Franz Stiger's Bf-109

[Human Drone]

Hey, gang, slightly off-topic, but I don't know a better place to get an answer. My brother-in-law and father-in-law are cooperating on a Bf-109 model for my office/"cockpit". He's asking me about a paint scheme, and if possible I'd like to do an aircraft flown by Franz Stigler, the German pilot who came upon a badly shot-up B-17 with several dead and wounded crew members; he motioned them to land, but when they didn't, he escorted them as far as the channel/North Sea, saluted the pilot, and broke away. He said of the incident (for which he could have been shot) that he couldn't shoot the plane down, it would be like shooting a man under a parachute. Link http://www.valorstudios.com/Franz-Stigler-Charlie-Brown.htm# and more details at Snopes here: http://www.snopes.com/military/charliebrown.asp

If you could help me out with a paint scheme, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Tom

[dewoitine]

Here is a moving story deserving of knights of modern time.
It is the story witch I did not know.
Value and greatness !

[dewoitine]

I found this picture

57332

[grizzly50]

Human Drone, there are lots of listings here. You might find it: http://wp.scn.ru/

[Human Drone]

Thanks, grizzly50, that's a lot to peruse. I was flying with my brother-in-law last night - I have such a sweet set-up now, everything maxed and still getting 60 fps - and marveling at all you guys have added to make ETO what it is - and then BAM! - got shot down again. So it was a "comfort" to read these words about Lt. Stigler (from the first link in my OP):


Franz was credited with 28 confirmed victories and over thirty probables. He flew 487 combat missions, was wounded four times, and was shot down seventeen times, four by enemy fighters, four by ground fire, and nine times by gunners on American bombers. He bailed out six times and rode his damaged aircraft down eleven times.

He bailed out SIX TIMES! Sheesh, at what point does it get so routine that you just throw the canopy open and sigh, "Not this again..."

And frankly, Lt. Stigler flew many, many aircraft, including the Me-262 and also flying boats, so he was a very versatile pilot. Dewoitine, I din't have a side shot, so you may just a have found what I need. But I wanted to try to get the markings of the aircraft he was using at the time, and you don't know what liberties the artists have taken.

Thanks again,

Tom

[ndicki]

I have a week's holidays coming up. I think I'm really the one you need to talk to... Any decent info about the aircraft - type, markings, etc?

[Human Drone]

Well, thank you sir! I am indeed in the company of my betters. Apart from the artistic renderings shown in my first link above and the picture posted by dewoitine, the text at the first link above says this:


The Berlin Bear painted onto the forward cowling of Franz’s plane was the mascot of Franz’s squadron.... (snipped some) and - Franz’s fighter carried his personal nose art that showed his wife’s name, Eva, next to an apple with a snake weaving through it. Franz’s rudder bore 25 victories marks, amassed prior to December 20, 1943. That day, in his encounter with “Ye Olde Pub,” Franz saw his brother's pleading eyes in faces of the B-17 crew and realized he had almost walked the same path as his brother's killer. During the next year and four months of fighting, Franz flew in the desperate defense of Germany. While he would shoot down further opposing aircraft, after December 20, he stopped adding victory marks to his rudder.

Well, you didn't need all that text, but it's touching... There is a high angle view of the "Eva" & apple/snake at the first link in my OP, let's see what I can do here...

Here is info on his assignment, presumably covering the time of this incident:


Franz transferred to Bf 109 fighter aircraft upon learning of the loss of his brother August, who died piloting a bomber shot down over the English Channel. Franz flew combat in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, and Western Europe. He served as a Squadron Commander of three squadrons (Numbers 6, 8, and 12, of JG 27) and twice a Wing Commander, all flying Bf 109 fighters.

Attached are graphics from that site, for reference, as well as a third image I picked up form somewhere a ways back that shows the -109 with the whirl on the propeller cone. I'm not sure how accurate that image is, as the B-17 was flying on only 1 engine at the time of the encounter. I'm also not sure of the variant of the -109 he was flying at the time.

& ndicki, please don't trouble yourself too much, though it might be a fine addition for the library; my purpose was for a balsa-and tissue model that will hang in my office. Gee, though, that would be a neat skin... <scratches chin>

Much thanks, though, kind sir for whatever help you can provide! :salute:

Tom

[ndicki]

It's a basic G-5 or G-6, probably G-6 although you can't tell for sure without seeing the starboard side. I should be able to manage something fairly convincing, assuming my Bf109G templates are still readable! As it'd be simply rebadging an existing layered skin, it's no trouble.

[Human Drone]

I just found this picture from 4 months after the encounter. It identifies it as a G-6. As he was shot down 17 times, this may not be the same plane, but the victory markings are on the tail, at least.

Thanks again!


Tom

(Beautiful fraulein is a bonus...)

[Human Drone]

And more, here is a pic of a model signed by Stigler, as well as closer view of an artist rendering of the starboard side. Note, thought, that the B & W photo in my last post above specifically mentions a white rudder as indicative of something.

Tom

[ndicki]

Interesting - he should have a green fuselage band by that date, but doesn't. They were admittedly painted on rather unenthusiastically - theoretically ordered in January 1944 or so, but it took a few months before everybody in JG 27 had them. The rudder is white and shows he's a Schwarmfuhrer, I agree. Otherwise, standard RLM 74-75-76 paint job. The only thing I can't do is the spinner spiral - the model doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

[Human Drone]

Well, two things:

1. The encounter took place Dec 20, 1943, so the green band hadn't been ordered yet.
2. The spinner spiral isn't shown in all pictures, so maybe his didn't have one?

Question: What's a Schwarmfurher? But see, that's why I asked here: Y'all know the history so much better than I do. Kudos t you!

Tom

[ndicki]

True enough for December 1943 at the time of the encounter, but as the photo is from April 1944, then he should have by that time. Just being boring and tech-y.

A Schwarmfuhrer is a flight commander - a Schwarm is two Rotten... Or pairs.

http://www.geocities.ws/jagd3udet/FORMATIONS2.html

[Human Drone]

Thanks for that. Yes, I didn't know whether you were referring to the B&W photo or the artwork/model with regards to the green stripe. I'll be checking out that formation & tactics link as well - there is a reason for my screen name, I'm not exactly an ace...

Best,

Tom

[Human Drone]

Another update. John Shaw's painting of the scene shows both a white spinner and rudder. http://www.libertystudios.us/painting/a_higher_call/ Would a flight leader have a white spinner as well?

I've emailed him asking if he would be willing to share his source for Lt. Stigler's personal mark - an apple & snake, with "Eva" above it. We'll see what happens there. I could then make decals or hand paint them onto the model.

Best,

Tom

[ndicki]

The spinner is basically meaningless at this point - black, white, black with a white spiral, white with a black spiral or segmented black and squadron colour, or solid squadron colour... Here, the squadron (Staffel) colour is yellow, and the nose clearly isn't yellow! The spiral was first introduced in the late spring of 1943 on Bf109g-5/6 aircraft, possibly of JG 53, and became generalised during 1944. JG 27 and 77 picked up the habit early as they were based in the Mediterranean at the same time as JG 53. If the aircraft had served with JG 27 before it left the Med, it could well have retained a white spinner as also used in that area. Or not...

I would suggest that the artist is actually avoiding the sticky problem of having to represent the spiral in movement... And that a black-and-white spiral would be typically correct. Among other possibilities!

[Human Drone]

Your knowledge of these things is awesome! Meanwhile, I contacted John Shaw, who made one of the paintings (and met with both men, as I understand), and he graciously shared a better picture of the personal mark ("Eva", apple and snake). However, before I post it here, I want to get his permission, as I'd only mentioned using it on a (physical) model.

If you do the skin, we should package it up with the background story, which I can provide. Most sources don't mention it, but Lt. Brown was quite unnerved seeing the Messerschmidt flying alongside and was just waiting for him to unleash some new weapon or just finish him of conventionally. Lt. Stigler motioned for him to land, but Lt. Brown refused, because of the wounded on board. So Lt. Stigler tried to point him toward Sweden (neutral) which was only 30 min away. Lt. Brown, being wounded, didn't understand and instead was bound to try to get "home" to England (2 hrs. across the North Sea). Finally his nerves got the best of him and he ordered his engineer to try to get to the top turret. When Lt. Stigler saw the figure appear in the top turret, he (now famously) saluted and banked away. Note that he had just taken off in pursuit of the wounded craft and was fully armed. He could've responded in kind, and quite decisively, but didn't.

John Shaw's site was posted in one of my earlier posts, but here it is again, opened to the work at hand here: http://www.libertystudios.us/painting/a_higher_call/. I wouldn't mind owning a few works of his!

Best, & hope you get your graphics card sorted out,

Tom

[ndicki]

It certainly is a splendid painting! I quite see what you mean - one or two like that wouldn't go amiss on my walls, either!

I've vaguely started work on the skin for the Bf109G-6... Have you already installed my update pack? You'll be needing the guns, sounds, etc, from this one in due course:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?s=&catid=84&keyid=&nameid=&page=1&pp=15&sort=h

White 9, at the top of the page. If you haven't already got our 109s, there are maybe 20 or 25 different versions, from the G-2 to the K-4 and all points between.

And I'll bet that apple is a variation of the Staffel insignia of 7./JG 27...

[Human Drone]

Dear sir:

Are you one of the storied (former) members of the AvHistory 1% group? Man, them's is some fine air-ee-o-planes! ;) I don't know if I have them or not, as all I have since getting my new box and re-installing is the ETO 1.40 through the hot patch. I thought that included all the AvHistory stuff. I've been loathe to add anything more to it until I make up a way to log all my changes, plus I didn't know what any additional add-ons would do the the ETO stuff.

But I'll grab your update and see if it's already there, and if not, in it goes. And I'll see about getting you a PDF of the story to include in the package. Meanwhile, here's the personal mark. I haven't heard from him but this has to be public domain. He did say in his reply to me that his research indicated that the spinner was white. You said that was a good possibility, too, so...

And yeah, there are a slew of 109 variants! I think there were variations of the varinat's variations!

Best,

Tom

[ndicki]

Sorry to disappoint! But no, I'm not one of the AvH group, even if we have worked together on a few things. Gregoryp gave us permission to use the AvH 4.XX flight dynamics for the Bf109G-10 DCM, and Rene (Greycap RAF) took it from there. He's responsible for the FMs for the DL and DR2 series aircraft which fulfil the same 1% criteria as the AvH ones. Unfortunately AvH is no longer up and running...

We have not released our DL or DR2 for inclusion in ETO or any other package. If you follow the install instructions though, all our stuff is easily fully integrated into ETO and/or MAW - which I recommend highly if you haven't already got it!

I think we have quite literally covered every imaginable operational G and K subseries, bearing in mind that some were effectively the same but with different names... The G-10 DCM is my favourite. Goes like a rocket and (generally) carries a 30mm cannon. There are 6 different ones in the library if I remember rightly - DCM and DBM engines, with 20 or 30mm cannon, Erla, ME or WNF-built, early, mid and late-production types...


That apple is going to be helpful...

[rocketred]

and yes you have did your planes - are wonderful and excellent and beautiful , and fly with ease ... many tks

joshua

[Human Drone]

Gotta make this quick, i worked all night on a report I'd promised IRL to a customer and it's late. Here's one of the best write-ups I've seen so far:

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=dday_0033p1

Different sources mention Lt. Brown ordering the engineer to the top turret, but I can't find the one that says Lt. Stigler saw him and thought it best to bank away at that point.

& Good Glory man! How am I supposed to pick a good -109 from all those you've listed, with this engineand tha engine... You're a walking Bf-109 encyclopedia!

Best,

Tom

[greycap.raf]

& Good Glory man! How am I supposed to pick a good -109 from all those you've listed, with this engineand tha engine... You're a walking Bf-109 encyclopedia!

To put it short, as long as it says "DB605DCM" on the description you're set. Those are the machines with the best engine option and usually with a 30mm cannon, no matter if you pick a G-10 or a K-4 - the G-10 climbs (very) slightly better and turns slightly better but is slower while the K-4 is faster and smoother to fly. In reality they were just about the same aircraft with two different designations.

Having said that, they're all better than you might expect. The basic G-6 and G-14 series suffer from a power shortage but will still turn with any US aircraft the AI can throw at you as long as it's equipped with a realistic flight model, the Bf 109G is far better as a dogfighter than its reputation implies. When you get to the MW50 boosted G-6 and G-14 models, not to mention the G-10 and K-4 series you'll find that you can take on a P-51 on equal terms. The main difference between the DBM and DCM models is the power delivery, the DBM gives 1550 bhp on military power and 1850 bhp on MW50 while the DCM gives 1800 bhp on military power and 2000 bhp on MW50. The actual performance difference on emergency boost isn't that noticable but generally you'll have to use it more on the DBM versions, the DCM is powerful enough to do most of the fighting on just full throttle.

The entire series was about as confusing as it seems, it wasn't once or twice when we found that something that was thought to be a definite sign of a certain version was actually a possible leftover from building the aircraft with an older spec fuselage for example. No G-10 "should" have a hand grip behind the cockpit on the right side if we're talking strictly about how it was supposed to be built but in reality many of them were surplus G-6 fuselages with new engines and thus the grip remained. So yes, there indeed were variations of variations and pretty much every aircraft from the late G-6 series onwards was an unique mix of details.

[ndicki]

If you look at the port forward fuselage on DL_Bf109g-10DB_Yellow13, flown by OFw Heinrich Bartels, 15./JG 27, you'll see two maker's plaques; this isn't just parts produced originally for a G-6, but a completely rebuilt aircraft, originally wheeled out as a G-14. The other G-10s in the collection still have the theoretically deleted hand hold, while the K-4s, built with specific-to-type parts, do not... Note also that some G-10s have G-4/5/6/14 type wheels, and some have the larger K-4 type wheels! Basically, no two are quite the same.

[ndicki]

Back to real history.

In December 1943, Stigler was OC 6./JG 27, so a part of II./JG 27 as evidenced by the Berlin Bear on the cowling.

Anybody starting to scratch his head yet? They should be. Those illustrations are erroneous to say the least.

That squiggle behind the cross is complete rubbish. It's for III./JG 27 but by 1944 III./JG 27 tended to use the typical late war vertical bar anyway.

II Gruppe used the horizontal bar, as they were supposed to.

Yellow is however the correct Staffel colour for 6./JG 27.

The artists have based their representations on the picture of Stigler's aircraft later in the war.

[ndicki]

I think this is as close as it is possible to get.

The III./JG 27 squiggle I have dismissed above, and here the aircraft wears the horizontal bar of II./JG 27 which corresponds to the Berlin Bear on the cowling.
Then, after peering at all the photos I can find of aircraft of II./JG 27 after their return to Germany, I can find not one single picture of any aircraft with a white spinner. Again, I put this down to artistic licence combined with a lack of adequate research. Black, Schwarzgrun RLM 70 or black with a white spiral (which is not possible with this model anyway) come out as being the most probable possibilities.

Uploading once I've put the package together.

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/ndicki/Bf109g-6_Stigler_d.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/ndicki/Bf109g-6_Stigler_c.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/ndicki/Bf109g-6_Stigler_b.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/ndicki/Bf109g-6_Stigler_a.jpg

[gosd]

Very nice looking forward to add this A/C to my collection !:icon29::guinness:

[ndicki]

Thought I'd better do the rest. The B-17F really is not up to my usual standard, and is just a quickie I banged off using an ancient template I did years ago before I knew how to do any better. Think of it as a placeholder...

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/ndicki/Bf109g-6_Stigler_E.jpg

[dewoitine]

How ! Nice picture !
:medals:

[Human Drone]

Splendid! And I think you are right. the caption of the picture with the apple that I uploaded (and poster earlier as well) said it was taken in April 1944, and that the wavy line had replaced the horizontal bar as the Gruppe symbol. So you nailed it! I'm tickled, I'll try to get the write-up to you tomorrow. Would it be proper to credit John Shaw for giving us a hand with the apple etc, and in general for being a nice guy?

Thanks a million! :salute: :icon29:

Tom

[ndicki]

Would it be proper to credit John Shaw for giving us a hand with the apple etc, and in general for being a nice guy?

Thanks a million! :salute: :icon29:

Tom

Might as well - he did contribute some help.

[20MikeMike]

Thank you all for this thread love the info love the details
Oh and the a/c are great keep the 109's comming
Chris:guinness:

[Human Drone]

I'm pleased as punch myself. I couldn't get the write-up done today, but will try tomorrow. I think it's an important thing to remember. Err... I hope that skin's on one of thsoe nice, hot G-6's that you guys were talking about.

I was going agains 109's in QC last night in the Spitfire with the 6-bladed prop, and I had a dickens of a time getting any hits. Of course, what am I saying? Lt. Stigler flew 478 missions and had less than 30 confirmed kills, and he was one of the good ones!

Best,

Tom

[ndicki]

There isn't a Spitfire with a 6-bladed airscrew, unless you count the Seafire F.22/24, which doesn't exist in CFS3 anyway. The MkXIV and subsequent Griffon-engined types had 5 blades...

With a MkXIVe - the E-type armament is a bit more effective - you should be chewing the 109s to bits! As a pure dogfighter, the Griffon Spitfire outclassed every other piston-engined aircraft in the book in virtually every respect. The only thing you need to watch out for with 109s is the initial rate of dive, but you should be able to catch them up as you go down - if you go down. It is not a good idea tactically. Otherwise, while they're not the easy meat some say, they certainly don't have the edge on you.

You need to watch out for 190s though - their rate of roll is better, and when bounced from astern, rather than breaking in the horizontal, a good 190 pilot will flick-roll his aircraft through 180 degrees so he's upside down, and then dive at as tight an angle as he can. You'll lose him, but he won't be able to recover height and energy fast enough to be an immediate threat to you anyway.

Keep at it! Make sure you use the AI versions of the DL 109s as targets though - CFS3 does not add the fuel, ammo and crew to the weight used to calculate the flight dynamics of AI aircraft. Ours compensate to some degree for that by adding extra weight without changing the flight model.


I wish I had your computer though! My old P4 is no longer really cutting edge!

[Human Drone]

There isn't a Spitfire with a 6-bladed airscrew, unless you count the Seafire F.22/24, which doesn't exist in CFS3 anyway. The MkXIV and subsequent Griffon-engined types had 5 blades...


<Strokes chin thoughtfully...> You know, I wrote a program to post-process our vibration test measurements here at work, and one common problem is skipped points or other numbering issues - and when the program detects such an issue, it pops up a standard Windows error dialog with the message "Doofus 'ENGINEER' can't count!" Apparently this is oh-so-true... :redface:

And as for me "Chewing them up", well, I was just being honest picking my screen name... :redface: again. And while we're on the subject of blushing, did you notice I misspelled Lt. Stigler's name in the thread title? I wonder if anyone at the admin level could fix that?

The AI's seem to have it correct, though, they do seem to dive out of the picture quickly- as you said, I try to pick the "aftermarket" models in ETO to fly against. Probably IRL they'd then scoot for home, but constrained by QC, these poor drones just then hang around at low altitudes like plums for the picking. But thanks so much for the additional tips, it sure helps. My brother-in-law says we'd need to have a C-130 flying behind us to hold all the ammo we fire in one round of QC! I'm trying to work through the flying lessons in FSX, and I know all about the control surface functions, the aerodynamics of lift, all that jazz, it's just a matter of getting hands, feet and head together to actually fly. I pull up into stalls a lot, I try to turn too tight, my poor (AI) wingman must simply get lost!

So yeah, I'm real thankful for the new system - I'm 10 years from retirement, the kids are grown, we finally have a few sheckels ahead of us, and my old box was an Athlon 3200 with 2GB of RAM and an AGP 8x graphics card, the old parallel ATA 133 hard drives... I work from home some days, and I'm a happy now - I do stress analysis, and a problem that took 1 hr 45 minutes on my office machine solved in 6 minutes on this one, and 20 minutes on the fastest machine in the office.

So I hope you can get a new box soon. One thing I really love about this rig is the TrackIR - being able to look around at will is fantastic, and it takes that function off my poor uncoordinated hands! Plus you can look around a lot more than you ever could with the hat switch, as the TrackIR does all 6 types of head motion, so you can look up over the cowl, or get your head closer to the canopy to look straight down, etc.

Still, the difficulty of it all just makes me respect the fellows who actually flew these machines just that much more. Granted they had a slight control advantage in actually feeling the g's, etc, but still... criminee, I don't know how I'd get by without the tactical radar and the red/blue tags on the other planes.

Okay, I gotta go justify my salary. I'll get a write-up to you as soon as I can.

Thanks again,

Tom

[gosd]

Thought I'd better do the rest. The B-17F really is not up to my usual standard, and is just a quickie I banged off using an ancient template I did years ago before I knew how to do any better. Think of it as a placeholder...

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/ndicki/Bf109g-6_Stigler_E.jpg

When are you planning to release the aircrafts ? :icon_lol:

[ndicki]

I think the usual answer in flight simming circles is "Two weeks."

[Human Drone]

That'd apply to me. I got called out of town on an emergency outage and so I haven't been able to put the text together for you. Next week I hope!

Tom

[ndicki]

No hurry - I'm busy next week, so I won't have time in any case.

[Human Drone]

Real life has interfered badly - a 4 day trip to Orlando, another to Houston, and I'm headed back to Houston this afternoon. I have been barely keeping up, but I don't want anyone to think I've forgotten my little contribution, nor this fine skinning job by our friend here.

BTW, can GIMP handle dds files?

Best,

Tom

[Led Zeppelin]

BTW, can GIMP handle dds files?
I'm also interested by the answer of this question.

[hairyspin]

BTW, can GIMP handle dds files?

Yes, with the right plugin it can.

DDS plugin for Gimp (http://registry.gimp.org/node/70)

[Led Zeppelin]

missed that one, thanks for the link.

[Human Drone]

I'm sorry to delay yet some more, but real life is a bugger right now. My oldest daughter just lost her first baby. I will do this. I've D/L'd a lot of source material and should be able to give an accurate portrayal of the events of that day. I even found the crew of the "Ye Olde Pub" listed.

Best to all,

Tom

[middle]

What a great true life aviation history story...thanks.

[Human Drone]

Well, I've been doing some more research; as Nigel's research has shown, there is an error in the markings of the Stigler Bf-109 in the most commonly found paintings. But I have a 1/24th scale balsa model to paint & mark, so have been looking for a way to have those decals made -thought that would be easy in this day & age, I guess not!

Today's search, though, was for the story information. In the course of that, I found this (http://www.kitsworld.co.uk/index.php?CATEGORY=5&SUB=1&THISPAGE=1&RADIOSORT=4&PICFILE=202&STKNR=202&STRH=3808&ORDN=2444&RNZ=923614), decals for both aircraft in 1/72nd scale (warning - not suitable for work graphics rotating at top of page). I didn't know if that would help with the B-17 or not. It has the wrong markings for the Bf-109, unless all the builder is worried about is matching the paintings.

I just need time to compose here, & then I'll attache a PDF of the story as best I can put it together.

Best to all,

Tom

[Human Drone]

Me again. I've started composing but I just got sent to do a test near St. Augustine. I'm going to try to see John Shaw, who met with Stigler and Brown, composed one of the paintings made of the incident, and graciously supplied us with a better picture of Stigler's personal "Apple & snake" emblem.

Hope I can pull it off, but you never know how these things will go.

Best,

Tom

[Human Drone]

Popping this thread; I've finally got some time and I'm painting the balsa model. I have the write-up started but not complete. 2 weeks, maybe?! :redface: