Update on my Ford FE project...Started new engine today

[fsxar177]

Good-day fellas...

Started the new motor today. First run was 15 minutes, held at around 1700-2200rpm. Using Rotella 15-40, and Lucas cam-break-in, for the flat-tapped cam.
Was a little difficult to keep cool, I think we came out around the 230 degree mark on water. And I know the oil was very warm. Changed oil/filter after that 15 minute mark, with fresh Rotella and Lucas again, and then ran another 5 minutes. Quit for now, a big question, considering I've never broke in a motor before:

How much engine noise should be heard? Excess noise seems present, not really a knock, but almost more or less a friction sound. I couldn't pin-point any area with a metal rod. Oil pressure has been very good. Hard for me to tell exactly what the sound is. This audio clip, recorded during the session, gives a good idea, please listen to it at the following link:
LISTEN TO AUDIO (http://www.fsxairsports.com/test/breakin.wav)
(I fade-in/out of different sequences through the break-in, the noise seems more prominent after the first few minutes??) Crossing my fingers on this one.

I pulled the valve covers, rockers, and push-rods...nothing amiss from my line of sight... Oil didn't have any sparkle...will investigate filter tomorrow.

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6090002.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6090001.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6120003.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6120005.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6120008.jpg

Any ideas fellas?
Joseph

[cheezyflier]

after listening to the clip, what i'm hearing sounds like sinusoidal depleneration. i would try applying an inverse reactive current to the unilateral phase detractors. in the past, ive seen the two spurving bearings run in a direct line with the panametric fan, a common mistake.
hope this helps
:wiggle:

[fsxar177]

after listening to the clip, what i'm hearing sounds like sinusoidal depleneration. i would try applying an inverse reactive current to the unilateral phase detractors. in the past, ive seen the two spurving bearings run in a direct line with the panametric fan, a common mistake.
hope this helps
:wiggle:


....you've got to be kidding!...

[cheezyflier]

....you've got to be kidding!...

no, it really is that simple. 10 minutes and you'll have her running like a sewing machine :wavey:

[robert41]

Great project you have. Hard to tell form the audio, but there should not be any metallic noise, except some valvetrain clatter with solid lifters if you have them. New rebuilds do run hot at first.

[Willy]

There is definitely something rattling around there in the last half of that audio clip.

230 is a lot hotter than I like to get one of those older engines. 180 to 190 is where you want one of those. Modern engines were made to run hotter than the older ones. Past boiling temp on an older engine, I'm looking to shut it down and find out why it's not staying at a proper operating temp.

Another thing. I rebuilt engines for over 30 years. I'd never run a new engine at that fast of an idle on it's first run. 1200 would be about max for me and 1000 would be more like it. I believe in babying one until it's broke in.

I'd find out what the problem is with the cooling, check the valve adjustment and try it again, but slower. Some of what I was hearing sounds like valve rockers or lifters.

[stansdds]

I do not like that knocking sound near the end of the clip. I agree, initial break in at much over 1000 rpm is not a good thing and a water temp of 230F is bad. I'm wondering if that knock is a scuffed piston. Flat tappet engines do make more noise, but it is a harmonious clicking sound, not a knock. What was your piston to bore clearance and were the bores and pistons well coated with oil when the engine was assembled?

When I built up a fresh 400 for my Ford Torino, I put a healthy coat of oil in the bores, then a heavy coat of oil on the pistons, making sure that the rings, especially the oil ring, had plenty of oil. When my engine was first started it belched out a blue smoke screen, but I did not hear noise like that and mine never ran that hot.

[aircav1970]

Hate to say it but if I were you first thing I'd do is pull the valve covers and check for any metal shavings in the valve train and then pull the oil pan and inspect that for shavings,230* is too hot for an FE series engine,that indicates something is generating a lot of heat and that could be a bearing failure.I know that's a lot of work to go through now but better now than after you get the project completed....

[Dangerousdave26]

I would look at the bottom end myself also.

Myself I have never been in the camp of breaking in an engine at high rpm. I have some friends who always believed in it I never agreed.

[fsxar177]

I'm using the recommended RPM for break-in, based on the machine shop that supplied the engine. Keeps me under warranty.

Split the oil filter in two, and found some shavings...is this too much brass?

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6130003.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6130002.jpg
http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb331/fsxar177/P6130001.jpg

Joseph

[robert41]

Since it is under a warranty, talk to the shop that built the engine about the noise and metal shavings. Usually you will find some shavings in the filter after a fresh rebuild. But dont tell them that you ran it up to 230deg.

[Willy]

The oil galleries have to flush out the debris that gets in there during the machining processes. That's probably where that metal came from.

BTW, what's the cubic inches on that? I've owned a couple of FEs in the past, but they were 352s in a 65 & a 66 F-100. They were pretty tough engines if you take care of them.

[Thoe6969]

If the shavings are indeed brass,they did not come from the machine shop,and should not be there.The bottom end is going to have to come apart.Did they check crank end play and plastigauge the bearings?Way too high a break in rpm,shouldn,t be over a thousand rpm and should be done in stages of running up to 180 degrees and letting it cool down completely,and repeting three or four times.No doubt 230 degrees did it in.

