Wilco Tilit Motor right engine won't start

[cymrych]

Hi all, have a really strange issue with Wilco's Tilt Rotor, in that try as I might, I cannot get the right side motor to start.

This applies to version 1.4 clean, v1.4 with the patch to 1.5 , and both with or without the upgraded freeware VTOL gauge by Rob B available in the file library here.

Just for preemptive confirmation: Yes, SimConnect is present and fully working, as is the newest (Feb 4, 2013) version of Pete's FSUIPC4. All other add-ons utilizing these modules work like a charm without issue. And this Wilco aircraft is installed on a Win7 x64 machine, with all the usual permissions issues taken care of ages ago.

So, what is happening is this: Jump into the aircraft in cold and dark conditions, follow the checklist and the left engine fires right up with no problem at all. The right one, however, only gives me the whine noise of the starter spooling up, and this increase in rpm does show on the EIS display. But that's as far as it goes. The prop never spins up. Same thing happens if I load another aircraft first, get the motors running and drop the flaps then jump back into the Tilit Rotor... Once the scene rebuilds, the engines on the tilt are off, the props are horizontal, and I can't get the right one to start.

Interestingly, I noticed that when the left motor is starting, the Master Caution panel lights up showing "Ignition On" and "Starter" are activated. But these lights never come on for the right motor. Also, there's a fuel warning light that comes on as well (can't recall its tag at the moment.)

Now, I can force the issue and get the engine running, but only by slewing vertically up a thousand feet or so. Set the throttle to about 90%, come off of slew, and the engine is forced to be in running mode. When I do this, then all appears to be runnning perfectly ... no Caution lights about fuel, even and equal EIS numbers between engine 1 and 2, full functionality across all power settings, etc. So, it works (and flies remarkably well, I might add; lots of fun!)... but is not really ideal, of course! AND, if I land and shut down the motors but don't leave the sim, then I'm back to square one, with a no-go on the right engine.

If anyone else has encountered this, please let me know what the devil is going on! I've checked, and double-checked, and triple-checked just about everything in my fsx install that I can think of, but can't fathom any solution. If you have an idea, lay it on me.

Thanks in advance.

Jason

[warchild]

just as a test, once the right engine has started, hold ctrl-E down. it may take up too thirty seconds, but that should initiate startup of the second engine..

[cymrych]

I had tried hitting Cntrl-E, with both motors off and once the left side was running, but no-joy. I didn't hold the keystroke, though, so I'll give that a go. Thanks

UPDATE EDIT: Confirmed, no-joy. Has same result as if I press Cntrl-E with both engines off: the mixture/conditioner lever moves, the ignition switch is engaged, then the starter switch, but no prop movement after the starter initially spools the motor.

I should have mentioned that Cntrl-E will start the left side motor just fine, in addition to the manual method.

I'm thinking there must be something left undefined in one the cfg or model files for this plane. Until I "cheat" and slew to force the right motor to run, I have a "Reserve Fuel Low" and "Fuel Select Off" warning lights on the Caution board. The Reserve I could see, if it requires the right side motor to be actively drawing fuel in order to register properly. But the Fuel Select Off one makes no sense. The aircraft boots with the fuel valves open for each tank. Cycling the valves does make a difference either. Couple all this with no lights on the caution panel for either the ignition or engaging the starter on the right motor (whereas they do light up for the left engine), and I'm thinking the sim just isn't natively "seeing" that this bird has a second engine.

Without digging into the sdk manuals, anyone know off hand what I can look for in a cfg file to test this theory?

[rcbarend]

I had tried hitting Cntrl-E, with both motors off and once the left side was running, but no-joy. I didn't hold the keystroke, though, so I'll give that a go. Thanks

Another tip:
After Cntr-E, try command MixtureRich (Default Ctrl-Shift-F4) and then Ctrl-E again; sometimes twice this sequence.

I occasionally have the same problem as you do, with any twin-engine aircraft (It's not related to the Tiltrotor ).

But doing the above, it has NEVER failed
With all I know, this is still one of the mistery's in FSX which I've never have been able to figure out :)

Rob

[cymrych]

Hey Rob, glad to hear from you! Your VTOL mods are simply fantastic!

Yep, I tried the Cntl-Shft-F4 keystrokes also. (Found out that's what was needed for the AS MV-22, which works great, bye the bye). Still nothing, although it does visually slide the mixture levers to max. Following that with a Cntrl-E, and the mixtures reset to 40% prior to the ignition and starter levers being engaged. Same result if I attempt a manual start following moving the mixtures to maximum, either physically or with Cntl-Shft-F4.

