Flying privately

[SSI01]

Some time ago I recall seeing that a little-explored option exists for a person to get from one location to another by air. Most folks who are passengers book on a commercial airline; I'm told there are a few who contact a general aviation airport to determine which private pilot qualified to carry passengers is flying to the destination they would also like to visit, and that prospective passenger offers to split the fuel tab if there is room and the pilot is amenable. Is this a viable option for travel? Is there a cost savings in this situation or would it wind up costing about what a commercial ticket would run?

[jmig]

I guess it depends on how far you want to go. A small airplane flying at 150 kts or less takes a good deal of time to get a somewhere. They are small and bouncy. I read once somewhere that if the trip was less than 300-500 miles it is faster to drive. If it is 500-1000 miles a small airplane is good. Beyond a 1000 miles, go commercial.

[Dain Arns]

If you lived in Idaho you could book flights with the Idaho Transportation Department.
The more on the plane, the cheaper the cost per person.
Have to credit Idaho for doing that.
There really is no quick way across Idaho, north/south other than flying.
It all winding two lane roads otherwise.

http://itd.idaho.gov/aero/flight_ops/cost.htm

http://itd.idaho.gov/aero/flight_ops/Schedule.htm
(Too bad there aren't more options like this available here in the US.)

[SSI01]

I guess it depends on how far you want to go. A small airplane flying at 150 kts or less takes a good deal of time to get a somewhere. They are small and bouncy. I read once somewhere that if the trip was less than 300-500 miles it is faster to drive. If it is 500-1000 miles a small airplane is good. Beyond a 1000 miles, go commercial.


Those sound like good rules of thumb - depending on the size of your thumb.

[SSI01]

If you lived in Idaho you could book flights with the Idaho Transportation Department.
The more on the plane, the cheaper the cost per person.
Have to credit Idaho for doing that.
There really is no quick way across Idaho, north/south other than flying.
It all winding two lane roads otherwise.

http://itd.idaho.gov/aero/flight_ops/cost.htm

http://itd.idaho.gov/aero/flight_ops/Schedule.htm
(Too bad there aren't more options like this available here in the US.)


I had no idea the state was doing this - what do the regional airlines have to say about it?

Idaho is an interesting place. I read Ben Stein's periodic column in the American Spectator once talking about Sand Point, up in N. Idaho. Sounds like a nice spot, well off the beaten path. I was told once if you flattened Idaho out it would be bigger than Texas.

[pfflyers]

I think that part of the problem with that plan would be the advanced notice required. If someone owned their own airplane and were flying VFR they wouldn't need to tell anyone before they left. Even if they did file a flight plan they could drop it off on the way out to their plane. Even an IFR flightplan doen't require much advance notice so I don't know how the "airport" could hook you up. Maybe if you called all the FBOs on the airport you might find that someone renting an airplane had reserved one for a certain destination, possibly they could put you in touch. I guess what I'm trying to say is that "the airport" is unlikely to have any idea what pilots are flying where, at least until that pilot asks for departure clearance, by which time it would be too late for you.

That pertains to private pilots, I have heard that some corporate flight departments will sell unused seats. You'd probably have to have some way contacting them directly. Don't know how you'd search for flights going you way.

Maybe you could sit on your bag at the entrance to your local airfield with a cardboard sign, "will pay for gas for a ride to peoria".

[TeaSea]

Beyond that you need to understand a couple things about private flying....

It's expensive. And, it's expensive.

I fly on government business occasionally. To do so I must complete a comparative request that justifies my use of a private airplane. What I have discovered is that there is this sweet spot of several hundred miles that justifies my use of the airplane. Beyond that it's cheaper to fly commercial, inside that it's quicker to drive.

When flying for myself, that range gets extended a bit since it's worth my time to fly myself and I don't have to justify that back to the government.

I would be more than happy to fly anyone anywhere asuming I can leave when I want and come back when I want.

Most travellers want more control over their schedules.

[srgalahad]

That pertains to private pilots, I have heard that some corporate flight departments will sell unused seats. You'd probably have to have some way contacting them directly. Don't know how you'd search for flights going you way.

In most cases, simply, NO. Under the part of the FARs that covers corp. operations and the subsequent operating permits and rules, most corp. flight depts. are able to carry (with suitable accounting) their own employees traveling on company business, or non-business purposes on occasion. Since all that is subject to IRS review, it has to be accounted for.

In Canada there was a time when many companies carried associated personnel on a 'cost recovery' basis to the more remote locations in the oil & gas industry, but that came to a screeching halt when a couple were reported - either by other other corporations or more often by charter carriers who were thereby losing potential revenue. Now the standard model is "active, required employees and contractor employees required to work on their contract at the specific site" esp. where any $ are involved. The threat of loss of an operating certificate for "illegal carriage of passengers" is a pretty big threat to big business, let alone a small operator. There are ways around part of it, but most corps. don't feel it's worth it to re-write their op. cert. Also there is the liability issue.

On the other hand, there are some obscure forums that occasionally communicate 'ride-sharing' but as TeaSea said, it's not when the pax want to go, or where, but where the owner/pilot is headed. One example was one that posted rides wanted/available to Oshkosh. If the travel is not urgent or particular it can occasionally be fun. However, a pilot I see regularly has stopped offering seats due to the cost/issues of passenger liability insurance - remember if something bad happens it's not you but your many aggrieved relatives who call the lawyers.

Security and legalities have taken a lot of the freedom out of the skies.

[SSI01]

All of this has been most informative and I thank everyone who has contributed. Whether the answer is "yes" or "no," "doable" or "not doable," it's never a waste when you learn something.:salute:

[modelr]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it illegal for a private pilot to ask for you to help pay expenses? The pilot must hold a commercial ticket for that? I mention that because all the guys in my circle who have their own planes, or rent the local scoooter have always told me "don't say anything while in/on airport grounds about helping/offering to pay for any part of the ride" We always make sure to "settle up" when somewhere else.

[cheezyflier]

I guess it depends on how far you want to go. A small airplane flying at 150 kts or less takes a good deal of time to get a somewhere. They are small and bouncy. I read once somewhere that if the trip was less than 300-500 miles it is faster to drive. If it is 500-1000 miles a small airplane is good. Beyond a 1000 miles, go commercial.

that's toronto to philly in 2 hours. well, you could drive the same distance in about 10 hrs, for alot less $$ but how much is your time worth? could 20 gallons of fuel really cost that much? i looked it up.
6-10 gal/hr for a 172. that's about $150 in fuel from billy bishop in toronto. so far, it don't sound to me like it's that big of a deal. what would the other cost be? renting a plane?
$150/hr (wet) X 2=$300 + $150 fuel, (i'm guessing you replace what you use) it would cost that much to fly the same route commercially, and you'd still have to deal with tsa, being 2 hours early at the airport, the lines, the other people on your plane, etc.

[TeaSea]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it illegal for a private pilot to ask for you to help pay expenses? The pilot must hold a commercial ticket for that? I mention that because all the guys in my circle who have their own planes, or rent the local scoooter have always told me "don't say anything while in/on airport grounds about helping/offering to pay for any part of the ride" We always make sure to "settle up" when somewhere else.

This is covered in the Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Section 61.113(a - c). Basically it states that a Private Pilot is not permitted to either act as a pilot in command on and aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, or to get compensate for being a pilot in command of any aircraft. HOWEVER, there is an exception to that prohibition which permits a private pilot to share operating expenses of a flight with his passengers. This can include fuel, oil, airport expenditures, aircraft rental fees, etc....

Because it is sometimes confusing and there is no hard way to determine "shared costs", people get a little paranoid about it but the FAA clearly states if you and I wanted to fly up to Oshkosh next year and decided to split the costs, we'd be cool. If we wanted to fly to Oshkosh next year you said that you'd pay the entire cost, then we would not be so cool and the FAA might want to ask me some questions should it come to light.

One point though, the pilot and passengers must be on a flight in which each has a general interest and as indicated above, the issue of liability is significant.

There area also changes to the governance of the aircraft itself.

[modelr]

This is covered in the Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Section 61.113(a - c). Basically it states that a Private Pilot is not permitted to either act as a pilot in command on and aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, or to get compensate for being a pilot in command of any aircraft. HOWEVER, there is an exception to that prohibition which permits a private pilot to share operating expenses of a flight with his passengers. This can include fuel, oil, airport expenditures, aircraft rental fees, etc....

Because it is sometimes confusing and there is no hard way to determine "shared costs", people get a little paranoid about it but the FAA clearly states if you and I wanted to fly up to Oshkosh next year and decided to split the costs, we'd be cool. If we wanted to fly to Oshkosh next year you said that you'd pay the entire cost, then we would not be so cool and the FAA might want to ask me some questions should it come to light.

One point though, the pilot and passengers must be on a flight in which each has a general interest and as indicated above, the issue of liability is significant.

There area also changes to the governance of the aircraft itself.




Thanks for that, TeaSea. Our local FBO operator was a real SOB, so everyone was careful around him. He's retired now, and I understand our new one is a little more "friendly."

[pfflyers]

When I made my first post I was thinking the hardest part of making this work would be the hookup of the pilot and passenger (ie: how would they find each other). Now that we have this new fangled internet thingie it seems like bulletin boards must be set up for this, aren't they? Or would there be legal issues with that plan?

[Dain Arns]

I had no idea the state was doing this - what do the regional airlines have to say about it?

Idaho is an interesting place. I read Ben Stein's periodic column in the American Spectator once talking about Sand Point, up in N. Idaho. Sounds like a nice spot, well off the beaten path. I was told once if you flattened Idaho out it would be bigger than Texas.


Well, since there aren't any regional airlines... :icon_lol:

That's really the problem with air travel for folks west of the Mississippi River, there is none.
We just had Allegiant Air pull out of a lot of smaller western cities this month. (No loss from what I hear)
They had plenty of passengers using the service from here, they state they had no one coming from their main hub in Los Angeles out to here and back.
I figure that's probably true.
I know the last carrier we had here locally in town stopped about 10 years ago.

We drive long distances a lot out here. :wavey:

[Victory103]

SSI, along with TeaSea use of the word "expensive", I'll give you small taste on what I did this last Friday. Dads works at LIT and I wanted to just fly up for lunch, well beyond the $100 hamburger. With the rental PA-28, and a modest cruise speed, the 6+00 round trip from central TX cost follows:

Rental: $120 per hour (wet)= $720
Fuel at LIT: 29 ga @ & $7 a gal= $210 <--will be taken from my block time for the rental.

Many planes have the Auto Gas STC, although finding non-ethanol gas is getting harder. Getting a group of friends can help, if they want to go there. Of course the best part of GA, pull up the FBO, tie down your plane and walk over hopefully per-arranged rental car.

[TeaSea]

Thanks for that, TeaSea. Our local FBO operator was a real SOB, so everyone was careful around him. He's retired now, and I understand our new one is a little more "friendly."

The whole deal with the FAA is also that it's set up to be an adversarial relationship from the get go. That's not the intent, but in reality that's how it works out. Because flying and use of the airspace is deemed a "privilege", not a fundamental right, anyone can be deemed to be in arrears of the regulatory guidance at any time and is presumed guilty until proved otherwise. Quite the opposite from all other jurisprudence, and add to that the fact that the determination is normally made by someone in the bureaucracy, not an elected representative.

Most American's have a problem with that.

As a result I'm convinced that our air space is less safe. But that's just my opinion....off topic a bit I know, but that explains to an extent why your former FBO would be intransigent about the use of his aircraft and so sensitive to any potential for misinterpretation.