Dx10 scenery issue ORBX CEN4

[Roger]

Looking for a little help here. I have a couple of ORBX freeware airfields both of which are favorites in Dx9 but in Dx10 one type of grass isn't Dx10 compatible. I ran "addon converter x" but no change. It would appear not to be the usual compatibility issue. In CEJ4 there is a bgl called dry grass which when replaced with a fake bgl (a text file named the same as the bgl) cures the problem by removing the grass but in CEN4 there doesn't seem to be a similar bgl so I'm stumped! I posted in the ORBX freeware support forum but after several days there is no reply.
Here's a couple of images showing the offending grass:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/rogera/cen4-1-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/rogera/cen4-2-1.jpg

[TheGrunt]

As far as I know, there is no fix for that problem. There are also some static aircraft on those sceneries which display without textures. No cure for those either.

Even though these new DX10 fixes repair worst problems with DX10, you have to remember that FSX DX10 renderer is not in finished state and it cannot be repaired just by rewriting some shader code. It uses DX10 api for sure, but it is far from working correctly. So anomalies probably occur especially with those sceneries using some older objects.

Best is to stick with DX10 compatible addons. Those small annoyning problems here and there made me to ditch DX10 and jump to P3D.

[Roger]

Thanks for the reply. I guess the problem might occur in P3d when v2 comes along as it will probably support Dx10/11. If I could track down the offending bgl that would be a sufficient fix for me.

[TheGrunt]

Thanks for the reply. I guess the problem might occur in P3d when v2 comes along as it will probably support Dx10/11.
We'll see. Nothing forces me to jump to P3D V2 immediately though, so there is a choice (like there is with choosing between DX9 and DX10 preview)

If I could track down the offending bgl that would be a sufficient fix for me.
I believe with CEN4, grass is "baked" in one of the bgl files and it just doesn't exist separately. I tried to fiddle with it a couple of months ago myself.

[heywooood]

We'll see. Nothing forces me to jump to P3D V2 immediately though, so there is a choice (like there is with choosing between DX9 and DX10 preview)

I believe with CEN4, grass is "baked" in one of the bgl files and it just doesn't exist separately. I tried to fiddle with it a couple of months ago myself.


..this makes me think about going back to Dx9 - the Dx10 just isn't worth all the tweaking and fussing - I love this field (CEN4) and I prefer twilight/dawn lighting and I still can't get nav lights
working properly in D10 so....yeah

[bushpilot]

..this makes me think about going back to Dx9 - the Dx10 just isn't worth all the tweaking and fussing

Yep, too much tweaking can get distracting.

I'm staying in DX10 for now. Gained few frames by switching over, not as much as I was hoping for though. No major bugs so far.

[roger-wilco-66]

hmmm, one could locate the mdl of the grass in the bgl archive with ModelConverterX and could have a look at the material properties / alpha channel parameters.
It also could be replaced by making an invisible dummy object with the same GUID, put in a bgl and save it in a separate addon scenery folder and activate it with a higher priority in the scenery database. Then the offending mdl is overwritten by an invisble dummy model.
I wouldn't remove it altogether, because missing scenery objects generate a foray of hard disk accesses (fps drop) and can generate other unwanted errors.

In your screenshot, Roger, there is some grass faulty and the grass near the aircraft looks normal. Is this a pattern? E.g., on close distance the grass looks OK and from distance it's screwed up?

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Mark

[Roger]

hmmm, one could locate the mdl of the grass in the bgl archive with ModelConverterX and could have a look at the material properties / alpha channel parameters.
It also could be replaced by making an invisible dummy object with the same GUID, put in a bgl and save it in a separate addon scenery folder and activate it with a higher priority in the scenery database. Then the offending mdl is overwritten by an invisble dummy model.
I wouldn't remove it altogether, because missing scenery objects generate a foray of hard disk accesses (fps drop) and can generate other unwanted errors.

In your screenshot, Roger, there is some grass faulty and the grass near the aircraft looks normal. Is this a pattern? E.g., on close distance the grass looks OK and from distance it's screwed up?

