yet another bouncer

[hurricane3]

I guess I'am not living right because I have more problems with planes that bounce on takeoff.
I just downloaded the BF 109B/D from Flightsim by AF Scrub and of course on the takeoff roll it acts like I'am applying the brakes and reapplying them. It bounces like crazy ,you can even hear the brake squeal and see the dust fly.
I assume it's a contact point issue ,so anyone have a quick fix?

[Dev One]

Some people seem to have this problem with my models, but I of course do not!!! Although I must admit that if someone reports a problem & I install it on my laptop, I can replicate it! Why? Dunno!
It does seem to affect some installations - try pressing 'y' (transition) & see if the model moves at all, if it does then try adjusting one of the vertical height values in the contact points part of the aircraft.cfg file. Sometimes though it can be the damping or the compression ratio - you will just have to experiment, but keep a copy of your original before modyfying anything!
HTH
Keith

[Sunny9850]

To the best of my knowledge the overall problem is caused by some modification to FS itself, I heard AFCAD, runway material modification etc. Not necessarily at the airport you are flying. Once the bug is in FS it is dang near impossible to get rid of. From then on if the aircraft is close to being bouncy on everyone else's systems it will bounce on the modified one.
We ran into that issue with the Connies that worked beautifully for all but one of our Team members...where she turned into a bronco.

Generally if the airplane sits still on the ramp and doesn't bounce there I start by modifying the damper rates or the overall suspension travel to soften the ride a little.
If you are not sure what column of numbers means what open the cfg file for one of the default Cessna aircraft. You will find the notes there, which is which.

Cheers
Stefan

[hurricane3]

Since I haven't a clue as to what numbers to change ,I'll leave well enough alone and live with the shimmy.The plane does sit still on the runway ,but I really don't feel like experimenting with numbers that I don't know about where to start.Thanks anyway.

[Sunny9850]

The numbers I was talking about are these (pulled right out of the 109BD zip: I would start by making the green numbers slightly bigger. Say 0.64000 and see if things get better.

[contact_points]
point.0=1.000000,-9.166667,0.000000,-3.133333,2165.354400,0.000000,0.563861,36.600000,0 .536530,2.500000,0.341479,5.000000,5.000000,0.0000 00,0.000000,0.000000
point.1=1.000000,7.250000,-5.416667,-7.153333,2165.354400,1.000000,0.563861,0.000000,0. 542039,2.500000,0.867589,3.500000,3.500000,2.00000 0,0.000000,0.000000
point.2=1.000000,7.250000,5.416667,-7.153333,2165.354400,2.000000,0.563861,0.000000,0. 542039,2.500000,0.867589,5.000000,5.000000,3.00000 0,0.000000,0.000000
point.3=2.000000,0.000000,-18.500000,0.000000,1181.102400,0.000000,0.000000,0 .000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.0000 00,5.000000,0.000000,0.000000
point.4=2.000000,0.000000,18.500000,0.000000,1181. 102400,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.00000 0,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,6.000000,0.000000,0.0 00000
point.5=2.000000,-14.166667,0.000000,-0.500000,1181.102400,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0. 000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,9.00000 0,0.000000,0.000000
point.6=2.000000,9.250000,0.000000,-1.916667,1181.102400,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0. 000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,4.00000 0,0.000000,0.000000
point.7 = 5,7.14,0,-0.5,1600,0,0,10,0.4,2.5,1,0.2,0.2,4

And the explanation is here:

//0 Class <0=none,1=wheel, 2=scrape, 3=float>
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type
//14 Airspeed limit for retraction (KIAS)
//15 Airspeed that gear gets damage at (KIAS)

Since you likely just downloaded the AC from Flightsim.com or AVSIM the cfg file is probably still virgin stock so worst case scenario you simply have to pull that one back out of the original zip.
Careful experimentation is part of the fun of FS :ernae:

Stefan

[AndyG43]

A quick look at it in ACM shows the contact points to be ....... well, way out of whack; makes Itosan's look like models of perfection.

