My Big Little City is in Trouble and I'm Angry

[erufle]

Please understand that I am a science teacher in Wichita, Kansas and, to a degree, I am looking from the outside-in . . . and I'm angry, very angry.

After 80 years in Wichita, Boeing has decided to shut down their operations here and that makes me angry. It's happening HERE! Here in the town that played a GIGANTIC role in defeating Japan during WWII. The people of Wichita and its surrounding areas did not play a huge role in WWII just because our boys were dying on the Pacific Islands but also because our women were building the B-29s that laid waste to Japanese cities. This is the town that exemplified Rosy the Riveter. Farming in Sedgwick County and surrounding areas still went on, but by day we were busy winning a war. That is not my only source of pride as a life-long Wichitan.

After 60 years, B-52s still fill the skies over our enemies and pock-mark their battlefields with bomb craters because Wichitans (and others) kept refitting the worlds greatest bombers extending their service life to . . . damn, can you believe most of those still in service are 50-years-old and not expected to be retired anytime soon? But, I'm so angry with Boeing because they didn't even have the guts to say why they pulled out. And, all this after Kansas politicians put up a huge fight to help Boeing wrestle the new refueling tanker contract away from Airbus, after which, Boeing promised Wichita about 7200 new jobs. What are the words you call people who do things like that? I'm angry. This is not the Boeing of previous generations.

And now, the military has given Wichita the finger again! They informed Hawker-Beechcraft that they will not be allowed in the bidding for a new lightweight ground support aircraft. Again, no reason why except to say that they will be built in Brasil. Really! An American warplane will be built in Brasil, . . . and you are not allowing us to bid on it, . . . nor are you giving us any reason why? I'm angry. Brasil is a great country, but I have a right to sound nationalistic. I truly believe in a world economy, but I sound nationalistic because this is an aircraft that is meant to protect America and not Brasil. If Brasil also needs such an aircraft they can buy one or build their own, and I know they are quite capable of doing so. Anyway, I'm now more angry than before.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this town of 380,000 has been successful because we make the finest aircraft in the world. I respect Seattle and Texas but I have no doubt that a Wichita-built aircraft is of the highest quality in the world, and many may not know why because this is not a huge city. You could ask a movie star, corporation, or millionaire with their own private Wichita-built jet. We probably have the most history in aircraft manufacturing. Before World War II there were somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty different aircraft manufacturers in this little burg. The reason is that the weather and terrain were perfect for flying. We can go for weeks (months in some cases) without any lasting low-level clouds and the winters are short. Also, back in the day, you could land almost anywhere (no mountains, forests, and few hills or cities to deal with). We are also the only city with a population of over 100,000 within 100 miles of the geographic center of the Continental United States. We also have all of the entertainment options found in places like Seattle or Kansas City, but perhaps on an expected slightly smaller scale. I believe that, as of a few years ago, we were still the largest manufacturer of private aircraft in the world, if not, then at least in the USA. In a few months, we will have the world's largest unemployed workforce of aerospace engineers, electricians, machinists, sheet metal, and composites workers. Our standard of living has long been under attack by the threats many aircraft companies make to move their plants to third world countries. Now, I KNOW we have to tighten our belts to compete, but can you really find a workforce anywhere near the quality of ours in these countries? Also, think about our servicemen flying aircraft NOT built by America's finest aircraft workforce. What would be the excuses given by our military officials if people the caliber of the Wichita work force did not build our military aircraft because quality cost a few extra dollars and the foreign-built planes that were bought turned out to be junk. If you are still not a believer think about how many complaints the Wichita work force may have received regarding those B-29s, B-47s, and B-52s. Would you like to make a complaint? You also cannot sell private jets and planes at the prices these aircraft command if they have a history of falling out of the sky. While I'm being angry you can think about it.

One of my three sons is an out-of-work aircraft worker, as is my brother-in-law who has nearly 40 years of experience as an aircraft machinist, so I'm not really looking from the outside-in. My 13-year-old son will also need a job someday, and we would like to keep our extended family together in this great but little big city where its nice to raise a family and the skies are not cloudy all day.

So I'm angry.

Airbus! Would you be interested in a well-maintained aircraft plant that once employed more than 30,000 workers and is in a city with the worlds most experienced out-of-work aircraft manufacturing workers? I think we can make a deal . . . cheap.

Then I won't have to be angry, but I'll still be less proud.

[SSI01]

Spent 14 months at Forbes AFB near Topeka, KS and visited Wichita a few times. Nice, friendly town.

Welcome to the 21st century.

