Payware vs, Freeware.

[Helldiver]

"Perhaps us Freeware buffs should have a site on our own."

And who will set it up, fund it and maintain it HD?????????
Just go with the SOH list.
And a PS, please refrain from insulting people who support the commercial developers, choice is a wonderful option and it costs nothing to be polite.

:kilroy:

[Walter]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajp_sOJLki7mdEJiNWhQbmU2czVZUzU4YWgzYm1oV Xc#gid=0

Go here. This is a list of all the freeware native FSX aircraft that can be remembered.

Walter

[Roger]

Thanks Walter:ernae:

You know Bob when we go to all the trouble of creating a definative list of all the FsX freeware aircraft available and take the trouble to keep it updated and permanently stickied...and then I read a post like yours above, I wonder why the heck we bother...but then I know why, because we are dedicated to the world of simming.
At first I thought about kicking this thread to the dungeon but then I thought better of it and decided to leave it for all to read

Here's the thread... http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?58094-FsX-native-freeware-aircraft-list

[Rezabrya]

I am just curious as to how buying payware makes you have more money than brains?

[Kiwikat]

I am just curious as to how buying payware makes you have more money than brains?

If that was really true, what's to be said about payware developers... :X

:mixedsmi: :mixedsmi: :mixedsmi:


I'm glad people who want to buy better quality planes can do so. I'm glad people who want free planes can get free planes.

[stiz]

You know Bob when we go to all the trouble of creating a definative list of all the FsX freeware aircraft available and take the trouble to keep it updated and permanently stickied...and then I read a post like yours above, I wonder why the heck we bother...but then I know why, because we are dedicated to the world of simming.
At first I thought about kicking this thread to the dungeon but then I thought better of it and decided to leave it for all to read


think helldiver is talking bout summing different, and to be fair to helldiver he does kinda have a point. Its got nothing to do with stuff allready released, its when you come onto the forum one day, see a "*insert never done before favorite plane* is out!!!" thread, get all excited, then find it'll cost ya £25, tis kind of a downer. However i think 2 different forums for new freeware releases and payware releases isnt the right way to go, be easier to just *payware* or *freeware* in the thread title :)



If that was really true, what's to be said about payware developers... :X

more brains than money? :icon_lol:

[Francois]

I am just curious as to how buying payware makes you have more money than brains?

Brains - or rather the proper use of them - usually come with AGE ...... :icon_lol:

[Helldiver]

You guys are missing my point. I'm not talking to whats benn released. I'm talking about NEW aircraft. You have no way of knowing if there free or you got to reach deep into your pocket. Francois, at 83, I've got all the brains I'll ever need. In fact I'm losing some.
Roger, I could have figured that you'd find something in what I wrote to censor. You completely missed my point.

[CodyValkyrie]

Perhaps when a moderator stickies the post then, they could edit it with a title?

For example, "New bubble boy plane released!"

... would be:

"(Freeware) New bubble boy plane released!"

Just a thought.

[Roger]

...
Roger, I could have figured that you'd find something in what I wrote to censor. You completely missed my point.

Nothing censored in your post by me Bob. I guess one of the moderators found the combative tone to be a step too far.
The freeware FsX spreadsheet, which is updated on a regular basis will tell you if it's freeware or not. As to adding a freeware tag to a stickied post; that isn't difficult but invariably if the download address is SOH or Avsim, Simv, Flightsim etc. it will be freeware.

[mal998]

With all due respect to everyone,

When I read a thread like this one, I have to laugh! Flightsimming at SOH, the only place I know of where people can actually argue about nothing!

All very humorous. Thanks for the laugh.

Oh, oh, here comes the flak...better get my head down.

[Tim-HH]

I guess one of the moderators found the combative tone to be a step too far.

Fair enough. But I don't think it is the best manner to edit other people's posting without any notice.

Greetings
Tim

[N2056]

Having had nothing to do with editing posts I will attempt to get this back on track. :salute:

In his initial post Helldiver expressed a desire to have a separate area here for payware releases, or at least have a system to inform the reader as to whether a given release was freeware or payware.
Would it be reasonable if the party that originally posts about a product be expected to clarify that point in his announcement?

[TeaSea]

Seems reasonable to tag them some way, but then again, I am not an administrator or moderator of this site and would not presume to know how best to achieve that.

As a user of both payware and freeware, I appreciate what both provide and their respective shortcomings as well.

Personally, I presume items are payware until otherwise informed when it comes to aircraft models themselves. I assume re-paints are generally freeware, and that utilities are freeware. I can't say what has brought me to that point, it's just how my mind's working....

[ColinT46]

You guys are missing my point. I'm not talking to whats benn released. I'm talking about NEW aircraft. You have no way of knowing if there free or you got to reach deep into your pocket. Francois, at 83, I've got all the brains I'll ever need. In fact I'm losing some.
Roger, I could have figured that you'd find something in what I wrote to censor. You completely missed my point.

Perhaps a freeware spellchecker might be a good place to start.

[N2056]

Perhaps a freeware spellchecker might be a good place to start.

Uncalled for, and not something we tolerate. Nobody's perfect.

[warchild]

I think the bottom line on this issue is that at the present time, there are no procedures in place to allow for distinguishing between freeware offerings or new payware offerings. Though its true that most payware is quite obviously just that, there remains some as Helldiver discovered, that hide the payware part somewhere at the bottom of the page.. Currently, moderators have little control over presentation. We see a new post regarding a new release and we sticky it, but declaring whether a plane is free or pay is responsibility of the original poster. Since the only projects we are directly involved with are our own, we cant know whether a particular plane is going to cost money or not. Therefore it would be though not impossible, certainly quite time consuming and tedious to set up a secondary area, or even send out letters to various groups to discover if their new plane fits either category. Add to that that most moderators here have real lives, real jobs, real families, our own products to finish, already spend several hours a day logged in here, and you begin to see how cumbersome and unwieldy this could be. We need to be able to trust that OP's will make clear the status of the aircraft they announce ( whether free or pay ) but that wont always happen. However, We moderators are here to help maintain a civil and respectable climate and not act as a police force of marketing and advertising. I'm sorry.. Thats just the way it has to be..
Pam

[huub vink]

The option of having separate freeware and payware forums have been discussed on previous. For practical reasons like where do you leave a freeware repaint for a payware model, or should we move all threads about a model when the publisher decides to make one of his model available as freeware. And because most of our members are interested in both payware as freeware we have decided many moons ago that the forums would stay linked to the flightsim.

I was fully supporting this decision when it was taken and as I haven't seen any recent development to change my opinion, I'm still fully behind that decision.

Cheers,
Huub

BTW I would support a separate forum for WWII AXIS propeller driven aircraft...... :icon_lol:

[Roger]

Nothing censored in your post by me Bob. I guess one of the moderators found the combative tone to be a step too far.
.

To set this straight it transpires that another admin meaning to "reply with quote" clicked "edit" and consequently Bob's post was edited with the admin's reply. For this we can only apologise.
I will only actually edit a post if the contents are against the rules of the SOH and/or common decency.

[peter12213]

BTW I would support a separate forum for WWII AXIS propeller driven aircraft...... :icon_lol:

Second that! :wiggle:

[Meshman]

Would it be reasonable if the party that originally posts about a product be expected to clarify that point in his announcement?

As I look for new and exciting places to visit in Hawai'i (once I win the Lotto!), I check out the listings on Yelp. One of the header items is $, $$, $$$ depending upon costs at the store/restaurant/bakery/etc. Maybe we could come up with a similar form of tagging threads. But I guess we would all start debating Dollars or Pounds or Euros... :mixedsmi:

[Walter]

Second that! :wiggle:

Third that! :jump:

[Roger]

Ha ha,
Huub was joking but how many more FsX forums do we want...there's already three:sheep:

[ColoKent]

...we still love ya Helldiver!

Regards,

Kent

[wombat666]

You guys are missing my point. I'm not talking to whats benn released. I'm talking about NEW aircraft. You have no way of knowing if there free or you got to reach deep into your pocket. Francois, at 83, I've got all the brains I'll ever need. In fact I'm losing some.
Roger, I could have figured that you'd find something in what I wrote to censor. You completely missed my point.

Apologies HD, I was a bit knackered {very long weekend!} and hit 'edit' instead of 'reply with quote'.
No censorship intended, just a dumb slip of the finger.
Mea Culpa.
:173go1:

[Francois]

Francois, at 83, I've got all the brains I'll ever need. In fact I'm losing some.


LOLOL !! In fact, I wasn't talking about YOUR brains, HD :icon_lol:

[fsafranek]

Currently, moderators have little control over presentation. We see a new post regarding a new release and we sticky it,
That is not true at all. A recent CH-47 release barely got the time of day before the thread was hijacked and the product critiqued to the bottom of the second page. No sticky there. But you are right about products that mods are involved in getting a sticky right away.



... Therefore it would be though not impossible, certainly quite time consuming and tedious to set up a secondary area,
Such an area did exist about a year or so ago but then some developers felt they weren't getting enough free publicity so they asked to come back into the main area and that was the end of that.

Just observations.

And Mal998, I have to agree. :icon_lol:
:ernae:

[Rezabrya]

LOLOL !! In fact, I wasn't talking about YOUR brains, HD :icon_lol:

I sure hope you weren't talking about my brains then...

[warchild]

That is not true at all. A recent CH-47 release barely got the time of day before the thread was hijacked and the product critiqued to the bottom of the second page. No sticky there. But you are right about products that mods are involved in getting a sticky right away.


Such an area did exist about a year or so ago but then some developers felt they weren't getting enough free publicity so they asked to come back into the main area and that was the end of that.

Just observations.

And Mal998, I have to agree. :icon_lol:
:ernae:

Apologies on that. Some things get missed like the ch-47. Its not intentional, and its one of the reasons we have two moderators in here, when other forums only have one. But still, it's sometimes not enough to cover the full workload. Its bnot that we cant do the job, but, like you, we sit in our homes doing this work. My office being my front room, lends itself to a gazillion interruptions and distractions each day, with people checking in on me, dogs barking cats needing food/petting/a lap to sleep in etc. It's also where i do my dev work, which suffers from the same interruptions. Sometimes things get missed.

I presented the idea of multiple forums to the staff. to be honest, the developers never came into play. Rather it was the fact that the forum would be splintered up into a massive number of seperate forums, and just become a huge confusing mess which didnt serve anyone any good..
Pam

[Helldiver]

In the Fifties, I was very active in Ham Radio. I built my own CW 30 Meter transmitter and rearraged a short wave radio to catch 28 MHz. We worked on quad antennas, built our own towers, worked on double side band suppressed carriers and then single side band, long before the Services adopted it. I set up a Hamfest on top of a resevoir in Danvers where we tried to contact the U.K. on 2 Meters. We would grind our own crystals to rework war surplus SCR 522 recievers. Every Ham would work and help each other.
Then came the "Money Hams". They ruined ARRL. They had Collins 75-A4 recievers bought the best transmitters. added linear amps and brole the FCC 1KW law They bought the best Rohn towers and mounted the finest antennas money could buy. They would blast you right off your frequency. In short they ruined a great hobby.
It's the same thing that's happening to FSX. When the profit motive goes in, out goes the joy of flying Flight Simulator. I'm sorry, but I applaud Tim Conrad and people like them. They have thr right idea.

[Roger]

Interesting perspective Bob,
I too am a licensed Radio Amateur (G8VLR) although FsX takes up most of my hobby time these days. My great love was scratch building or converting ex-pmr gear to work on amateur frequencies. I remember talking (mobile via a repeater) to another amateur who was an agent for a Radio Ham store and in our conversation after I had described my home-built gear he said "home brew is fine if you can't afford the real thing." My response was that I could afford his gear if all I wanted to do was talk...but for me the pleasure was all in making my own gear...and making it work right.
However, I have a basic mobile phone, for emergencies, just phoning and texting...a £10 top up does me for a year, but this little gadget is a full duplex walkie-talkie that, via repeaters can link me to anywhere in the world. I couldn't build that in such a small space for love nor money!
To build a virtual aircraft is also way beyond me. So I rely on on our devs to feed my need, be it freeware or payware, they are all deserving of our respect!

[Mickey D]

I don't see it as "freeware vs payware". All of us devs started in freeware it's where we cut our teeth. There's no room for "purists" in any hobby, it takes all sorts and without both freeware and payware devs this hobby would die very quickly. I fully intend producing payware for a long while yet. Mainly to keep Frank supplied with Pontefract Cakes. :icon_lol:

[fsafranek]

Mainly to keep Frank supplied with Pontefract Cakes. :icon_lol:
Appreciate that. :icon29: Now I just need to find a more reliable source.
:ernae:

[warchild]

Actually, I got my start on the payware side of the community, working with Iris Simulations. I've since moved to a sort of middle ground where i develop for both payware and freeware.. You'll always get the best i can do with what time i have to work with, but, frankly, for the payware planes i work on, your paying for everyone else. I stopped charging a long time ago ( I hate billing and business crap ), but, considering the current condition o0f my cabinets and refrigerator, I wouldnt mind a lil income if only for a burger or two..

[Stratobat]

Hey Roger,


So I rely on on our devs to feed my need, be it freeware or payware, they are all deserving of our respect!

What happened to the initiative that was being run here a couple of years ago where contributors to the hobby were rewarded with a member plus status?

I always thought that was a great incentive to get people into the development game :wavey:

Regards,
Stratobat

[beana51]

Hanger Talk!..Shooting the breeze,BLOVIATING..the opportunity to make an ass out ones self,and to be celebrated with a coke or a beer afterwards by friends...The Old Geezers,a step ahead of Uncle Al,who seen it all,and the traditional young Hot Shots who know it all...Great Americana!...A Hanger has Big Doors to Bug out when yer butt is getting kicked...On an forum like this ,all are incognito,anonymous,faceless,cyber entities...we take liberty's.!were we all Nose to nose,face to face we Probely, we would all bust out laughing at one another...but in every crowd ,some guy will get hot...its those we have to address..for by then the subject is mute...Me at now 80yrs old,seen this, ,and its entertainment for all...However Civility counts where ever one may be......This Subject here...:???..what are we really talking about??? Some one let us know!!..All Cackling like a Turkey looking at the axe,..Which reminds me..WISHING ALL A VERY HAPPY THANKSGIVING...CHEERS!:wavey:

[Stratobat]

Hi Beana,

Many many years ago, SOH rewarded members who had contributed to the community on a development level by instituting the original Members Plus category. A number of members received it and you could generally tell them apart from other members as their usernames appeared in italics and had 'Member +' under the username... Very much like you have now, except that back then it had a specific meaning.

Regards,
Stratobat

[bazzar]

Having read some of this thead, the burning question for me is :

Do vegetarians operate ham radios or something else?

:running:

[roger-wilco-66]

Payware vs freeware... I don't understand why this should present a problem. I also don't see that payware ruins our hobby at all. Contrary, it raises the bar constantly in respect of quality and innovation. I don't think that FSX would present itself the way it does today without the work of some highly innovative developer companies. Look at what's been released just in the last 12 months and what is coming up.
So it's not payware vs. freeware (unless we generate this situation), it's payware _and_ freeware, to me they are both welcomed equally.
We also should not forget that some devs are quite willing to help out freeware developers with problems or share their knowledge, and freeware designers often help to promote payware products by producing freeware skins, addons or fixing problems for them. It's a give and take we all profit from. Unless we create an atmosphere of "versus".


Cheers,
Mark

[mmann]

Having read some of this thead, the burning question for me is :

Do vegetarians operate ham radios or something else?

:running:

They operate a "single cell" phone.

As far as payware vs freeware, I think it is more often a case of payware vs payware, with some hiring the top developers away from other payware outfits.

[Francois]

They operate a "single cell" phone.

As far as payware vs freeware, I think it is more often a case of payware vs payware, with some hiring the top developers away from other payware outfits.

Indeedy ...... :-(

[Francois]

Payware vs freeware... I don't understand why this should present a problem. I also don't see that payware ruins our hobby at all. Contrary, it raises the bar constantly in respect of quality and innovation. I don't think that FSX would present itself the way it does today without the work of some highly innovative developer companies. Look at what's been released just in the last 12 months and what is coming up.
So it's not payware vs. freeware (unless we generate this situation), it's payware _and_ freeware, to me they are both welcomed equally.
We also should not forget that some devs are quite willing to help out freeware developers with problems or share their knowledge, and freeware designers often help to promote payware products by producing freeware skins, addons or fixing problems for them. It's a give and take we all profit from. Unless we create an atmosphere of "versus".


Cheers,
Mark


I think you are correct.

[greybeardgil]

Well Happy Thanksgiving all...and I guess I will throw my 1 cent in here as well.Payware vs Freeware never came into my mind even before I started modeling.I bought the Payware I liked and was grateful for the freeware I could get. I believe that if we did not have any Payware developers for our wonderful hobby we would right now be flying an old and dead simulator we all loved. Its a shame many payware companies have ceased to exsist and less and less freeware is being built by new enthusiasts for either sim.Here at G.A.S. I have always insisted on building a few freeware aeroplanes as a reward for all our friends for being good,and to give back to the hobby and also to provide some new models for those who simply cannot afford to spend money on such silly things as our Hobby when money is needed for more important things in life. I hope our work will inspire others out there to seek and learn how to model aircraft or whatever for our hobby just as Bill Lyons as well as many others inspired us to learn and develope. Best to all Gil

[TeaSea]

Payware vs Freeware never came into my mind even before I started modeling.I bought the Payware I liked and was grateful for the freeware I could get. Gil

Absolutely the way I view this issue. I suspect that sums up the whole discussion for most folks. I also note that many freeware developers focus on things that most interest them...that may or may not be viable commercially. That's pretty neat, results in more depth overall. I also like that I can see an individual stamp on projects from freeware developers reflecting their own personalities or other interests.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do with all the virtual dog biscuits I have from Piglet.

[Lateral-G]

Well Happy Thanksgiving all...and I guess I will throw my 1 cent in here as well.Payware vs Freeware never came into my mind even before I started modeling.I bought the Payware I liked and was grateful for the freeware I could get. I believe that if we did not have any Payware developers for our wonderful hobby we would right now be flying an old and dead simulator we all loved. Its a shame many payware companies have ceased to exsist and less and less freeware is being built by new enthusiasts for either sim.Here at G.A.S. I have always insisted on building a few freeware aeroplanes as a reward for all our friends for being good,and to give back to the hobby and also to provide some new models for those who simply cannot afford to spend money on such silly things as our Hobby when money is needed for more important things in life. I hope our work will inspire others out there to seek and learn how to model aircraft or whatever for our hobby just as Bill Lyons as well as many others inspired us to learn and develope. Best to all Gil

+1

most cogent reply yet........

[Panther_99FS]

Well,
I see somethings haven't changed in my abscence......:mixedsmi:

[TeaSea]

We try.