An update on the Spitfires buried in Burma

[stansdds]

A crate has been found, but it is filled with muddy water. What else is inside the crate remains to be seen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/9790484/Discovery-of-buried-crate-raises-hopes-of-Spitfire-hunters-in-Burma.html

[pfflyers]

I don't understand why they want to take "possibly weeks" to pump the water out of the crate. Why not pull that sucker out of the ground and remove all doubt right now? I guess I'm the impatient type.

[CWOJackson]

They're having to transition from a land based recovery effort to a modified fresh water recovery effort. This could be very similar to a lake recovery process. Unlike a fresh water lake though, I've no idea what the mineral/chemical content of that water is and how it has interacted with the contents of the crate.

[Willy]

I imagine that with ground water it could be like pumping out a well. Depends on how fast the water is flowing back in.

As I've said before, I expected there to be water issues as they weren't buried in a desert. Remember the 57 Plymouth buried in the time capsule in Oklahoma.

[wombat666]

Caught some interesting coverage on this by a pretty reputable aviation writer (styled by the media as an 'Aviation Archaeologist') who ran through the three sites identified.
He stressed the fact that most of these areas have become wet zones, aside from rising water level through natural causes, the construction of dams, diversions and intensified farming has made the entire country 'wetter'.
After 68 years he really doubts that anything as fragile as a Spitfire would do very well at all, given the brackish water, heat, subsidence and who knows what chemical pollution from farming has done.
We all hope that something might emerge but the chances are not good.
:kilroy:

[nigel richards]

Caught some interesting coverage on this by a pretty reputable aviation writer (styled by the media as an 'Aviation Archaeologist') who ran through the three sites identified.
He stressed the fact that most of these areas have become wet zones, aside from rising water level through natural causes, the construction of dams, diversions and intensified farming has made the entire country 'wetter'.
After 68 years he really doubts that anything as fragile as a Spitfire would do very well at all, given the brackish water, heat, subsidence and who knows what chemical pollution from farming has done.
We all hope that something might emerge but the chances are not good.
:kilroy:

The salinity/chemical levels are critical - many aircraft components particularly engines, have a high magnesium content and are reduced to crumbly blue-white salt in extremely short periods of time.

Hasty removal of the the surrounding water would be irresponsible, compound the problem and speed up the proccess due to oxidization.

Unfortunately, the prospect of being blessed with a flock of flyable Spitfires from these excavations is highly doubtful.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

[Okami]

Well, seems the dream is over:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21074699

Archaeologists hunting for World War II Spitfires in Burma believe there are no planes buried at the sites where they have been digging, the BBC understands.

The archaeologists have concluded that evidence does not support the original claim that as many as 124 Spitfires were buried at the end of the war, the BBC's Fergal Keane reports. :(

If something seems to be too good to be true, then it probably is. Oh well, back to recovering some crashed Spits and rebuilding them to airworthiness as usual then, I guess?

[CWOJackson]

A shame.

While I hoped it might be true, the nagging question in my mind was why would Burma have been different.

In so many other locations it seemed the allies just bull dozed most aircraft into heaps and sold them for scrap, yet in this one instance they took the time and effort to preserve and bury them.

[noddy]

However they did find this!

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i305/noddy1966/431331_10151352039799929_1474732080_n_zpse6dcc3b5. jpg

[stansdds]

Dang! :frown:

[Navy Chief]

This is similar to the old story about WW2 Jeeps, packed in grease, brand new in crates. Never happened. There was a company in MN that offered several thousand dollars to anyone who could find one.

Not one single "jeep in a crate" was ever found. I remember hearing similar stories involving brand new, unused Harley WMAs..

NC

[pfflyers]

Totally OT but,

When I was a kid my cousin and I were cleaning out an old barn when we found a small crate containing a preserved military gas-engine generator. I was wishing we could have kept it, but it wasn't our barn.

Back to the Spits,

It must be very frustrating to Mr. Cundall to feel that he has credible witnesses to the burial, but can't pin down the exact location after all this time. It would be a shame to give up if they are there, but he can't really plow up all of Burma in the search.