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Mark

Hi Mark,
Yes it's just one type of grass among several others in the scenery. I've tried using model converter x but am baffled by it:isadizzy:.

[GaryGB]

Hi Roger:

In Instant Scenery version 2 (aka "IS2") running within FSX:

1.) Right-click the ground in FSX (context menu 1 opens)

2.) In IS2 context menu, select "Extras" (context menu 2 opens)

3.) In IS2 "Extras" menu, select "show objects from all BGLs..." ('objects from all scenery files' dialog opens)

4.) In IS2 "objects from all scenery files" dialog:
a.) Set 1 NM Radius
b.) Check "Objects"
c.) Click "Scan" button ('Scan' is completed; then 'pick list' option appears at bottom of dialog)
d.) In IS2 Objects from all scenery files dialog 'pick list', select "Library and object name"


FS scenery object library BGL name and object name within each library should now appear on screen


Examination of FSX DX10 mode "distorted" grass alongside CEN4 RWY reveals this label above the grass object placements in question:

L:ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL grass_line_long_wi


(Translation):

FS scenery object library BGL name: ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL

FS scenery object name within library: grass_line_long_wi


Examination of [FSX install path]\Orbx folder chain in "Computer" (aka "Windows Explorer") reveals FS scenery library BGL location:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS\Scenery\ORBX_libs_bw_v eg.BGL


Examination of ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL in Arno's "ModelConverterX":

1.) In Menu > Options > Settings: configure all required paths to those used on your system

2.) In Menu > Options > Texture Settings > TextureSearchPath:
a.) Click [...] folder browse button at far right ("Texture search Path Editor" opens)
b.) In Texture search Path Editor, click "Add" button ("Browse For Folder" opens)
c.) In Browse For Folder dialog under "Computer", browse to /select / click "OK" on:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS\Texture folder

d.) Back in Texture search Path Editor, click "OK" button (dialog closes)
e.) Back in Options > Settings dialog, click [X] button in window title bar (dialog closes)

3.) Back in main ModelConverterX GUI Menu, click "Import" ("Open" browse dialog opens)
a.) In "Open" browse dialog, set "Files of type" to: "FS BGL object (*.BGL)"

* Browse to:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS\Scenery folder

* Select / click "Open" on:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS\Scenery\ORBX_libs_bw_v eg.BGL

4.) Back in main ModelConverterX GUI, ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL is rendered on screen at the library object 1 of 32 in that BGL file
a.) Use Green " -->" arrow to advance through library until library object 6 of 32 is on screen (dialog title bar displays):

"ModelConverterX - ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL - grass_line_long_wi"

b.) Hover cursor over 4th Icon to the right of the Green " -->" arrow, click "Material Editor" ("Material Editor" dialog opens)
c.) In Material Editor dialog, note 2 textures mapped to that "grass_line_long_wi" scenery library object:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS\Texture\grass_field_wi .dds

and...

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS\Texture\Orbx_VegRow1.d ds



Examination of grass_field_wi.dds in [FSX SDK install path]\SDK\Environment Kit\Terrain SDK\ImageTool.exe:

* grass_field_wi.dds shows... format: DXT5 / Alpha: unknown / # MIP levels: 7


Examination of Orbx_VegRow1.dds in [FSX SDK install path]\SDK\Environment Kit\Terrain SDK\ImageTool.exe:

* Orbx_VegRow1.dds shows... format: DXT5 / Alpha: unknown / # MIP levels: 8



Perhaps some way that FSX DX10 rendering mode deals with the "grass_line_long_wi" MDL file or either/both of its mapped textures may be the basis for how the grass appears at run time in FSX DX10 mode ?

NOTE: The OpenGL (aka "OGL") rendering engine used in Instant Scenery version 2 (aka "IS2") running within FSX DX10 mode is able to properly display the "grass_line_long_wi" on screen... when one picks that object from the "ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL" library during an "object placement" procedure.

