Dose Pre Damage work on Ships?

[Allen]

I've been trying to use Pre Damage on the SHJ_HIRYU but it seems not to work. I've tried every weapon I have but it is unsinkabe.

[Talon]

I've been trying to use Pre Damage on the SHJ_HIRYU but it seems not to work. I've tried every weapon I have but it is unsinkabe.

I know ShadowWolf uses the predamage in some of his campaigns and I use it once in awhile. I just tested the Hiryu with predamage and it sank after a flight of Avengers drop bombs on it.


Talon

[Allen]

Make no since than. I set one up at 99 Pre Damage.I have the AI SBDs attack it and I unload 16 250 lb from the OH B-24 but it dose nothing...

This is clean install so I know the ship is stock.

Torpedeos did work after the AI stuck 2 in it at 99. Maybe I have the Pre Damage backwards..

[Shadow Wolf 07]

I have that (stock) ship in some of my earlier published missions and it sinks like a stone without predamage at all - weapons strengh set to "Normal". I now use Usio's, Collin's and VN's ships because the stock ships seem to sink too easily. Thanks for the plug Talon :) Predamake does work.

[Allen]

Predamage dose work but it don't work like I wanted it to. The ships use many boxes in there DP like aircrat. All these box are on the deak so dive bombers can't sink it with out destroing all the deck boxes first than it will hit the hull boxes and sink. It like armor.

If the bombers sling a bomb in to the hull box with a large predamage set it will sink. The hull has no boxes to act as armor. This is why "Fish" sink CFS2 ships fast with no predamage.

Anyway I'm trying to remake Abacus Battle for Midway (CFS1) for CFS2 but the SHJ_HIRYU and ENTERPRISE_CV-6 didn't act like they should. I end up make a copy of them that use a simple DP.

[Shadow Wolf 07]

Allen:

Try this mission... http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/page.php?lloc=downloads&loc=downloads&page=info&FileID=10025 it is all stock. The player F6F-3 with 2 500lb bombs can sink a stock Hiryu (without predamage). The AI do just as well with other carriers in the TF. Aim for the "meatball" on the flight deck...

[Allen]

I call bullship....

2 500lb will not sink it when I dump the better part of 16 250 lbs down the deck.


610656106661067610686106961070

[sc7500]

... Of Throwing jet fuel into the fire...

Here's the important part of Hiryu's DP File:

[SYSTEMS]
system.0=%system_name.0%,20000,-1
system.1=%system_name.1%,20000,-2
system.2=%system_name.2%,20000,-3
system.3=%system_name.3%,20000,-4
system.4=%system_name.4%,20000,-5
system.5=%system_name.5%,20000,-6
system.6=%system_name.6%,20000,-7
system.7=%system_name.7%,20000,-8
system.8=%system_name.8%,20000,-9
system.9=%system_name.9%,20000,-10
system.10=%system_name.10%,20000,-11
system.11=%system_name.11%,20000,-12
system.12=%system_name.12%,20000,-13
system.13=%system_name.13%,20000,-14
system.14=%system_name.14%,50000,-15
system.15=%system_name.15%,50000,-16
system.16=%system_name.16%,50000,-17
system.17=%system_name.17%,50000,-18
system.18=%system_name.18%,50000,-19
system.19=%system_name.19%,50000,-20
system.20=%system_name.20%,50000,-21
system.21=%system_name.21%,50000,-22
...................
Etcetera.

[Your Numbers Will Likely Be Different, Mine Have Been Modified Over The Years]

Lower all numbers in the RED location on the [SYSTEMS] list in 500 point increments until it sinks how you want it to. :wiggle:

SC
:kilroy:

[Allen]

Like I said. I made copies of both USN and IJN CVs and gave them a simple DP that only has 3 boxes and one system. This way there are no strong or weak spots.

I don't understand why people are saying the stock ships are weak...

[Shadow Wolf 07]

... Of Throwing jet fuel into the fire...

Here's the important part of Hiryu's DP File:

[SYSTEMS]
system.0=%system_name.0%,20000,-1
system.1=%system_name.1%,20000,-2
system.2=%system_name.2%,20000,-3
system.3=%system_name.3%,20000,-4
system.4=%system_name.4%,20000,-5
system.5=%system_name.5%,20000,-6
system.6=%system_name.6%,20000,-7
system.7=%system_name.7%,20000,-8
system.8=%system_name.8%,20000,-9
system.9=%system_name.9%,20000,-10
system.10=%system_name.10%,20000,-11
system.11=%system_name.11%,20000,-12
system.12=%system_name.12%,20000,-13
system.13=%system_name.13%,20000,-14
system.14=%system_name.14%,50000,-15
system.15=%system_name.15%,50000,-16
system.16=%system_name.16%,50000,-17
system.17=%system_name.17%,50000,-18
system.18=%system_name.18%,50000,-19
system.19=%system_name.19%,50000,-20
system.20=%system_name.20%,50000,-21
system.21=%system_name.21%,50000,-22
...................
Etcetera.

[Your Numbers Will Likely Be Different, Mine Have Been Modified Over The Years]

Lower all numbers in the RED location on the [SYSTEMS] list in 500 point increments until it sinks how you want it to. :wiggle:

SC
:kilroy:

Mine looks the same as yours SC.

[sc7500]

...M(y DP File) looks the same as yours SC...

Well then - What the heck is going on with Allen's deal ?

If his setup is all stock, the bombs should have "standard" hitting power....

Should we have him upgrade the destructive #s in the bomb DPs to make the flat top go poof ?

SC
:kilroy:

[Allen]

I don't need any upgrades made my own DP for copies of US and IJN CVs. Also both of your Hiryu .dps are stronger than stock. Stock has 3000 on 14 to 21

[Shadow Wolf 07]

I don't need any upgrades made my own DP for copies of US and IJN CVs. Also both of your Hiryu .dps are stronger than stock. Stock has 3000 on 14 to 21

I have another Hiryu - Hiryu-2 that came with a multiplayer set of missions - identical to the Stock Hiryu except it has no guns. It shows 30,000 (not 3,000) for the 14-21 range values. And you say yours is harder to sink with such low protection values??? Our Hiryu-1s are a bit stronger, true but are quite sinkable, more so than an Usio equivalent with a Pen32Win dp..

[The B24 Guy]

Hi Guys,

This intregued me. I set up a mission like Allen's this is what happened.

With 250lb bombs 6 hits set a fire but no sink.
with 500lb bombs 4 hits set a fire but no sink
with 1000lb bombs 2 hits and sunk it.

This is one of the few true CFS2 bugs.

When attacking most ships with bombs (like torpedos).
If you approch from the rear you need to hit the rear half of the ship. The bombs that hit the front do no damage.
If you approch from the front you need to hit the front half of the ship.

So, I would say use at least 1000lb bombs and hit it in the right place.

Good hunting,
B24Guy

[Allen]

I'm sure that the ships have "weak"spots and if they are hit there they sink faster. Below is a cheat sheet that list the damage that US and Japanese weapons damage.

20000=Jap Type 91
15000=US Mk 13
10000=US 1000 Lb
5500=Jap 250 Kg
5000=US 500 Lb
2500=US 250 Lb
1320=Jap 60 Kg

[Shadow Wolf 07]

Hi Guys,

This intregued me. I set up a mission like Allen's this is what happened.

With 250lb bombs 6 hits set a fire but no sink.
with 500lb bombs 4 hits set a fire but no sink
with 1000lb bombs 2 hits and sunk it.

This is one of the few true CFS2 bugs.

When attacking most ships with bombs (like torpedos).
If you approch from the rear you need to hit the rear half of the ship. The bombs that hit the front do no damage.
If you approch from the front you need to hit the front half of the ship.

So, I would say use at least 1000lb bombs and hit it in the right place.

Good hunting,
B24Guy


I and my wingmen and other AI divebombers usually approach from the rear. I've watched the AI on bomb runs and they seem to attack amidships. I always use the "meatball" on the forward elevator as my aiming point. B-24 Guy: As I said above If I hit with 2-500lb bombs (using an F6F-3 Stock Hellcat) there on a stock carrier I almost always get a sinker.

Allen: The values you give are actully weaker than those given for a stock Kagero class Destroyer, which can be sunk in 3-4 passes with a stock Hellcat's machine guns. This weakness is why I rarely use stock ships but rather Usio's with Pen32Win's alternaste dps. He did not do those dps for the stock combatants however.

[Allen]

The values I gave are true. Put your CFS2 CD#1 in and explore the CFS2.CAB. Inside of the CFS2.CAB you will find EVERY CFS2 file and the shj_Hiryu.dp. Copy it to your desk top so you can open it. Stock has 3000 on 14 to 21.

[UncleTgt]

I think the stock ship dps probably need to be revamped. Blue Devil had some good ideas on improving ship dps. Take a look at his Liberty Marus & associated discussions & it might help.

[sc7500]

Found this in my archives.... Can't remember who cooked it up, but it makes for a decent, basic starting point.

Use 'em or Don't.
SC
:kilroy:

61230

[The B24 Guy]

I and my wingmen and other AI divebombers usually approach from the rear. I've watched the AI on bomb runs and they seem to attack amidships. I always use the "meatball" on the forward elevator as my aiming point. B-24 Guy: As I said above If I hit with 2-500lb bombs (using an F6F-3 Stock Hellcat) there on a stock carrier I almost always get a sinker.