Having, unfortunately, some time on my hands I'll give this a proper look over tomorrow to see if I can get any better numbers (although I do have a website to finish for a certain Greek chappie first)

[Milton Shupe]

Since I have a head cold and not feeling well enough to model, I thought I too would look at this.

Andy was right on with his assessment as the FM is really off.

The reason for the bounce is because the contact points were about 6' forward of the visual model, and the CoG was generally well placed.
This caused about 50% of the weight of the aircraft to be on the tail wheel... not good. Should be about 20% on the tail wheel.

Anyhow, corrected the contact points, moved the mains toward center (they were about 3 feet too wide (but left them about 12" wider than the visual model)), decreased the suspension movement abit to stiffen them up (since there is no suspension animation), moved the CoG back to 25% MAC, moved the fuel tanks back inside the wings, changed the flaps-caused lift and pitch, the stall angle, corrected engine parameters so that the prop would turn faster than 1450RPMs (now 2150), added some Turbo boost, corrected prop min beta, corrected approach angle so you do not run out of trim, decreased rudder authority a bit, added a flight tuning section in case you want to tweak it, etc.

Anyhow, she is improved although still a bit rough.

Try it, and if anyone wants to take this mod further you are welcome to. It needs more than I have desire to fix. :-)
Trim is too course but useable, pitch moments are okay but you can feel that there is too much damping, she is stiff, not fluid.

Still a large improvement and very flyable. It's really a nice low-poly model and would make a good AI model.

Andy (or anyone), feel free to tweak it further or go your own way.

[hurricane3]

Well after much experimenting I finally got this beast to fly with out bounceing on takeoff. First I tried to change the numbers in the config file which didn't look like the config file in Sunny's post. But I found the numbers that you said I change and went clear up to 70000 with no change.My numbers were off by one, for instance 0.536530 was 0.536531.
Anyway that didn't make any difference.
So I had a brainstorm and decided to try flying from some strips in Germany,both paved and unpaved,and darned if it didn't takeoff without bounceing(unless I got off the runway which happens a lot with my CH pedals which are too sensitive)
So then I went back to Seattle and it took off without any bouncing or shaking.
So it must have to do with the scenery that I take off from,and once I take off from a strip that doesn't cause the shaking it doesn't shake from a strip it formally shoke and bounced from.
Go figure

[Milton Shupe]

You need to scrap that FM and try what I posted above. The issue is not scenery although some areas may be more sensitive to this aircraft's issues than others.

[hurricane3]

I swapped out the old config and air files and the plane now flys great. Takeoffs are bounce free. I thought I was on to something with switching airfields but your work on the new config and airfiles is so much better.
I don't know how you did it with a cold ,I know that must have been miserable.
The only thing and this seems to be the case with all your wonderful planes that have guns is i can never get the gun sound to work. They have the effects with flash and spent cartridges but no sound.

[Navtech]

Thank you Milton
Indeed first flight I believed that the fat Hermann was in the luggage bin .. and that the engine was sabotaged by some forced workers .... :icon_lol:
I was in half way to solve some of those problems (already had put a few "Popeye spinach" in the engine) .. when I read your post Just tested your tweak .. and seem's that fat Hermann and other are out of way :jump::applause:

[Milton Shupe]

Thanks guys; I am happy that it works better for you.

I don't claim any accuracy with that work; I simply corrected glaring errors.

If anyone wants to use that as a basis for further improvements, they are welcome to.

Have fun :wavey:

[hurricane3]

I can never or rarely get the sound of the guns to work on Miltons planes that are armed. Tried putting the wav file in the main sound folder and tried the aircraft folder but no luck. Any thoughts? I get the effects but no sound.

[Milton Shupe]

I can never or rarely get the sound of the guns to work on Miltons planes that are armed. Tried putting the wav file in the main sound folder and tried the aircraft folder but no luck. Any thoughts? I get the effects but no sound.


I have no clue, never tried to get an FS9 gun to work. All show, no go in FS9. :-)

[Cees Donker]

That's a far better fm! Thanks Milton! I goofed around with the panel cfg and adjusted the texture of the panel in the VC.

Cees

[Milton Shupe]

Thanks Cees. Oh, I din't look at the VC; did not know there was an issue there. LOL Head colds!

[Sunny9850]

Thank you for the updated FDE Milton. It is much improved if maybe a little too powerful now for the early 109. But that is easily tweak able. I was playing around with the AC a bit yesterday after I got home and noticed that the flap animation is not visible from the VC. Almost managed to crash the bugger while troubleshooting the flap deployment....which was happening but not visually confirmed :D
I think the late version E model from the same author had the same issue.

Of course that can't be fixed after the fact by anyone but the author....just wanted to warn fellow pilots of that issue. The VC and gauges do need a little work IMHO to make it fully functional such as installing a VSI.

Cheers
Stefan

[Cees Donker]

Here's what I came up with so far.... Back up the originals!

Cees

[Milton Shupe]

Thank you for the updated FDE Milton. It is much improved if maybe a little too powerful now for the early 109. But that is easily tweak able. I was playing around with the AC a bit yesterday after I got home and noticed that the flap animation is not visible from the VC. Almost managed to crash the bugger while troubleshooting the flap deployment....which was happening but not visually confirmed :D
I think the late version E model from the same author had the same issue.

Of course that can't be fixed after the fact by anyone but the author....just wanted to warn fellow pilots of that issue. The VC and gauges do need a little work IMHO to make it fully functional such as installing a VSI.

Cheers
Stefan

As I said, I only fixed some obvious things to get her flying ... gave her some boost too that you can drop. The main issues were beta min at 25 and prop rpms limited to 1500 by the prop ratio, so I changed those to 15 and 2150 respectively just to get some speed out of her. She showed a supercharger or turbocharger with no boost and no representative MAP so I added some to pick up the takeoff roll and cruise speeds. Please change as you wish

[Sunny9850]

I did not mean this as negative or criticism. Simply an observation relative to the documentation I have found on the Bf-109 series.

Stefan

[Milton Shupe]

I did not take it as such; just wanted to clarify that my role was to get her going, did not have the data or time to focus on an accurate flight model (as I mentioned in an earlier post).

[Sunny9850]

OK...just wanted to clarify as well. Far be it from me to want to step on your shoes after all the great gifts you continue to give to the community.

:ernae:
Stefan

[Cees Donker]

Here's a two bladed prop!

Cees

[hurricane3]

I noticed after applying the fixes by Milton ,on the takeoff roll you can see two slices of runway showing through the cockpit on the takeoff roll ,they go away after liftoff. Not a big deal ,but what causes this?

[hurricane3]

I forgot to say this happens in the VC mode

[Milton Shupe]

Screenshot please. Are you talking from Spot view, 2D cockpit, VC?

EDIT: Okay ... screenshot please. Is this with Cees panel updates or the original? I do not see any issues with Cees' panel update.

[hurricane3]

I applied Cees update but this was before I did that.It was after I applied your update ,and pretty sure it only happens in VC. You get the same effect if a flying boats cockpit is below water level.I was told it's just a bug with FS9.
I don't know how to make a screenshot, but on take off there are narrow bands left and right that flash and you can see the runway thriugh them It's nothing I can't live with ,you have your hands full with the Grummans , so don't worry about it.

[Milton Shupe]

Not seeing that here sir ... sounds like a video issue of some sort.

To make a screenshot, (If you do not have "Snapper", a freeware download), simply:

1. Press the "Print Scr" key (This copies to the clipboard)
2. Open MSPaint or any graphics program, and Click Edit, Paste.

There you have it.

Name and Save that as a "files of type" .jpg file.

Now come to SOH, create the message, Manage attachments, add attachments, browse to file and upload it.

Save the message and post it.

[hurricane3]

I'd say maybe it's my driver or some other vidio issue but of over 400 planes installed the only other one's are the Lohner flying boats that do this . I was told by someone here that was because of a bug in FS9 caused by part of the cockpit being below the water line ,which of course can't be the case here.
The plane sit's normally from outside and this flashing runway thingys only show on the takeoff roll,I imagine they would show when taxing also,but since this computer is so old and I have to shut down backround programs by going to msconfig and rebooting I don't really feel like doing that now.
Thanks for your concern,I'am sorry I bothered you with it (not being scarcastic) .My bet is for some reason on my computer it's a contact point thing and I though maybe it would be an easy fix.I don't have MS paint or snapper and don't realy feel like messing with those now my anixity and depression problem are getting the best of me today ,so don't worry about it.
Thankyou so much for trying to help.

[hurricane3]

I took a deep breath and flew some without shutting down backround programs ,made 3 flights before I lost my textures. Three were dirt strips from Germany and there were no flashes with the runway showing. Tried the default Seattle but by then I lost my textures so couldn't be sure if it did it with that airport or not. Must only happen with certain airports or maybe it fixed it's self, anyway thats all I can handle for now ,thankyou sir for you help.

[Cees Donker]

I'm not seeing it here either. A screenshot would be helpful.

Cees

[Cees Donker]

Where are Milton's and my improved files for the 109?


Cees

[Milton Shupe]

Where are Milton's and my improved files for the 109?


Cees

Strangely enough, I think I still have all those changes.

I am attaching the FM and the panel.cfg here. See if this is what you are looking for.

[Cees Donker]

Oooh! Here are the attachments! I replied to your PM that you forgot them!:biggrin-new:


Thank you!

Cees

[Cees Donker]

Milton,

:dizzy:I get a php file only, no zip, so there is nothing to be downloaded. :pop4:Can other people download these files?

Cees

[Milton Shupe]

Milton,

:dizzy:I get a php file only, no zip, so there is nothing to be downloaded. :pop4:Can other people download these files?

Cees

I can download them okay.

PM me your email address and I will send that way.

[Duckie]

Milton,

:dizzy:I get a php file only, no zip, so there is nothing to be downloaded. :pop4:Can other people download these files?

Cees

Hey Cees, go ahead and download the php file then change the php extension to zip and that should do it. Works for me.

Steve

[Tom Clayton]

Cess, just out of curiosity, what browser are you using? I'm on IE10 and I get a zip file just by clicking the links.

[Milton Shupe]

Just FYI, I sent the files to Cees by Email yesterday. :-)

[Tom Clayton]

I figured as much, but it will be handy to have the info as a reference if another user has the same problem.

[Milton Shupe]

I figured as much, but it will be handy to have the info as a reference if another user has the same problem.

Yes, I understood that intention but just wanted to let everyone know he now has the data.
Thanks

[Duckie]

Cess, just out of curiosity, what browser are you using? I'm on IE10 and I get a zip file just by clicking the links.

Tom, don't know what Cees is on, but I'm on IE11, Win7 64 Home, and I get "php" extensions for all "zip" file downloads posted in a forum thread like the one's Milton posted here. I think it may have something to do with the way IE11 interacts with this forum. I don't have this issue when downloading from the library or from any other web site or repository.

Here's what happens: I click on either of the attached zip files (ie "Bf109b-1.zip") I get the standard "save" file scrip but the file's "save" name is "attachment.php". The file will download with contents intact as is, but to open the file you must change the extension to zip. A couple of options are:

1. Just save as is then change the extension to zip, open the zip and all contents are there.

2. To preserve the original zip file name you can do a "save as" and change the name of the download file to match the actual file name with results the same as no1.

[AndyG43]

Tom, don't know what Cees is on, but I'm on IE11, Win7 64 Home, and I get "php" extensions for all "zip" file downloads posted in a forum thread like the one's Milton posted here.

Same here (although I use W7 Premium). I usually just copy the link address and downloaded it in Chrome, but it is moderately annoying.

[Tom Clayton]

Thanks. I had a feeling it might be an IE11 issue. I haven't tried it yet, but I have a feeling that using Chrome or Firefox might get the downloads correctly, but I like using IE for forums.

[Cees Donker]

Been away to Antwerp for a couple of days! Hence my 'radio silence'!:running:

I use IE11 as Tom presumed.

:wavey:

Cees