Wake effects on out rigger floats

[OBIO]

Working on Ito's BV 138, sent a tweaked FDE and panel set to Quax duh Whatever his name is for testing. He sent back feed back, which I put to use to improve the plane even more (I hope). One of the things he mentioned was the lack of wake effects out on the out rigger floats. There are wakes coming from the central fuselage area, but not out on the out rigger floats. Water spray is there, but no wakes. I looked at a number of other aircraft that have the 3-float configuration (main central float being the lower part of the fuselage and two out rigger floats). None of them had wakes displaying on the out rigger floats. Is this a limitation of FS9? Something to do with the MDL file?

I know that the Alpha Bobcat, Milton's D-18 float and amphib, the Alpha AR-196...planes with a two float configuration...both floats display wakes. So, I assume that it is either an FS9 limitation or a MDL thing.

OBIO

[Tako_Kichi]

Hmmm...I know I've set up three wakes in FSX but can't remember for sure if I also did it in FS9. I have a feeling that I did and it was just a case of setting up the contact points correctly in the .cfg file.

[OBIO]

I spent an hour in ACM changing and rechanging the contact points...testing and testing. Never got the outer wake effects. One float point per outer float, two points per outer float. Nada.

OBIO

[Tako_Kichi]

I just checked a couple of floaters in FS9 (Rufe and Catalina) but both of those only showed splashes on the floats and wake from the hull. Confused now! :isadizzy:

[OBIO]

After working on or looking at a number of planes with the out rigger floats, and none of them displaying wakes on the out rigger floats, I am now convinced that this is a limit in FS9. Oh well, I suppose we can live without them.

OBIO

[TARPSBird]

I've never been able to figure out how the wake effects interact with the float points in order to work properly in FS9, other than trial and error. I've played hell on some planes just trying to get the spray effects to work with the outer floats when they dip into the water. I like the planes that have all the spray/wake effects working right out of the box. :icon_lol:

[Firebar]

There are certainly some planes with tip floats that spray, the biggest example (well only) example i can think of at the moment is the Saunders Roe SR-45 Princess model that was made by someone on this forum (can't remember the name off the top of my head).

[Terry]

It seems some have wakes and some do not. The Grumman Duck and Diemers S-40 do.
One thing to keep in mind is the water your testing in. Not all water supports all the effects, I have no idea why not.

[aeromed202]

If there is one thing that really taxes my patience it's float points. I don't want to know how long I spent on a Martin Mars until I got it to float and spray reasonably well. It has a distinctive posture when at a mooring. I've always thought that one who creates an aircraft dictates which parameters are available. If I'm right it would explain why some models can show 20 float points and some it seems only 4. I also thought limitations were related to the [EFFECTS] section in the cfg. I've also learned that float point line values are extremely sensitive. If they are not bang on, and they might never be made so, the effect may never show believably well although it is there waiting to work.

I'ts also worth pointing out that most float points are miserably un-realistic as positioned by the designer. Pontoon floats especially I find I have to move significantly to achieve the ability to rotate for takeoff and flare slightly for touch down without violently pitching forward.

Terry, above, makes a good point about some waters not responding to an aircraft. I thought it had to do with local conflicts with meshes and water heights. Maybe only the default water level is recognized.

[Terry]

While were on the subject, not all the land is the same either. I like to use Nicks propwash effects because they look very realistic on grass or dirt. But there are places where they will not function. Sometimes its an airport other times just default dirt.

[OBIO]

Madness, I say, Madness! Just when you think you know enough about FS9 to do something...it turns out you're still pretty much an idiot!

Well, I don't think I will be spending any more time trying to get wake effects to show on the BV138.....they may already be there, just not showing up in the 4 water areas I have tested the bird in. Same goes for Ito's Martin SP-5B Marlin....now that bird needed some serious float point tweaking....but now I've got it pretty much straightened out and working just fine.

OBIO

[jhefner]

There are also limits to how far apart you can space the wake effects in CFS2/FS2002/FS2004. In the case of Norman Bel Geddes' Airliner No. 4, the contact points are correctly under the floats, (copied them to the lights section to confirm it); but the wake effect remains between the floats. For some reason, MS did not anticipate a float plane with floats over a hundred feet apart.... :isadizzy:

http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/39567/2392665810079522983S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2392665810079522983bLEmaK)

IIRC; I tried it in FSX, and FSX seemed to have removed that limitation, or at least made it larger.

-James

[napamule]

Obio,
Hang in there. I will install the BV-138 floats tonight. I took a glance right now at the aircraft cfg from the zip. It don't even have an (Effects) section! No wonder you don't get a splash or wake (hehe). I will 'work' the whole thing, starting with the cnt pts. I am good with floats. The steering is all wrong. You only give steering to the rear float points and NOT the front ones. And one is '49.0' where the others are '20.0'. Too messed up. I will have fun tonight. Should be ready tamale. Will post in message the cnt pts at the 'Tweaks' forum (not here). I worked on the Queen Mary floats for a WEEK way back when. I know the SDK. It's the model that don't 'comply' sometimes. But I prevailed. So R-E-L-A-X. I got it. (I'll be baaaack).
Chuck B
Napamule

[OBIO]

napamule

I added effects to the config file, I get splashing and spray...just no wakes...from the pontoons.

OBIO

[napamule]

Well I messed up and put contact points here: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?55195-Ito-s-BV-138&p=605770&viewfull=1#post605770 . (Sorry about mix up). I thought it would be 'ok' in FS9 forum's 'Tweaks' section. I was up all night and half asleep when posting. They should solve your 'wake' problem (but not mine-hehe). But, I did not get a wake from the pontoons either. Don't think we will. Has to do with water quality in settings, I do believe. Splash is plenty good for me. But, I will SDK the topic and see if there is a fix-I am curious. Maybe has to do with the type of contact point used (ie: wheel or scrape)? Cheers.
Chuck B
Napamule

[emfrat]

Here's me about to do 'Miss Macau' a serious mischief, in the interests of science.
The hull produces a wake, which can be seen drifting off to starboard. The hull also produces splashes/spray and so do the tip floats, but they don't throw a wake.
The splashes/spray don't seem to drift although they do follow the path of the aircraft.
http://home.exetel.com.au/mikeward/cattrax.jpg

I have no idea how to make a float throw a wake, like a hull does. I did once fiddle with contact points to have the floats properly in the water, but then I could not take off.
Does anyone have an FS9 AI catamaran yacht? What does that leave in the water?

ATB
MikeW

[OBIO]

I think it boils down to a limitation in FS9. jhefner mentioned these limitations...which involve the distance between the floats. So, I think we will just have to live with wakes from the hull and mist/spray from the pontoons....which is fine in my book.....and in many of these planes with a hull and out rigger pontoon/float set up, the out riggers really don't touch the water all that often. They are above the water when the plane is sitting level, but act as anti-tip devices during turns and landings and such. I have looked at a lot of pics of these types of planes, and most of the pics show the out rigger pontoons ABOVE the water. That's how I have the float points on the BV138 and SP-5B Marlin set up.

OBIO

[aeromed202]

I'll pick up he gauntlet soon when I get a breather at work (expecting lots of it with temps 100+). As for the Marlin, I think I did those so I'll check and get them up, it was a bear to do.

[TARPSBird]

Obio, I'd like to try out your contact points for Ito's Marlin and see how yours compare to mine. I spent a lot of time on that plane getting the numbers to where it wouldn't cause a crash when a flight opened, or on landing.

[napamule]

Obio,
Did you get the cnt pnts (floats) for the BV-138G? On the other thread? Anyway, here is a pic of the pontoon/outrigger 'wake' you get by using 'water=fx_spray1' and 'wake=fx_wake_riva'. I tried all the other splash and wake files (in different combinations) and this combo seems the most appropriate (my opinion). And oh, these are showing the cnt pts I posted for you. I guess the outriggers could be IN the water, but doing that will cause crash (detetion on, or not). There ARE limits to what you can do sometimes. Cheers.
Chuck B

[OBIO]

The contact points I set up for the BV138 were done in conjunction with a ton of other tweaks to the config file....repositioned the virtual model to line up with the visual model, repositioned the COG and all that jazz. I am attaching the FDE set I put together for the BV138. Take off and landings are sweet, flight is nice, speeds are pretty darn close to spec. Handles like a big heavy plane but still not so hard that it takes the fun out of it (yes, I read that the BV138 was a hard plane to fly, but I wanted to be able to fly the plane witout breaking a sweat).

OBIO

[aeromed202]

Here is what I did some time ago for the Marlin, try them out and use which ever you like.

point.1=1, -37.01, 0.00, -11.48, 3500, 0, 2.00, 70, 0.39, 3.50, 0.79, 5.000, 5.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.2=1, 20.64, -5.74, -15.58, 3000, 1, 4.52, 0, 0.71, 4.50, 0.76, 8.000, 8.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.3=1, 20.64, 5.74, -15.58, 3000, 2, 4.52, 0, 0.71, 4.50, 0.76, 8.000, 8.000, 3.000, 0.000, 0.000

point.4=4, 22.00, -4.00, -9.00, 15000, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.83, 2.50, 0.63, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.5=4, -10.91, 2.08, -8.92, 15000, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.83, 2.50, 0.63, 0.000, 0.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.6=4, -10.91, -2.08, -8.92, 15000, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.83, 2.50, 0.63, 0.000, 0.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.7=4, 22.00, 4.00, -9.00, 15000, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.83, 2.50, 0.63, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.8=4, 9.00, -45.00, -7.00, 15000, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.83, 2.50, 0.63, 0.000, 0.000, 2.000, 0.000, 0.000
point.9=4, 9.00, 45.00, -7.00, 15000, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.83, 2.50, 0.63, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000, 0.000

4 main points to try to get spray to show and two outriggers. I could only go from some pictures I found to get the water line close. Didn't add water rudders yet.