[stansdds]

The block and cylinder heads should have been thoroughly cleaned of metal shavings before the engine was assembled. You have significant metal in that filter, I'd be worried about where that metal came from and where it went before the filter caught it.

There is very little brass inside these engines. Freeze plugs (if you use good ones, cheap ones are steel), bearings (not really brass, but lead-aluminum with a copper backing) and replacement valve guides (usually bronze, but bronze looks a lot like brass). Are you sure that's brass? Steel and aluminum shavings, when coated with motor oil, tend to look a golden yellow color. A quick test to see if it is steel or iron shavings is to see if it sticks to a magnet.

[Willy]

Just out of curiousty, what did you use to split the filter in two? Hopefully not a hacksaw.

[fsxar177]

Thanks for all of the input fellas. I spoke with the machine shop. He doesn't seem to think it's abnormal. Didn't comment on the sound. I cut the filter with a razor sharp knife, clean cut. On top of the shavings in the oil filter, I found another interesting bit...maybe what's causing the noise..

#8 Intake push-rod was scraping along side the port, on the intake... Sorry, no photo.. It was enough to hold the rocker arm over about 3/32.

So, I just pulled the intake..and am in the process of creating room!

Let's see what happens...
It's a 390 stroke, with 428 bore, = 406

JT

[stansdds]

That's still not good. There should be ample clearance for the push rod as it passes through the intake manifold. If it's scraping, make sure to check the pushrod for straightness. Place the pushrod on a perfectly flat surface, a sheet of glass is often a good surface to use, and see if it rolls smoothly or if it wobbles. If it wobbles, you have a bent push rod. That's not to say that the problem is not the passage in the intake manifold. The Edelbrock Performer manifold I used on my 400 was great, except for one port which had a big casting flash that partially obstructing the intake passage. Sometimes you get one that needs a little work.

If the pushrod is straight, make sure you have the correct preload (hydraulic lifters) or lash (solid lifters). Too much clearance between the end of the push rod and the rocker arm can result in the push rod knocking around inside the guide hole.

Damn, it's been such a long time since I've had to use this knowledge.

[robert41]

A guy at work, big ford fan, is building a FE for his 62 Galaxie. A 390 block with 427 heads and intake.
He ran into the same problem, pushrods scraping along the intake. Needed some grinding.

[Willy]

A high school buddy of mine has his dad's old '63 Galaxie 500 with it's original 406 engine and 4 speed. His Dad bought the car new and it's been in their family ever since. Although they did run it with a 390 for several years, but eventually they put the original 406 back in it. While the 406 was out of the Galaxie, they had it in a '64 F-100 for a few years.

That was one fast ol' Galaxie!

[AussieMan]

Have you checked the valve settings? The last couple of sequences sounded like tappett rattle, meaning the clearance on the tappetts are not correct.

[modelr]

I have to agree with most of the comments here. Being a Ford dealership mechanic for over 37 years, been around a lot of FE engines.

230 degrees is way to hot, even while first run breaking in. On an FE, 210 is dangerous. There is to much metal expansion going on. Also, we were told by the factory instructors to never idle an engine over 2000 rpm unloaded. Centrifigal forces are huge. When the engine is loaded, the forces are controlled, when not loaded, (working) they are throwing everywhere but where designed. I always first run/broke in new builds at 1000-1500 rpm, max. And if temp went over 205, shut it down, something is wrong.

Your noise could have been from excessive expansion in a cylinder, (piston or rod/wristpin.) You have headers on, which transmit much more cylinder noise than the stock cast iron manifolds.

Another problem which may have contibuted to your heat problem is your flex fan. They are designed to "flatten out" at rpms a little over idle. 2000 rpm they have lost much of their "suction" pulling air thru radiator. Our shop had a big box fan that we would put in front of the vehicle to help push air thru during first run.

The noise I heard sounded more lower end, reciprocating part than upper, lifter/rocker sound. Heavier.

Like stansdds said,"it's been a long time since I've had to use this knowledge."

[fsxar177]

A big thank-you to everyone who has responded...

I pulled the intake, fixed the push-rod clearance issue, and re-installed. (Along with everything that entails!)

Should be ready to fire it again today. We'll see what happens! I've got my fingers crossed that the pushrod was my sound..

Joseph

[fsxar177]

Fellas,


Big thanks to all who have offered help!


The pushrod clearance issue, was not my noise...bummer!
The knock persists.


Going to pull the motor, and it's going back to the machine shop.


Put a laser temp sensor on...my water was also getting to around 205-210 max...but opening up at 195 out of the motor. Not as hot as I first thought.


Thanks again,
Joseph

[modelr]

I didn't think it was top end, totally differernt sound.

As for the laser temp sensor, don't depend on them for exact readings. They are not perfectly accurate, as they read the light waves emitted from the part. They are used more for finding hot/cold spots. Not unusual for them to be 5-10 degrees off, depending on the material they are reading from.

Good luck