However, IIUC, the IS2 OGL engine works independently from the FSX rendering engine's Windows Direct3D graphics sub-system.


Examination of XML placement BGLs for the OrbX freeware CEN4 package does not find the GUID for the object in question ! :icon_eek:

GUID (in FSX GUID numeric format): {5155570b-f138-4b32-97e5-cdfe671b89e3}

That GUID is the one reported specifically for the grass_line_long_wi object in ModelConverterX

This suggests that the grass scenery objects along the RWY in question may not have been placed (via a standard FS Scenery object XML placement BGL) by the freeware author in his CEN4 package, but instead were placed via "another" custom object or file elsewhere.


Examination of the OrbX FTX Northern Rocky Mountains (aka "NRM") CEN4 airport file:

[FSX install path]\ORBX\FTX_NA\FTX_NA_NRM05_SCENERY\Scenery\ADE_FTX_ NRM_CEN4_High_River.BGL

...Also does not find the GUID for the object in question !



Possibly the OrbX FTX NRM payware package (or the freeware CEN4 package) placed the grass as a custom "autogen" object ? :confused:


Or possibly "grass_line_long_wi" is "attached" to a placed custom scenery object with a different GUID than shown by ModelConverterX ?

IIUC, probably so, since IS2 reports the "placement" BGL file for grass_line_long_wi as: "ORBX_NRM_CEN4_vtm_PLC.bgl"

[EDITED]

Further analysis of coordinates at a placement RefPoint for grass_line_long_wi at CEN4 suggests that the actual GUID used for placement in "ORBX_NRM_CEN4_vtm_PLC.bgl" is:

{971ed6ca-8195-4c80-995b-8dc9f502ea5a}


Perhaps with a bit more inquiry, the OrbX FTX BGL library containing the actual MDL (with the GUID immediately above) to which grass_line_long_wi may be "attached", and thereby "placed" at CEN4 ...might shed more light on a possible cause for why it renders distorted in FSX ?

[END_EDIT]


To verify the placement BGL file name, I did the following:

In Instant Scenery version 2 (aka "IS2") running within FSX:

1.) Right-click the ground in FSX (context menu 1 opens)

2.) In IS2 context menu, select "Extras" (context menu 2 opens)

3.) In IS2 "Extras" menu, select "show objects from all BGLs..." ('objects from all scenery files' dialog opens)

4.) In IS2 "objects from all scenery files" dialog:
a.) Set 1 NM Radius
b.) Check "Objects"
c.) Click "Scan" button ('Scan' is completed; then 'pick list' option appears at bottom of dialog)
d.) In IS2 Objects from all scenery files dialog 'pick list', select "Scenery File Name"


FS scenery object placement file (aka "Scenery File Name") for all displayed objects from each library should now appear on screen


As for the FSX DX10 mode rendering of the ORBX_libs_bw_veg.BGL - grass_line_long_wi FS scenery object, perhaps this might be fixed via creation of a replacement texture file and/or DX10 shader modifications ? :iidea:


Hope this info may help (someone) to find a fix for this interesting freeware airport location ...in FSX DX10 "preview" mode. :mixedsmi:

GaryGB

[pilottj]

http://fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2012/10/04/Fw0eX.jpg
http://fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2012/10/04/iDC7.jpg

I appear to have the same grass issues too at CEN4.

[Roger]

Thanks Gary that gives us as much information as we need to fix the issue. If only I had the tools, oh and the skill... I'd do it.

[pilottj]

The feedback I gathered on the FTX forums is that they really don't support DX10 issues...basically we will have to deal with it. Thats fine, I can certainly understand from a tech support perspective. Still with these DX10 fixes...95% of the things in FSX have been improved, 5% of the things are still glitchy...I can still live with it....and it is pretty simple just to go to the settings and un-check DX10 preview. If we have exit FS, switch FTX regions if we want to fly in NZ or PNW, another step or two doesn't ultimately make much difference in regards to CEN4.

Cheers
TJ

[bushpilot]

I get that same grass issue with West Wind, it's strange because it shows only at certain viewing angles.

And looks like ORBX payware is also showing some issues with DX10, these are from WA56

DX9
http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj640/bushpilot_fi/shadows_dx9_zpsae52d8db.jpg

DX10
http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj640/bushpilot_fi/shadows_dx10_zps508d866a.jpg

Darn this DX10 stuff is so confusing :isadizzy::icon_lol:

[Roger]

Looking at Gary's investigation it looks as if there is uncertainty as to where the actual bgl for this long grass scenery model is which makes it difficult to pin down to exclude or change it. I'm not going to give up yet thought as CEN4 is a favorite (and high fps area).

[Roger]

I get that same grass issue with West Wind, it's strange because it shows only at certain viewing angles.

And looks like ORBX payware is also showing some issues with DX10, these are from WA56

Darn this DX10 stuff is so confusing :isadizzy::icon_lol:

I hadn't noticed it in any payware fields but they will have to sort it out, especially as they support P3D and v2 is looking like it will go Dx10/11 in the not too distant...

[TheGrunt]

I hadn't noticed it in any payware fields but they will have to sort it out, especially as they support P3D and v2 is looking like it will go Dx10/11 in the not too distant...

It doesn't mean that there will be problems with DX11 P3D, if it will be coded along the API rules and so are the addons. Problem with FSX DX10 is that it is not finished but more like broken. And I'm almost 100% sure that some shader code fixing isn't just enough to get rid off all the anomalies, but there are problems in the graphics engine itself. Fixing that requires the source code and software documentation and no one in community has it. DX10 was only released as a preview, a feature that ACES intended to publish in the future, but we all know where this ended.

If this DX10 would be just about fixing some clear text shader definition files, I think that Lockheed boys, many of them ex-ACES would've included full DX10 compatibility to P3D a few releases ago. This doesn't mean that DX10 couldn't be improves (it already has) but I think it is far too optimistic to expect full compatibility.

[Roger]

It doesn't mean that there will be problems with DX11 P3D, if it will be coded along the API rules and so are the addons. Problem with FSX DX10 is that it is not finished but more like broken. And I'm almost 100% sure that some shader code fixing isn't just enough to get rid off all the anomalies, but there are problems in the graphics engine itself. Fixing that requires the source code and software documentation and no one in community has it. DX10 was only released as a preview, a feature that ACES intended to publish in the future, but we all know where this ended.

If this DX10 would be just about fixing some clear text shader definition files, I think that Lockheed boys, many of them ex-ACES would've included full DX10 compatibility to P3D a few releases ago. This doesn't mean that DX10 couldn't be improves (it already has) but I think it is far too optimistic to expect full compatibility.

So far so good with ORBX...and the world. Some AI is clearly Fs9 and white but the issues at CEN4 and others are bad models which can and should be fixed. M$ left a lot out in FsX, Dx10 preview included, but the great improvements in smoothness and general frame rates are so much better that I will not leave it behind and return to Dx9. It's a different sim on my lo-fi rig.

[bushpilot]

It doesn't mean that there will be problems with DX11 P3D, if it will be coded along the API rules and so are the addons. Problem with FSX DX10 is that it is not finished but more like broken. And I'm almost 100% sure that some shader code fixing isn't just enough to get rid off all the anomalies, but there are problems in the graphics engine itself. Fixing that requires the source code and software documentation and no one in community has it. DX10 was only released as a preview, a feature that ACES intended to publish in the future, but we all know where this ended.

If this DX10 would be just about fixing some clear text shader definition files, I think that Lockheed boys, many of them ex-ACES would've included full DX10 compatibility to P3D a few releases ago. This doesn't mean that DX10 couldn't be improves (it already has) but I think it is far too optimistic to expect full compatibility.


I think you are on to something here.





You guys remember that "artist's vision" years ago of how the possible DX10 FSX would look like. Pretty optimistic huh :icon_lol: :

http://i.imgur.com/POzNN.jpg

[Roger]

Wouldn't you kill for that water??:engel016: Shame it was some M$ bull....