[normb]

Sad isn't it? A great place, hard working people. Sold out for the $. And they looked you right in the face to get your congessional support and bailed...for the $. We're all in for it.

Beechcraft and Cessna send work to Mexico. We can't argue 'cause we are supposed to be playing on an even field...for the good of the company.

Those birds Beech won't build were destined for the Afganistan AF. Now we have to pay a foriegn country with our money to fund a foriegn air force? The midwest gets flooded, people loose everything, people are getting food from church pantries and we can still send all this money and jobs out?

Sad isn't it?

[rocketred]

global means . all old rules of economics and growth are out the window"


what was is not , what will be is here and moving



i see it through interent and business ......



im an example //// 12years ago i was out of work , i had limited skills , but a yest for life - was directed to online trading


said no , but then said only if i coul dlearn and earn without depending on a site to tell me ...bottom line , with alot of work and dilligence ... i am suceessful as my own system for shorting anf playing stocks , i need only me . and i even give back by allowing free service to some ....to say thanks universe ///


my point is think global and start to train your kin to think beyond the box.

[Sascha66]

... if the jobs stay in the country?

[Daveroo]

im sure ill get introuble for this...but i blame the unions for allways demanding more money ( wages) ,yes we need to be paid,,but people in other countries will work for less so the companies have gone there to build the items at a lower wage rate....also i partly blame an out of control insurance industry...its nothing more than legalised ( and governmentally protected) extortion,,,we pay into it through the nose ( and in certin situations we are forced to,like auto insurance,,,no insurance,,no drive,or youve broken the law)then you get into a collision..not even of your making..and they have "clauses" which protect them from paying out,,and they cancel your policy and you are out thousands of dollars....and most likely a car...

and dont even think of getting cancer...my now dead brother inlaw was accused by his insurance of having knowingly consealed his condition and they dropped his coverage.....HE WAS NOT SICK, and did not have cancer at age 18,,,he got sick and died at age 48...yet the insurance company won and my family just about went bankrupt.........and he...ofcourse still died

[stiz]

well for one thing .. the beech is still in prototype and isnt even ready yet ... the 2nd ... the tucanno is ready (and i belive is allready in service with some airforces) and could see service by the end of the year ... people keep asking goverments to make commen sense decisions, well they made one!! Whilst its sad that jobs are lost, at the end of the day the big aircraft companies get half the planes built out of the US now anyway then just ship in the pieces for final assembly! Nothing lasts forever and the aircraft companies are businesses at the end of the day.

[Prowler1111]

Just one pointer (and i totally agree with your sentiment), since i´m 100% sure you´re referring to the LAS program:
SUpertucanos are going to (if ever) built at Jacksonville, Florida, not Brazil, and 80% of the Supertucano is already US made.
So, Wichita´s loss is Jacksonville´s gain.
Like i said, i understand the sentiment, but if that contract will ever be signed for real, the jobs will stay in the US..and guess what, it might bolster Super Hornet sales to Brazil for their FX2 program, which means also, US jobs..

Best regards
Prowler

[beana51]

Sad of Course,so many families involved...in NY KODAK is closing,same effect...American Icons.!..American family's....At its peak, Kodak Co. employed 145,000 people worldwide.

[P51FAN]

well for one thing .. the beech is still in prototype and isnt even ready yet ... the 2nd ... the tucanno is ready (and i believe is allready in service with some airforces) and could see service by the end of the year ... people keep asking goverments to make commen sense decisions, well they made one!!
I wouldn't call it a "common sense decision" for two primary reasons:

1. The Hawker Beechcraft AT-6 is a modification of the T-6 Texan II, an aircraft ALREADY in service with the United States Air Force, and therefore would only require some adjustment to maintain; as opposed to having to retrain for a whole new aircraft.

2. Hawker Beechcraft was excluded from the competition before it even began. I have no problem with selecting the best aircraft; I DO have a problem with excluding them prematurely and without justification.

One other minor point, the Super Tucano would not be built in the United States. It would be assembled in the US, but my understanding of it is that it would be built in Brazil.

In a nutshell, this makes for the third major mistake for new USAF aircraft acquisitions in the past few years: the Joint Strike Fighter program, originally awarding the KC-X to Airbus/Northrop Grumman, and now this.

[andersel]

I'll probasbly get in trouble for this, too. Daveroo blames the Unions. and he is absolutely entitled to hold that opinion. But all the UUnions have ever done is to stand up for the rights of thier membership

Me? I blame naked greed. The greed of companies that are ONLY interestred in the bottomline and not in the intangibles of human existence. Like Patriotism and Human Rights and the needs of others and and, ultimately, just plain what is right rather than just what they, the big corporation, wants.