Allen: The values you give are actully weaker than those given for a stock Kagero class Destroyer, which can be sunk in 3-4 passes with a stock Hellcat's machine guns. This weakness is why I rarely use stock ships but rather Usio's with Pen32Win's alternaste dps. He did not do those dps for the stock combatants however.

Your aim point may be the meatball, but where do your bombs really hit? If you watch the AI dive bombers they always attack at an angle and hit towards the middle of the ship.

Attack one of the battle ships from the rear and hit the forward turret. You will see what I mean.
Also Allen, when you reduce the number of damage boxes on the ships you tend to make the problem greater.

This problem is easy to see with torpedo attacks.

Regards,
B24Guy

[Allen]

No bomb or torpedo prob as of now. I cut both CVs to one large hull box. The Japanese CV takes 4 500lbs and it is sunk and the US CV takes 4 250kg and it is sunk.

I'm not using torpedos but I did test the Japanese CV that is at 20000 or the same as Jap Type 91. The Type 91 sent the Japanese CV down in one hit. I had no fish go under the CV. I only made one run and it worked the first time.

[The B24 Guy]

Allen,
Well, that sounds promising.
Only one hull box. I will have to try it.

Regards,
B24Guy

[Shadow Wolf 07]

Iam watching this thread with great interest. Though the original question seems to have been lost. No one knows for sure if predamage works, but I use it often when a mission has a ship being attacked for the second time, ie: the Musashi in my "USS Essex CV9" campaign or the Shokaku in the "Desperate Battles" campaign.

The B-24 Guy: You are absolutely right, The AI mostly attack from a slight angle astern and seem to aim for amidships. Looking at the picture I posted the aiming point was the meatball, but the impact point was probably closer to amidships too.

UncleTgt: "I think the stock ship dps probably need to be revamped. Blue Devil had some good ideas on improving ship dps. Take a look at his Liberty Marus & associated discussions & it might help."

The only thing I did to my stock ships was to add Nibbio's dps and cfgs to accomodate his longer wakes, smoke, oil slicks/debris etc. None of those additions seemed to change vulnerability. Instead of strenghening or modifying them, other than as mentioned above, I use different ships - Collin's, Usio's and VN's. Most players now have computers that can handle them now without too much frame rate drain and they look 100% better and are tougher than their weaker stock "cousins." I now only use stock ships in a mission when they are not primary targets and the formation is too large to use all Usio ships - to save on frame rates. Again, I use Pen32Win's dps for the VN and Usio shipping because the mellow out the flak a bit and reduce the hardness (on Usio's very hard ships). These are only for PTO shipping however and only a rare few for stock craft.

A strike on Usio's Zuikaku watch my wingmen attack after my run: http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j220/Pechora07/?action=view&current=SolomonsStrike4B.mp4 we didn't sink her but met the damage percentage requrement for mission success.

[UncleTgt]

SW07,

Agree it's quite an enlightening discussion.

What I was trying to say was I think Blue Devil had some neat ideas in how he developed the dp boxes & effects for his Liberty Maru/ ACM vessels, & thought the stockers might benefit from the same approach.

He had "near miss" boxes & ship sinker effects modelled into the dp file, & coupled with some combination of effects seemed to get some "realistic" results...

[Shadow Wolf 07]

I would like to quote Cody Coyote's 2011 Mision Builder's Tutorial:

"I strongly encourage you to get Nanni’s ship add-on. An alternative to his fix is one provided by Pen32Win.
He has a set of replacement DP files for download at
www.sim-outhouse.com (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/). These correct the “sailing north”
problem as well as changing the way AI aircraft attack ships, pretty advanced stuff."

Of course this is for your stock ships.

[Talon]

Through the years I have sunk the stock carriers with 1 x1000lb bomb at times.I have done the same with some of the carriers by Usio. In real life the carriers were tougher than you might think.Look at Hornet at Santa Cruz,she was struck by the Japanese and than topedoed by USN forces at the end of the battle.The Japanese finally had to torpedo her the next day to sink her. Yorktown another example.Bomb hits at Coral Sea,quick repairs and sent to Midway.She was hit by torpedoes and bombs and still afloat.3 torpedoes from a sub finally did her in.

Even the Japanese carriers at Midway lasted for hours before they sank.It was the fires and faulty damage control that did them in.

One lesson the USN learned from Coral Sea was to put Co2 in the fuel lines to prevent fires.The Lexington was lost because they didn't do this at Coral Sea and she blew up later because the gas vapors went thru out the ship and exploded.

So IMO the dps are pretty good for the stock carriers. But what do I know?Nothing about ships that's for sure.


Talon

[Shadow Wolf 07]

"So IMO the dps are pretty good for the stock carriers. But what do I know?Nothing about ships that's for sure."


LOL. I guess Collin should respond about how little he knos too! :salute: