo" form, then that's the origin. The British changed it and if some in Britain wish to claim otherwise then it simply diminishes them. So, in that respect, anyone who tried to tell you that the rank and word were always pronounced in the British Army fashion, then indeed they are "blowing smoke up your skirt!"

When and why the British Army changed it is far less agreed upon.

Of note, there is a sharp cultural difference between the RN and the RA in Great Britain over this pronunciation difference. This cultural difference has been somewhat extended westward in Canada as the RCN's official "Customs of the Navy" publication, written by Lieutenant Commander A.D. Taylor, has some rather sharp language on the subject:



Lieutenant is French in origin - (en) lieu tenant - and means holding a place or position for someone else, e.g. lieutenant-governor, acting for a governor. The Americans pronunciation 'loo-tenant' is closest to the French though our obsolescent naval pronunciation 'le-tenant' is close, whereas the army's 'LEF-tenant' seems a corruption of the worst sort. Lieutenants with over eight years in that rank were considered as a separate rank after 1877, the year the 'half-stripe' was introduced. Before World War I a lieutenant who held a command was called lieutenant and commander; in 1912 this was officially abbreviated to lieutenant-commander. In most branches promotion to this rank is automatic after eight years as a lieutenant, though regulations now provide for future promotions to that rank to be by selection.

http://www.readyayeready.com/tradition/customs-of-the-navy/index.htm

I will add that to put it simply, the American military chose the French pronunciation while the British Army (and most of their Commonwealth ground forces) chose to amend it to their version. Why the British Navy (and most of their Commonwealth naval forces) went to something different also, but much closer to the French pronunciation, comes down to the myriad of reasons why language rooted in latin are today so varied.

Ken

[lemonadedrinker]

Hi,
Just to stick an oar in the water here about the French and 'gardez l'eau'... l'eau is pronounced o, not oo, so it would seem unlikely to be the root of 'loo'.

I think it might have some connection with p*ss*ng on the French as at Waterloo, battle of; some slang uses the backend only of words and in Cockney rhyming slang only the back word is used to disguise the meaning somewhat. apples and pears for stairs, north and south for mouth etc etc. Why? I have no idea!
Of course I have nothing against the French..I lived and worked there for a couple of years and love the place. That doesn't mean we should be in the Common Market with them though.

Andy.

[Roger]

Gardez l'eau when pronounced by British townies was probably pronounced gardey loo... http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gardyloo