If blame can or must be placed, blame the love of money and profit above all else. And we know what the Bible says about the love of money.

LA

[AndyG43]

In a nutshell, this makes for the third major mistake for new USAF aircraft acquisitions in the past few years: the Joint Strike Fighter program, originally awarding the KC-X to Airbus/Northrop Grumman, and now this.

OK, I know this is not going to be popular, but ......

The KC-330 won MRTT twice; each time Boeing complained so eventually the requirements were altered & Bpeing won on the third occasion. Part of their undertaking was that they would send jobs to Wichita, which they are now reneging on. So you have a less capable aircraft and Boeing Wichita is beng closed; please tell me how that is the correct decision?

It was made clear that the LAS competition was for an off-the-shelf aircraft. Back in 2009 Air Force Materiel Command chief Gen. Donald J. Hoffman said "In an attempt to speed up the aircraft acquisition process, the service will likely select an in-production platform, at least for initial buys"; more recently it was stated explicitly that the requirement required a non-developmental solution - the AT-6 is plainly not a non-developmental solution. You make a valid point about fleet commonality, but the AT-6 is an unknown quantity, the Super Tucano isn't. OK, the development could go perfectly smoothly, but there could also be cost overruns or program delays; why take the risk?

I'll give you JSF, I would dearly love to see my country drop out of the program and buy more Typhoons, but that ain't gonna happen.

[Prowler1111]

For those twisted moves of fate, i ended being part of my current residence , Ecuador, FAE A-29 purchase team. I wont get into the details (mostly because i can´t) but i learned a lot about the A-29, and one of the things i learnt was that 80% of it´s components are made in the US already and shipped to Brazil for assembly..80%, that makes it "almost" a US made aircraft.3 years ago , the Hugo Chavez´s Venezuela tried to acquire 40 aircraft (that´s 5 more than the US, so it´s a bigger deal) to Embraer, US said NO and vetoed the purchase since..80% of the aircraft is already made in the US...catch my drift? It was designed in Brazil, they do lay up the basic airframe right there, but the rest..the rest comes from the US.You remember the JPATS competition? there were other countries design competing (Lockheed tried with an Argentinian designed aircraft, the IA-69 PAMPA)and part of the deal involved it being built in the US (which eventually was won by Beechcraft and the T-6II which happens to be a spin off of the Pilatus PC-9 which happens to be made/designed in Switzerland, which already lost the RAF trainer competition in the 80´s to the Short´s Tucano..yup..A-29´s daddy..).So, knowing where the T-6II comes from..what´s stopping the A-29 to become US new LAS aircraft?..so far...politics and greed IMHO..Sure..it´s fair to use people´s jobs in the matter as long as it helps the cause..
So T-6II 100% American?..read again..built in America, you betcha.
A-29 designed in Brazil..built in America?..let´s see how it unfolds..

All this IMHO..

But like i said from the beginning, i really understand your position and if it was mine, you can be sure it would be my very same reaction..since both variables are not met, i can see the whole thing from above and write down my opinion.Anyway, it´s always sad to see families left out of work, and traditions dissappear in the mist..it´s really sad.

Best regards

Prowler

[AndyG43]

Echoing Prowler's comment, I really feel for erufle and the problems that the people of Wichita are facing; to use your vernacular, it sucks. Britain may be about to lost the last vestiges of it's own military aircraft production capability, with the suggestion being mooted that production will be moved to India (presumably as part of an offset deal if India chooses Typhoon for the MMRCA deal); I know what that is going to do to communities in parts of England (we have seen it many times in the past few years with the closure of other industries), so I know understand the potential consequenes to Wichita.

[P51FAN]

It was made clear that the LAS competition was for an off-the-shelf aircraft. Back in 2009 Air Force Materiel Command chief Gen. Donald J. Hoffman said "In an attempt to speed up the aircraft acquisition process, the service will likely select an in-production platform, at least for initial buys"; more recently it was stated explicitly that the requirement required a non-developmental solution - the AT-6 is plainly not a non-developmental solution. You make a valid point about fleet commonality, but the AT-6 is an unknown quantity, the Super Tucano isn't. OK, the development could go perfectly smoothly, but there could also be cost overruns or program delays; why take the risk?

I'll keep my comments on Boeing's closure of its Wichita plant, and the KC-46 to myself.

Now, as to the AT-6; my understanding of it is that the AT-6 is to the T-6 Texan II, what the EA-18G growler is to the F/A-18 Hornet. Even I am wrong on that, let the competition conclude and then pick the Super Tucano if it best fits what the USAF is looking for.

[AndyG43]

Now, as to the AT-6; my understanding of it is that the AT-6 is to the T-6 Texan II, what the EA-18G growler is to the F/A-18 Hornet. Even I am wrong on that, let the competition conclude and then pick the Super Tucano if it best fits what the USAF is looking for.

No, you're pretty much spot on with that comparison; an even closer one is that the AT-6 is to the T-6, what the A-29 Super Tucano is to the T-27 Tucano - with the subtle difference that the AT-6 is still in the development stage and the A-29 is combat proven. Given another 6 months to a year the AT-6 might be proven to be a bug-free contender for this contract; and if I was a cynic I might suggest that is exactly what Hawker Raytheon's whole strategy is, to drag the process out long enough for them to promote it as off-the-shelf. But that would be wicked of me!! :icon_lol:

[Prowler1111]

No, you're pretty much spot on with that comparison; an even closer one is that the AT-6 is to the T-6, what the A-29 Super Tucano is to the T-27 Tucano

Just a slight correction..there is a bigger difference between the Emb .312 (t-27 Tucano) and the Emb.314 (A-29 Supertucano):

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/Prowler1111/Tucanos_differences.jpg

As you can see, the .314 is bigger, it needed to be that way in order to accommodate all the power supplies needed for avionics, weapons and ECM gear, it is a different aircraft, a COMPLETE different aircraft if you may.You can´t do with the .312 what you´re doing with the .314, it´s not a modification..
Best regards

Prowler

[AndyG43]

Sorry Prowler, I was being a little simplistic I realise; there has been a lot of growth, hence the Super Tucano. Always liked the Tucano, another one of those "if it looks right ...." aircraft.

But I guess you can see what I was driving at with my rather laboured point; it is ready now, the requirement is now.

And I will followP51FAN's example and keep any further thoughts on the KC-46 to myself. Still have the greatest sympathy for erufle & his friends and family though.

[redriver6]

admittedly this is from Embraer....but its worth a look...

http://www.builtforthemission.com/

[Prowler1111]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/Prowler1111/A-29vsAT-6.jpg

I think this sums it up..anyway..it´s all now in politicians hands


Prowler

[wombat666]

One point that appears to have been overlooked, who actually holds the majority shareholdings at Boeing??
The 'Global Economy' has become so convoluted that few, if any business operations are confined to a single Nation.
:kilroy:

[Devildog73]

The problem that all developed countries are running into is that in the USA we were created to be a representative democracy where if a business man failed in his ventures, he failed and was left with his shirt, trousers, and ability to go back to work and start over. Now, that happens to a degree for the common American, IF he can find a job. It is not true of the CEO, the banker, the politician in the USA. If they fail due to bad business practices, the Congress hands them common tax payer money to keep them from going belly up, which is the American way. The USA and the developed world would have been much better off IF the Congress had allowed those businesses and banks that are "too big to allow to fail", to fail. They should have gone belly up and their CEOs and CFOs should have had to tap into their own bank accounts to save them, not the people of the USA's bank accounts.

In the USA, once the Congress gave the international bankers on Wall Street tax payer bailout money, the bankers, in appreciation, gave themselves all massive bonuses into their personal bank accounts in the Caymans and Switzerland. They have no interst bailout money with no repayment schedule courtesy of the Congress of the USA on the backs of the common Americans. Some banks have never begun to pay back the "loans" and appears do not intend to pay back the "loans" from the American people. The 2% of the wealthiest Americans think that their ill-gotten money is going to insulate them from the anger of the rest of America. I suppose to an extent it will, because Americans eligible to vote do not. Because Americans are a forgiving people. Because Americans have become too lazy to go out and vote for somebody instead of the Party candidates. Because Americans have become impotent in politics. Because Americans that want to work are not allowed to work because illegals will do it for less and American business would rather hire illegals for cash under the table than support our own countrymen and our own economy on "main street". Because some Americans are too proud to flip hamburgers at Micky Ds to support their families in tuff times. Because those willing to work have lost hope and become apathetic. And, because Uncle Sugar has been slowly weening Americans off of working for a living and slowly turning the USA into a society of socialists consumer entitled people, instead of a society of working industrialist and farmers. We Americans have been slowly brain-washed into believing that we are entitled. We have been brain-washed over time to believe that we do not have to sweat and toil to get what we have. If we are out of work, Uncle Sugar will take care of us. We don't have to take a job out of our chosen field. We don't have to work for 2/3s of our former salary because Uncle Sugar will pay us that to NOT work. We don't have to grow food on our farms, Uncle Sugar will let us NOT grow food for CLP payments.

Hey folks, Uncle Sugar is bankrupt. Uncle Sugar has borrowed more money than Uncle Sugar can pay just the interest on. It is time for Americans to go back to work. Not willing to work=no food, no housing, no clothes, no ipods, no computers, no big screen TVs, no Xbox 360s, no $200 air jordans.
It is time to demand that members of Congress start representing the people and demand that Wall Street pay back the American people with interest or Congress will move to freeze and confiscate individual CEO, CFO, board member's bank accounts. Think it cannot happen? Try owing the IRS money. They can and will do it to common Americans, so they CAN do it to the leaches in our top 2% of wealth. It is time to start demanding the Congress make a fair tax system that taxes companies that take their industrial jobs to countries that pay pennies to virtual slave labor and children laborers. You want American wealth? Start bringing American jobs back to America. But no, Americans have become too lazy, too apathetic to demand such things. We will all go to the polls this election year and re-elect the same R&D Bozos into the US Congress and State Legislatures and expect different results.

What is the definition of insanity again?
(climbing down off my soapbox and back into my straight jacket)

[erufle]

1. There have been some improvements in the last week in Wichita because aircraft sales have been made by Bombardier and Hawker-Beechcraft. Both companies say they need to hire and to be honest there was a point, not long ago, in Wichita when the experienced aircraft workers were all tapped out. The companies were hiring any warm body they could find. In the long run Wichita will be fine.

2. I am a liberal union-lover, but I am convinced that the machinists union and the way Kansas (or Wichita) collects taxes did in Boeing Wichita. I say this because the local and state governments are, all of a sudden, saying there is so much more we can give in the way of tax breaks to lure jobs to Wichita. Looking at how Wichita has grown over the past two decades I must conclude it is true. There is a ton of money in this town but if all you ever see of Wichita is the city you wouldn't understand that. Wichita is shrinking population wise. Any family with and income over $50,000 has moved out into the county and, if they choose to do the maintenance, has a ranch house with 5 acres, maybe even a pony or two. Little towns in Sedgwick County like Andover, Derby, Goddard, Park City and others have grown exponentially. The real draw here is conservatism. If you are a hard-core conservative you would love the area. People move to these once small towns because they don't want to give up the small-town farming community mentality that still thrives here. There will always be a market for a place like this. Real estate is cheap here and we never really experienced a real estate bust. The conservative side of this area is hard for me to take and I have tried to move away. I went to grad school in East Lansing, Michigan a decade ago but I missed the eternal sun shine and the high standard of living Wichita enjoys so I came back to teach. When I say high standard of living I refer to the fact that $200,000 will buy you a home here that costs a million bucks on the west coast. Even the real estate in Lansing was much higher . . . and you get enough room for a horse or two. No, Wichita will be fine and experienced aircraft workers do not need to be paid $25 an hour or more to live a very comfortable life. This I have always known. The unions need to accept pay cuts or plants will close. Union lover or not, I accept this inevitable fact.

3. None of the above changes the sadness I feel over losing a factory that played such a vital role in WWII. I love my country and this misplaced liberal has no regrets about fire-bombing, then nuking, Japan into submission. I feel like saying "We did that. We won that war." Now its gone and the powers that be have no respect for what this community has done, and will continue to do, for it's country. Please follow the link below.
http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/b29.html

[AndyG43]

3. None of the above changes the sadness I feel over losing a factory that played such a vital role in WWII. I love my country and this misplaced liberal has no regrets about fire-bombing, then nuking, Japan into submission. I feel like saying "We did that. We won that war." Now its gone and the powers that be have no respect for what this community has done, and will continue to do, for it's country. Please follow the link below.
http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/b29.html

Totally get that. We have lost virtually all our aircraft manufacturing in this country, iconic companies and the airfields associated with them have vanished; De Havilland has gone & Hatfield is now an industrial park; the same with Vickers/Wisley, Blackburn/Brough, Hawker/Dunsfold & others, Avro/Woodford - so much of our heritage was built over for light industrial use. I guess it is progress, but it is still sad.

Glad to hear that there is some light at the end of the Wichita tunnel.

[wombat666]

Please take care to keep the 'National Politics' to a minimum in this thread [I quite understand this is very difficult] as this is not the place for such a subject.
Oso's Outhouse is the correct forum.
Thus far all concerned have been very civil and we do not need any aggravation via generalised political discussions.
Thank you in anticipation of your co-operation.
:kilroy: