You can keep Rising Sun...seriously flawed.

[brettt777]

So I went through all the install process for PTO Rising Sun and actualy got it to work no problem. The problem is there are some serious flaws in the flight models. I try to dogfight against an A6M2 Zero (set on rookie) in an F9F Panther that I installed; a jet with 20mm cannons. If I'm not screaming along at 400 kts +, he can keep up with me and out turn me, out shoot me, everything. This Zero is a plane that tops out at just over 300 kts and 5 g's, and it's out flying a jet that can do 500 kts and alot more than 5 g's! Really??? And trying to fly off a carrier, forget it. The Zero's are on the ship and tearing up my plane (F8F or F9F) before I can get it started. If I do manage to get off the deck, the Zero turns circles around the Bearcat and outruns it. That ain't gonna happen. Ridiculous. I certainly don't claim to be the best sim pilot in the world but I can hold my own; it's not like I don't know how to fly and dogfight. Anyway, y'all can have it. A total waist of hard drive space IMO.

[rocketred]

please note this a trial for furthert development to my understanding , they ...being the developers have indicated its still in work in progress , so yes there will be flaws and all , but please its a great start to achieve there goal , pearl harbour , dont forget cfsd3. eto. maw all once where at a starting point

[HouseHobbit]

Hi Brettt,
The RS team is preparing a Hotfix for the Beta Rising Sun, it will address several issues with the Beta released..
This Is a WORK in Progress, and many items will be developed and corrected as this is being set up by the RS team

I haven't had any of the issues with my Zero's in the RS Beta you spoke of, and I am puzzled by this..
The Zero's in the set up I have fly very true to the real model..
So this is very surprising to me..
Don't give up on the Great work done by many Masters in the RS expansion, if you wish PM me with your e-mail
and I will be pleased to send the Zero in question from my RS Beta set up..

Here are shots of me shooting down A6M2 zeros with a P-40 and P-36 fighters at Pearl, so I am puzzled by your problems..

[hairyspin]

That sounds like a fairly typical comparison between early jets and fighters of nearly the same period. You have to fly your aircraft to its strengths, not its weaknesses and many of us, me included, make the same mistake of mixing a heavy, fuel-laden aircraft with an agile, lightweight opponent in a turning fight.

The air is three-dimensional and aircraft that dive and climb better than turn should be fought in diving and climbing fights - boom & zoom combat. Bf109s and especially Fw190s fought that way, Hurricanes could out-turn and therefore out-dogfight them but could not hope to match them in a B&Z fight. F9F Panthers would have lousy low-speed acceleration (like all the early jets) but terrific top-end speed and would probably dive and zoom-climb much, much better than Zeros. Bearcats were designed to out-climb almost anything else flying and intercept incoming kamikaze aircraft: the F8F held the record for rate of climb from ground to 10,000ft against even the early jets!

So what am I saying? Learn to fly and fight to the strengths of your aircraft and avoid its weaknesses. That's what the original pilots did, even if it meant changing tactics according to the opponent: Spitfire IX pilots could dogfight with German fighters and get the best of it, but only a boom&zoom fight would get the better of the agile Japanese fighters. Once the Allied pilots learned that, they began to regain air supremacy.

[hairyspin]

One other thing! A lot of the flight models are designed to be flown at the 'Hard' setting - you'll find this under 'Realism' in the sim. They fly lousy at 'Easy' but you'll have to take this up with the original flight model builders if this doesn't suit. They used to be found at AvHistory, of fond memory....

[HouseHobbit]

That sounds like a fairly typical comparison between early jets and fighters of nearly the same period. You have to fly your aircraft to its strengths, not its weaknesses and many of us, me included, make the same mistake of mixing a heavy, fuel-laden aircraft with an agile, lightweight opponent in a turning fight.

The air is three-dimensional and aircraft that dive and climb better than turn should be fought in diving and climbing fights - boom & zoom combat. Bf109s and especially Fw190s fought that way, Hurricanes could out-turn and therefore out-dogfight them but could not hope to match them in a B&Z fight. F9F Panthers would have lousy low-speed acceleration (like all the early jets) but terrific top-end speed and would probably dive and zoom-climb much, much better than Zeros. Bearcats were designed to out-climb almost anything else flying and intercept incoming kamikaze aircraft: the F8F held the record for rate of climb from ground to 10,000ft against even the early jets!

So what am I saying? Learn to fly and fight to the strengths of your aircraft and avoid its weaknesses. That's what the original pilots did, even if it meant changing tactics according to the opponent: Spitfire IX pilots could dogfight with German fighters and get the best of it, but only a boom&zoom fight would get the better of the agile Japanese fighters. Once the Allied pilots learned that, they began to regain air supremacy.

Bravo.. Hairyspin, you hit the nail on the head, The f9f panther is NOT a Dogfighter.. If you are trying to dogfight a Zero in a F9f panther the Zero will always win..
the Boom and Zoom and method is best when using the early jets, The advantage in speed will be what helps you survive..
I fly Jets often in the DPC Korean expansion and I know Never to dogfight a prop aircraft, but to use the speed advantage on them..
Against other jets I will turn with them, since they all turn so badly anyway..:icon_lol:
Bravo..:applause: :applause: :applause:

[brettt777]

Yes I understand the Panther is not a dogfighter. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday (it was the day before actualy). But the Bearcat was a dogfighter and was much more powerful and agile than pretty much anything else in WWII. The specs for the Zero that I was going against said it topped out at just over 300 mph and only 5 G's. It had less than 1000 hp, but it can outrun a Bearcat (2000+hp, over 400 mph)? In the Panther, I had to be doing at least 400+ to outrun the Zero and then just barely. No, this isn't something I'm doing. Okay, so it's a beta. You are correct and I do apologize. The last thing I want to do is put down anyone that has the talent and puts forth the effort to develope a mod that we can all enjoy. I certainly don't have the time or talent to do anything like that. But that being said, I know what I saw. I don't have the same issue with DPC CFS3 Korea mod or most of the other sims I fly.
I guess I'll try it again when I have more patience and ability and maybe the mod is updated.

[rocketred]

again may i point out this is early in the release as beta and many more updates patches and better set up - instructioins and understanding will be likely put out for win 7 ....

i was was taught , "rome wasnt built overnight " and things worth waiting for are worth more than there weight in gold when , revised and updated to the point , like eto was ....whihc now is a most talk about and well moded sim , and is freeware ....


not arcade like


hope you will enjoy and be patience


joshua

[HouseHobbit]

Yes I understand the Panther is not a dogfighter. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday (it was the day before actualy). But the Bearcat was a dogfighter and was much more powerful and agile than pretty much anything else in WWII. The specs for the Zero that I was going against said it topped out at just over 300 mph and only 5 G's. It had less than 1000 hp, but it can outrun a Bearcat (2000+hp, over 400 mph)? In the Panther, I had to be doing at least 400+ to outrun the Zero and then just barely. No, this isn't something I'm doing. Okay, so it's a beta. You are correct and I do apologize. The last thing I want to do is put down anyone that has the talent and puts forth the effort to develope a mod that we can all enjoy. I certainly don't have the time or talent to do anything like that. But that being said, I know what I saw. I don't have the same issue with DPC CFS3 Korea mod or most of the other sims I fly.
I guess I'll try it again when I have more patience and ability and maybe the mod is updated.
Hi brettt777,
I didn't mean to sound like I was questioning your ability.. But if I can help out with this I would be pleased to..
I know very well the attention to detail the Masters who build this have put into all of this..
They are perfectionists in the extreme.. And I trust their abilities..

I build missions and have no skills other then on occasion getting a mission package out that works..
But I do know very well the Masters who model these aircraft have skills and ability I can never know..

I am truly puzzled by this problem with your Zero..
If I can help out I would be very willing to do so..

[hairyspin]

...But the Bearcat was a dogfighter and was much more powerful and agile than pretty much anything else in WWII...

Hmmm. The F8F climbed like an angel with his robes alight, but its wing loading was nearly twice that of an A6M2 Zero: both had almost the same wing area but the Zero weighed around 5300 lb loaded versus the Bearcat's 9600 lb. That's a lot of weight difference in a dogfight and a real disadvantage to the Bearcat: better to fight B&Z and use the power and climbing rate advantage.

However, aircraft performance is a never-ending topic for debate and one of the things that make this old combat sim so interesting. Blue skies, Brett!

[Pat Pattle]

Intreresting points Brett, there are issues with the way cfs3 handles ai and what you're seeing maybe part of it. There are tweaks around to get around it. Please dDon't trash a complete install for the sake of a small problem like this though! :)

The great thing about the M$ series of sims is that of you don't like something, you can (usually) change it. If you suspect the Zero FM then there are chaps here who'll help to correct it, or search around for other Zeros's from other M$ sims such as fs9 and try substituting their FM's, they may work.