UPDATE: A sort-of solution has been discovered.

It turns out, I was mistaken about not being able to restart the right engine if I shut her down following a slew-induced start. Actually, I can restart it just fine, either manually or with Cntrl-E. All Caution panel warning lights are as they should be, and the right motor fires right up!

So, as a temporary solution until I can actually locate what the issue really is, I configured the aircraft as I wanted for a cold and dark start up with the fuel/cargo loadout I desired, and saved the flight. Closed the sim, and restarted FSX, loaded this saved flight, and everything seems to still work!

Not a perfect scenario, but at least I can cold start the engines without having to slew into the air first!

Plus, I'll compare a few saved scenarios, some with right engine operational and some without, and see what is being saved and how. Might lead me to see what is (potentially) in error in my cfg files.

Thanks everyone. This works for me for the moment, but if there are any other thought, feel free to pass them on!

[rcbarend]

Hey Rob, glad to hear from you! Your VTOL mods are simply fantastic!

Yep, I tried the Cntl-Shft-F4 keystrokes also. (Found out that's what was needed for the AS MV-22, which works great, bye the bye). Still nothing, although it does visually slide the mixture levers to max. Following that with a Cntrl-E, and the mixtures reset to 40% prior to the ignition and starter levers being engaged. Same result if I attempt a manual start following moving the mixtures to maximum, either physically or with Cntl-Shft-F4.

UPDATE: A sort-of solution has been discovered.

It turns out, I was mistaken about not being able to restart the right engine if I shut her down following a slew-induced start. Actually, I can restart it just fine, either manually or with Cntrl-E. All Caution panel warning lights are as they should be, and the right motor fires right up!

So, as a temporary solution until I can actually locate what the issue really is, I configured the aircraft as I wanted for a cold and dark start up with the fuel/cargo loadout I desired, and saved the flight. Closed the sim, and restarted FSX, loaded this saved flight, and everything seems to still work!

Not a perfect scenario, but at least I can cold start the engines without having to slew into the air first!

Plus, I'll compare a few saved scenarios, some with right engine operational and some without, and see what is being saved and how. Might lead me to see what is (potentially) in error in my cfg files.

Thanks everyone. This works for me for the moment, but if there are any other thought, feel free to pass them on!
Glad to hear you have a bypass, but the peculiar behavior of the FSX-autostart remains :)

The reason I know so well about this problem:
I'm working with Dino Cataneo on his new (freeware) F14D, in which I emulate some real-world behaviour on fuel-cut / engine flameout, due to high, or persistant, negative Gforce.
During testing, I used Engine-Autostart 100s of times (because I'm lazy ..LoL) and I've seen Engine-2 Autostart failure several times. But the trick I described earlier never fails.

Still don't know why it happens, but I'm convinced it has nothing to do with your cfg files of the Tiltrotor.
Since I've seen it on other aircraft too, my best guess is that it's some kind of timing bug in the FSX implementation of Autostart (which was re-implemented for FSX compared to FS9).

One day I'll find out why :)

Cheers, Rob

[Dain Arns]

Hey Rob, glad to hear from you! Your VTOL mods are simply fantastic! ...

I'll second that. :applause:
A very belated thanks from me as well for the new versions of the VTOL gauges for the Tilt Rotor and the Osprey, Rob.
Breathed life back into a couple addons I had kinda given up on.

Being a Rotor fan, it's so enjoyable now to still be able to land where I want, and have fixed wing speeds and distances to get there. :wavey:

[Sundog]

I don't know if this is part of your problem; I've had times where I've restarted on a mulit-engine aircraft and if I bump the throttle right after the first engine starts then FSX behaves as if I had pressed shift+e+1 and only throttles the first engine. You have to press shift+e+1+2 very quickly to get it to affect both engines afterward. Of course, if you press shift+e+2 you'll just control the second engine. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to one day getting a warthog flight control set and finally having a multi-engine throttle quadrant.

I just put that out there as something to investigate, I don't know if that's the problem you're running into, it's just something that has happened to me before.

[cymrych]

Hi Sundog,

Nope, thats something I haven't seen. Here or on any of my multiengines (which are most of the aircraft in my hangar.) I've always had good throttle coordination across all throttles, including here. If anything, it's sometimes a pain to get only one throttle to move instead of all of them, such as during taxiing or nasty crosswind t/o and landings!

Can't help you on that one.

[napamule]

Sundog,
You say: '..shift+e+1 and only throttles the first engine. You have to press shift+e+1+2 very quickly..'.

That is not right. The keys 'Shift+E' is for EXIT(s). 'Shift+E+1' points to 'Exit.0' (it ignores the '+2'). The engine control keys are 'Control+E'.

The sequence for multiple engine is: 'J' (if engine is/are 'jet'-makes no difference if it's NOT Jet) then hold 'E' then press '1 then 2' (quickly). (This combo points to engine 1 and engine 2) and will tell throttle controler that subsequent 'orders' (ie: key presses or throttle slide movements) applys to BOTH engine 1 and engine 2. To get individual throttle for engine you do 'E+1' (for engine 1 throttle only) or 'E+2' for engine 2 throttle only.

So when you press 'Control+E' (Engine Autostart) you are pressing it for 'Engine 1' AND 'Engine 2' ** IF ** (BIG IF) you pressed 'E+1+2' beforehand. That's it. There is NO 'Shift+x' combo in (any FSX) Engine Controls.

The slew trick is genius (where have I 'seen'this before? sounds somewhat familiar (hehe)). I guess 'auto' slewing to 501 ft on press of 'Y' key can be set up with (Contact_Points) 'static_cg_height=501'. This would only effect that particular aircraft and none other. Whatever works?
Chuck B
Napamule

[cymrych]

The slew trick is genius (where have I 'seen'this before? sounds somewhat familiar (hehe))...... This would only effect that particular aircraft and none other. Whatever works?
Chuck B
Napamule

Hi Chuck,

Yep, my "solution" (temporary, with luck) of saving a flight once I re-landed and powered down following a forced slew-start of the right motor likewise only affects one iteration of the Tilt Rotor. I think I saw in the simobject/aircraft folder that it has, what, 5 main variant types? So, that'd end up being 5 saved flights. As I say, it works, but as Rob rightly pointed out, the underlying problem still remains.

I'm still hopeful that I can glean some knowledge by comparing a couple saved flights, some before the right motor would work and some after a slew-start. Just need to invent a few extra hours in the day to do so! :icon_lol:

[napamule]

I was being sarcastic with 'where have I seen this (trick) before' as I have been PROFESSING use of quick on/off of slew ('Y' key) as a means of 'recovery' from 'losing it' (control) due to stall/etc (like with helicopters) since time immemorial. Essentially what quick on/off of Y key does is reset some parameters, temp (1 or 2 second) 'freeze' of ac movement, and setting throttle to max. Like the pause when you sneeze (which some claim stops your heart and 'clears' the cobwebs from your brain (via shock of sinuses)). All theory. But 'real'? Like I said, whatever works. Too much fun already.
Chuck B
Napamule

[Sundog]

Sundog,
That is not right. The keys 'Shift+E' is for EXIT(s). 'Shift+E+1' points to 'Exit.0' (it ignores the '+2'). The engine control keys are 'Control+E'.

The sequence for multiple engine is: 'J' (if engine is/are 'jet'-makes no difference if it's NOT Jet) then hold 'E' then press '1 then 2' (quickly). (This combo points to engine 1 and engine 2) and will tell throttle controler that subsequent 'orders' (ie: key presses or throttle slide movements) applys to BOTH engine 1 and engine 2. To get individual throttle for engine you do 'E+1' (for engine 1 throttle only) or 'E+2' for engine 2 throttle only.

So when you press 'Control+E' (Engine Autostart) you are pressing it for 'Engine 1' AND 'Engine 2' ** IF ** (BIG IF) you pressed 'E+1+2' beforehand. That's it. There is NO 'Shift+x' combo in (any FSX) Engine Controls.
Napamule

Thanks for the correction! It's been a while since I've had to do that, obviously. ;)

[cymrych]

UPDATE:

OK, got the time to compare a few saved flights, some with the no-joy condition on the right motor via manual or Cntrl-E attempt, some once this engine was force started via slew in either running or stopped conditions. Here's what I've discovered.

There IS a difference in the saved flight files, in the first 2 lines of the [Fuel.0] section. In every scenario where the right engine is operational, the first 2 lines read as such:

[Fuel.0]
TankSelector=All
TankSelector1=All

But in every scenario where the right motor just won't start, this is what I see in the saved flight:

[Fuel.0]
TankSelector=Left Main
TankSelector1=Center 2

So, it seems pretty clear that regardless of the switch position on the overhead panel, the sim isn't recognizing the starboard fuel tank as open, and so the engine isn't receiving any fuel to start. And unfortunately, the tank selector doesn't have a control function in FSX (although I believe that control assignment does exist in FSUIPC registered version, which I don't have.)

After comparing the 609's cfg to several other multiengine cfg's, I attempted a small experiment. In the [fuel] section of the 609 aircraft.cfg, I changed the number of tank selectors line to read thusly:

number_of_tank_selectors = 1 (Note: changed from 2 to 1)

Fired up the sim, and still no-joy on the right motor, but now the saved file reads as such:

[Fuel.0]
TankSelector=Left Main
TankSelector1=All

So, I'm making progress, and am halfway there. However (and there's always a however, ain't there?), I can't find anything else in the cfg that might affect the TankSelector= line in the saved flight. Any one have any ideas? I'm guessing it's something totally simple that I've overlooked in the cfg, but who knows. Any thoughts appreciated!

EDIT: Also, an observation: After making a long hop from my saved flight in the 609 today, I discovered that if I exit out of the current instance of the sim to the main menu, then set my start conditions in the Free Flight menu and load it up, the 609's right motor works fine. However, if I close fsx completely, then no-joy on the right engine. Which suggests to me that it's got to be something in the aircraft.cfg, since that is what FSX references when loading a 'clean' scenario and not from a previous saved condition. I will, however, read through my saved Default Flight file, since some start-up state condition info is drawn from here as well (although, since it didn't seem to matter when I previously loaded and powered up a different aircraft, then jumped into the 609, I'm doubtful that I'll learn much from my Default flight).

[ncooper]

UPDATE:

EDIT: Also, an observation: After making a long hop from my saved flight in the 609 today, I discovered that if I exit out of the current instance of the sim to the main menu, then set my start conditions in the Free Flight menu and load it up, the 609's right motor works fine. However, if I close fsx completely, then no-joy on the right engine. Which suggests to me that it's got to be something in the aircraft.cfg, since that is what FSX references when loading a 'clean' scenario and not from a previous saved condition. I will, however, read through my saved Default Flight file, since some start-up state condition info is drawn from here as well (although, since it didn't seem to matter when I previously loaded and powered up a different aircraft, then jumped into the 609, I'm doubtful that I'll learn much from my Default flight).

When you exit the sim altogether, FSX reads from the flight saved as default, so logically, if the aircraft will restart after a flight, but will not do so after restarting FSX, the problem lies in the saved default flight, not the aircraft.cfg.
I think you have solved your own problem by what you have observed in the Tankselector entries.
If there are not two tank selector switches in the cockpit, one for each engine, you will need to set both entries to "all"

Milviz recommend that the default flight is saved using the default Cessna 172 with the fuel switch set to both.

[cymrych]

Roger that, ncooper, got it sorted. It was indeed being caused by my default flight, which is with an aircraft with no tank selectors. Through some trial and error, discovered that the first entry in the [fuel.0] section of the saved flight file was being set by the fuel level indicator gauge on the panel of my default aircraft, which can show fuel levels in tank 1, 2 etc, but not all at once. Thus, nothing I change in the sim with my default flight will result in the tank selector being set to "all" for this Wilco Tilt Rotor, at least, not with this aircraft as my default flight.

After this, I discovered pretty quickly that by loading any aircraft with a more regular tank selector (ie: left, main, all settings), setting the selector to "all" and switching aircraft into the 609 via the dropdown menu worked just fine, and the motor fires right up. So, time to change my default flight aircraft, it seems.

I know now, after many many years with fsx, that the recommended default aircraft is the default c172, but I didn't like how that configured my start-up state in some of my more complex aircraft, and thus changed it ages ago. At the time, and not knowing any better back then, I simply selected the aircraft I (still) fly the most, which is quite complex on the system modeling side of things, and until now it worked well for all the subsequent additions to my hangar. Frankly, I'm extremely surprised that I haven't run into this issue before, seeing how the lack of a true tank selector affected the 609!

So no big deal, I just got to select an aircraft for my default flight that's a bit more modern-day standard with its equipment, but that still has enough systems modeling so that my primary daily flyers start in the state I prefer.

Thanks to all for your help and input! One thing that FSX has never let me down with are its uncanny possibilities to always let one learn new things about its sometimes goofy operations, even after being around for nearly a decade!