[TARPSBird]

One of these days maybe somebody in Burma will be excavating for a building foundation, and they'll start bringing up chunks of packing crate or sheet metal and the lost Spitfires will be found. Until then, I think Mr. Cundall is pretty much sh** outta luck.

[wombat666]

Never expected anything to turn up and given the political, social and economic conditions prevailing in Myanmar I doubt anything ever will!

At the end of the Pacific War (so the story goes) the British Pacific Fleet carriers supposedly dumped almost all of the Corsairs, Hellcats and Avengers into the North Eastern waters off the Australian coast.
From time to time various people made noises about diving for them with salvage in mind.
Aside from the obvious corrosion that goes hand in hand with warm salty water, the supposed locations of these sites was well off the Continental Shelf .................... :173go1:

[CWOJackson]

Sometimes you never know.

The U.S. took most of their captured aircraft to Wright Field for testing. A lot of those aircraft ended up at Freeman Field in Seymour, IN. Freeman Field became the last known location for many rare and exotic captured aircraft.

Following some leads, several years ago some folks started digging up piece of German aircraft, including jets. The Air Force had bulldozed a hole, pushed the aircraft in then covered them up.

Unfortunately, you can imagine the condition of what's being brought up.

[TeaSea]

I'd remind everyone that there are organizations currently restoring aircraft pulled up from lake beds. I think that entails exposure to water and corrosive elements.

These were prepped before they went Into the ground. If they are not as deteriorated as current projects they will be fantastic.

[JoeW]

Also remember that Precious Metal and Straga are NOT A 50 year old Army surplus items. They were built for what they are being used for. If a P-51 can be built fresh and all new then any plane can be.

[stansdds]

I'd remind everyone that there are organizations currently restoring aircraft pulled up from lake beds. I think that entails exposure to water and corrosive elements.

These were prepped before they went Into the ground. If they are not as deteriorated as current projects they will be fantastic.

The aircraft recovered from Lake Michigan are in good condition for a couple of reasons. First, it's fresh water, which is far less corrosive than salt water or just about any mineral filled water. Second, the water in Lake Michigan, especially at the depths from which the aircraft have been recovered, is very cold and that also minimizes corrosion.

[Okami]

Sometimes you never know.

The U.S. took most of their captured aircraft to Wright Field for testing. A lot of those aircraft ended up at Freeman Field in Seymour, IN. Freeman Field became the last known location for many rare and exotic captured aircraft.

Following some leads, several years ago some folks started digging up piece of German aircraft, including jets. The Air Force had bulldozed a hole, pushed the aircraft in then covered them up.

Unfortunately, you can imagine the condition of what's being brought up.

Not too good a condition, they were pretty junked before they were buried judging from this picture:

http://www.warbirdradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/FreemanField.jpg

I recognise a Stuka, two Focke Wulf 190s and recognisable bits of a 109, together with bits, bobs and parts that resemble what I had after I accidentally dropped a shelf of my model planes a couple of years ago... >.<

Most of it came out like on the picture of the linked article: http://suite101.com/article/indianas-freeman-army-airfield-plays-role-in-world-war-ii-a252321

Of course, planes have been restored from greater messes - take My Gal Sal for instance, this is what she looked like on her recovery in 1995: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4565003696/

And recently: http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46587&start=90#p482420

[TeaSea]

The aircraft recovered from Lake Michigan are in good condition for a couple of reasons. First, it's fresh water, which is far less corrosive than salt water or just about any mineral filled water. Second, the water in Lake Michigan, especially at the depths from which the aircraft have been recovered, is very cold and that also minimizes corrosion.

I certainly recognize that....but these were aircraft were also involved in accidents with high speed impacts with the water and absolutely no preparation at all. All suffered extensive frame damage upon impact. I absolutely believe that several aircraft will emerge from this stash. Certainly not as many as was put in the ground, but more than one or two as long as there are organizations willing to put in the time, resources, and efforts, to restore them.

[stiz]

theres also one key thing to remember, 90% of all "restored" warbirds are actually new parts or parts pulled from surplus storage, very little of the original plane actually makes it.

[nigel richards]

theres also one key thing to remember, 90% of all "restored" warbirds are actually new parts or parts pulled from surplus storage, very little of the original plane actually makes it.

Correct Sir, or 'manufactured' using the original part only as a guide.

I still consider the policy of the Royal Navy Historic Flight of prohibiting the use of any aircraft-part recovered from a submerged wreck; both very wise and brave.

[wombat666]

The aircraft recovered from Lake Michigan are in good condition for a couple of reasons. First, it's fresh water, which is far less corrosive than salt water or just about any mineral filled water. Second, the water in Lake Michigan, especially at the depths from which the aircraft have been recovered, is very cold and that also minimises corrosion.

As was the case when a Gloster Gladiator and an early Handley Page Halifax were recovered in remarkably good condition from Nordic waters. May have been off Denmark or Sweden, can't remember exactly where.
However, perhaps a trip to Myanmar would dampen the optimism, conditions were bad when we were there (not my choice BTW!) as part of a Medicins sans Frontiers program, but we hear back via other Medics who are there or recently returned that water and soil pollution is worse than ever.
IIRC the various 'Warlord' factions in China during WW.II supposedly buried many of the aircraft supplied for use against the Japanese as personal insurance for post war confrontations, I'm fairly certain that most (if not all) were thoroughly rooted and of no use.
:icon_eek:

[TeaSea]

Perhaps our discussion is based on our varying definitions.....

As an example, when I walk into a home in need of refurbishment I look at the "bones" of the place. Not necessarily where the walls are, how bad the fixtures or appliances look, or where there may or may not be water damage. Even the roof is negotiable.

In the same way, aircraft are "fixer uppers" on a continual basis (ask anyone who owns one). To me, if the frames in fairly good nick, and there's a plate identifying the airframe and registration, then everything else is pretty much negotiable no matter how bad it may look. Even if most of these aircraft are complete write offs, they are a great repository of parts and patterns.

So, I think the cautious are saying...."dude, don't get your hopes up", which is absolutely true.

But, others of us are saying...."great find, even if they're trashed we'll get something from it". Also true.

Before the discovery there was nothing.

[pfflyers]

I had the opportunity some years ago to get a good close look a a Corsair that had been recovered from the bottom of Lake Washington. The aluminum didn't look too bad, the magnesium in the engine was wasted, and the steel was pretty rough. It looked like a viable candidate for a restoration, but you'd be starting with just a fairly intact airframe.

[wombat666]

A bit OT but I should mention this.
Perhaps my view of 'restorations' as compared with 're-manufactured' aircraft are coloured by the Historic/Classic Car movement TeaSea!
At one stage all that was required for a 'restoration' of a rare and much sought after car (let's say a Bugatti) was a chassis plate, eventually this morphed into a situation where a number of 'entrepreneurs' (usually four or five individuals) would pool their resources, buy up a damaged car, divide the carcass into equal shares and 're-birth' five 'genuine' restored vehicles.
The practice became so bad that the Bugatti Owners Club in the UK took a very strong stance about certifying such cars, even to the extent of publicising the fakes so as to avoid fraudulent sales.
Once you could expect to see genuine vehicles in museum collections, sadly this is not true today.
The much touted Donnington collection is riddled with very questionable vehicles, for example, Alfa Romeo built two 'Bi-Motores' and two only. After the Wheatcraft people cut up an historic British 'Brooklands Special' for the engine and a few bits and pieces we had THREE of these Alfas!
I own a Replica Ford GT40 and I always will own a 'Replica', the spirit and the DNA of the real cars is present but it remains a replica.

I guess I can go along with a genuine airframe ID plate as long as an aircraft is identified as a 're-manufactured' one, and only one per ID plate.
However, I'm very cynical about what can be classed as a genuine aircraft today, one can purchase brand new builds for so many types at a price that it devalues the real ones.

I'll get 'orf me soapbox now ........:a1451: