Shaking Air Tractor

[hurricane3]

I just downloaded the Air Tractor 802 F both wheels and float versions.
During the first third of the takeoff run ,on land, both versions shake so bad it's hard to keep them on the runway. The float version (it's an ampihb) takes off fine on the water but on land both versions shake very badly.
I;am assuming it's a contact point issue but don't know what to change.
Anyone have any ideas on how to fix these planes?

[lazarus]

It might be a MOI(moment of inertia) issue. That can also maifest as an oscilation on the ground, as well. It a suprisingly easy fix- recalculate the MOI values... I came across an expanation and the data to recalculate MOI in another forum... this seems to apply to FS98 through to FSX. Hope it helps...


"Probably the most esoteric aspect of setting up an aircraft model for FS98 is
the estimation of Moments of Inertia or MOI's. You need to enter an MOI for
roll, pitch and yaw referenced to the three standard aircraft axes. In theory,
these are calculated by summing the product of the mass of each component with
the square of its position radius about the axis. This is a very daunting task.
Yet the MOI's play a very important part in the flight characteristics of the
aircraft. The roll MOI determines how much the aircraft resists the roll
control input, for example. Also, the relative values for the different pairs
of axes determine the coupling between axes. A simple roll input will typically
produce secondary yaw and pitch rotations as well as a roll rotation. The
direction of rotations is determined by the difference between the pairs of
MOI's: (Ix-Iy), (Iz-Ix), (Iy-Iz).
Hence, to model a plane's behavior well, it is important to nail down these
MOI's with reasonable accuracy. It is helpful to think a little bit about how
the relative size of the MOI’s is determined. To find the pitch MOI, we look at
the position of masses relative to an axis passing through the wing. Thus the
wing itself and any engines mounted on the wing do not contribute much to the
MOI. Any heavy weight in the nose or tail would contribute significantly. To
find the roll MOI, we look at the position of masses relative to an axis
passing through the center of the fuselage. Here the wing and any engines
mounted on the wing make big contributions but anything in the fuselage does
not. Modern jets with engines mounted near the fuselage have a low roll MOI. To
find the yaw MOI, we look at the position of masses relative to a vertical axis
through the wing/fuselage joint (centered on the fuselage). Almost everything
on the aircraft that is offset from the CG contributes strongly to this.
Therefore we would expect the yaw MOI to be the largest.
Dr Jan Roskam, has published an 8-volume set of texts on aircraft design. He
has taught courses in aircraft design for some time at the University of Kansas
and has developed a method for estimating MOI's that uses only basic aircraft
weight and dimensions combined with a set of coefficients of radii of gyration
for several specific aircraft. We simply determine which aircraft is similar to
the design we are concerned with, take the coefficients for each axis and the
approriate dimension and calculate MOI's. The formulae are:
Ix=(W/g)*(Rx*b/2)^2
Iy=(W/g)*(Ry*d/2)^2
Iz=(W/g)*(Rz*e/2)^2
where g=32.2 (gravity acceleration)
W=max takeoff weight (MTOW, lb)
b=span (feet)
d=length (feet)
e=(b+d)/2
and Rx, Ry and Rz are chosen from the table for the aircraft type. Some of Dr
Roskam’s dimensionless radii of gyration for several aircraft are given below
(used by permission). All are set at full fuel and MTOW.

AIRCRAFT ROLL Rx PITCH Ry YAW Rz
Low Wing Single (Beech N-35) .248 .338 .393
High Wing Single (Cessna 182RG) .242 .397 .393
Light Twin (Beech 55) .260 .329 .399
Medium Twin (Cessna 402) .373 .269 .461
Light Jet (Cessna 550 (Cit II)) .293 .312 .420
Medium Jet (Lockheed Jetstar) .370 .356 .503
Twin Turbo Prop (Fairchild F-27) .235 .363 .416
Four Eng T Prop (Electra) .394 .341 .497
Jet Airliner 4 eng (Convair 880) .322 .339 .464
Jet Airliner 3 aft eng (B 727-200) .248 .394 .502
Jet Airliner 2 eng wing (B737-200) .246 .382 .456
Jet Airliner 2 aft eng (DC-9-10) .242 .360 .435
Prop Airliner 4 eng (DC-6) .322 .324 .456
Prop Airliner 2 eng (Conv 340) .308 .345 .497
Jet Fighter (F-86) .266 .346 .400
Jet Fighter (F-104) .224 .392 .563
Jet Fighter (F-102) .295 .386 .520
Prop Fighter 1 eng (F4U Corsair) .268 .360 .420
Prop Fighter 1 eng (P47) .296 .322 .428
Prop Fighter 2 eng (Bristol Beauftr) .330 .299 .447
Prop Bomber 4 eng (B-29) .316 .320 .376
Prop Bomber 2 eng (Martin B-26) .270 .320 .410
Jet Bomber 4 eng (B-47) .346 .320 .474
Jet Bomber 8 eng (B-52) .346 .306 .466
Flying Wing (RB-49A) .316 .316 .510
These data were taken from Airplane Design Part V by Jan Roskam. ISBN 1-
884885-50-0 published by DARcorporation, Lawrence, Kansas, used by permission.
The author started using this method with Flight Shop for FS5.1 because he
noticed that the estimation method used within Flight Shop was way off making
many aircraft behave strangely. The values they suggested did not vary with
aircraft weight and basic dimensions as they should. Also, for a while with
FS95 and FS98, there was a bad problem with landing dynamics that many
developers “solved” by increasing the MOI’s. However, the landing gear inputs
in FDEditor fix the landing gear appropriately making it possible once again to
use correct MOI's for a considerable improvement in handling realism."

[pfflyers]

Very interesting...

I had to read through a couple times to stop my eyes glazing over halfway through.

Math has never been my strong suit, in the equations what is "*" and what is "^" ?

Looking it over again let me guess: * means multiply and ^ means the expression is over 2 (divided by 2) ?

[hurricane3]

Since math isn't my strong suit,it took a couple of readings for me to grasp what lazarus was talking about and still not a hundered percent sure.I the past when I've had this problem ,someone would just tell me to change a few lines in the config file, or send a new config file altogether.Didn't realise how complex it could be.
Guess I'll live with the shakeing,once I get off the ground they fly fine, just make sure you have a wide runway,at least at first,hate to run into hangers and parked planes.
Thanks Lazaruz.

[lazarus]

Which AT-802 is it? I'll have a look and massage some numbers out for you to try.

[Sunny9850]

Look for Milton's contact point tutorial. Since the airplanes fly fine I doubt it is an issue with the MOIs. More likely you will need to play with the static and max compression numbers in the contact points section.To understand which number does what start by opening the cfg for the default Cessna because MS explains every column there while an add-on might not have those comments.Stefan

[hurricane3]

I got the AT 802's at Flightsim.com,by Brian Gladden and it's both planes ,ON THE GROUND, the one with floats flys fine off the water,very smooth, but since it's an amphib ,on the ground it shakes the same way the wheeled version does.
I tried different aircraft realism seetings with no difference. I did find it's possible to taxi but there are times it shakes so bad you can't read the taxiway signs.
I also found it has a short takeoff run so it's controllable over a short distance.I believe the wheeled version is called Fire Boss, and the Float version is called Fire Tanker.

[lazarus]

Yeah, I ran that one in FS8/9, and it ran fine. Tail wheel lock? FireBoss is the tradename for the floater, the wheely is just the Tractor, some times 'Air cow' or 'sea cow' in homage to its agricultural origins, cantankerous water manners, sluggish hot and high performance ,poorly harmonized controls, and spotty quality and maintenance manuals...but its relatively inexpensive, and it has the aspect of a yellow Stuka!... I'll have a look and see if anything leaps out.

[Tom Clayton]

"*" is for multiplication, in other words, 2*2 is the same thing as 2x2. The "^" symbol is for exponents, such as 32. The previous example would be entered as 3^2. The forward slash ("/") is the same thing as ÷, so 8÷2 is typed as 8/2.

Microsoft has different formulas for calculating MOI's. I've taken those and coded them into an Excel spreadsheet to make my life a little easier.

Remember that the calculations are just starting points. Roll and yaw may need to be increased for aircraft such as a B-17 with engines stuck out on the wings, and heavy electronic equipment in the main cabin (P-3 Orion) would increase the MOI's for pitch and yaw, but have little effect on roll.

[hurricane3]

I tried both shift +G on and off which is the default tailwheel lock and didn't make any difference. I'am getting used to the bounching which ,now that I found out it takesoff rather quickly,is mainly a problem when taxiying ,but it's controllable.The bounching seems intermentant when taxying ,hard to predict when it will bounce and when it won't. It may be just the nature of the beast. Thanks for your help

[lazarus]

I tried both shift +G on and off which is the default tailwheel lock and didn't make any difference. I'am getting used to the bounching which ,now that I found out it takesoff rather quickly,is mainly a problem when taxiying ,but it's controllable.The bounching seems intermentant when taxying ,hard to predict when it will bounce and when it won't. It may be just the nature of the beast. Thanks for your help
:icon_lol:
Just like the RW Fireboss... the between castoring nose wheels and glassfiber springs, and skull crunching roll over structure, on a rough strip you need to cage eyeballs before takeoff!

[Milton Shupe]

It would be helpful to know where you got this package, maybe a link;
And, to post the Empty Weight MOI's;
And, to post the contact points data.

[hurricane3]

The bounching is managable and may be the way the real planes act. isn't really somthing I can't live with, from whats been said in here it acts fairly normal. So I'll live with it.
Thanks for the reply( right now I'am running a fever of 102.4 with the flu,) so sorry if I just wanna make the whole problem go away.
I'll keep both planes and learn to taxi them.

[OBIO]

I have been a fan of Brian Gladden's planes since my CFS2 days.....converted a number of them to use in CFS2...though they all flew like Hellcats and Zeros since I used the flight dynamics from those two CFS2 planes to get a lot of FS2002/2004 GA planes flying in CFS2. I thought I had all of Brian's planes installed, but had overlooked the AirTractors. Thanks for reminding me about them.

OBIO

[hurricane3]

Glad you found somthing new OBIO. Your more than wecome. Now if I can just shake this flu.

[OBIO]

Hurricane...

For your flu....get a big round glass...not a tall one, but a really wide round one. Fill it with water. Put it in the microwave for about 10 minutes....really super heat that water. Once super hot, drop in 4 or 5 tea bags, then add a nice long pour of honey (the darker the honey the better). Set the glass on the edge of your table. Sit in your chair, drape a thick towel over your head and lower your face over the super hot glass of tea...using the towel to contain the steam. Inhale those steam vapors deeply into your lungs...this will break up any congestion you have. Keep inhaling the steam until the tea has cooled enough to drink. Drink the tea. It may be way strong and way sweet...perhaps not the best glass of tea you have ever had. But the honey and the tea will have you feeling right as rain the following morning. I have used this "cure" for colds and flues my entire life.....handed down to me by my paternal grandpa. It works!

Back to the Air Tractor:

I took the Fire Boss for a flight out of KBFI and had absolutely no bounce or shimmy during my take off run. Smooth as glass.

Will do more testing to see if I experience any shimmy shake with the planes.

OBIO

[racartron]

Ahhh, yet another one I forgot to move over to my new rig. Just installed all three versions and did a few circuits with no adverse events: on the ground taxing, take offs or landings. Down side if I can't reproduce your problem I can't do much to help.

I'll be posting the Shockwave bits later today. Got to get ready for the Formula 1 race in Valencia, Spain.

[hurricane3]

Thankyou for the advice on the flue treatment,,I'll give it a try

[hurricane3]

I just don't understand why I'am the only one who have the bounceing with the Air Tractor ,has to be somthing on my computer.

[racartron]

I forgot our wonderful US broadcast networks must ensure everyone gets their dose of useless trivia in the morning vs showing the Formula 1 race live. They're delaying the showing 4 frigging hours.

Anyway, it allowed me to do the Shockwave bits sooner.

The wheeled version of the tanker and the duster are the same.

Aircraft.cfg Entries:

[lights]
//Types: 1=beacon, 2=strobe, 3=navigation, 4=cockpit, 5=landing
light.0=1, -19.11, 0, 9.01,fx_shockwave_beacon,
light.1=3, 0.93, -28.32, 0.38, fx_shockwave_navred
light.2=2, 0.36, -28.31, 0.38, fx_shockwave_strobe
light.3=3, 0.97, 28.26, 0.40, fx_shockwave_navgre
light.4=2, 0.36, 28.27, 0.38, fx_shockwave_strobe_2
light.5=3, -20.32, 0, 0.30, fx_shockwave_navwhi
light.6=4, -4.97, 0, 5.10, fx_shockwave_vclight,
light.7 = 6, 13.20, -0.6, -1.0, fx_Shockwave_landing_light_small,
light.8 = 5, 13.20, 0.6, -1.0, fx_shockwave_landing_light_tail,

The Amphibian version is slightly different in that the "taillight" is a bit further back.

Aircraft.cfg Entries:

[lights]
//Types: 1=beacon, 2=strobe, 3=navigation, 4=cockpit, 5=landing
light.0 = 1, -19.11, 0, 9.01, 9.01,fx_shockwave_beacon,
light.1 = 3, 0.93, -28.32, 0.38, fx_shockwave_navred
light.2 = 2, 0.36, -28.31, 0.38, fx_shockwave_strobe
light.3 = 3, 0.97, 28.26, 0.40, fx_shockwave_navgre
light.4 = 2, 0.36, 28.27, 0.38, fx_shockwave_strobe_2
light.5 = 3, -23.10, 0, -1.30, fx_shockwave_navwhi
light.6 = 4, -4.97, 0, 5.10, fx_shockwave_vclight,
light.7 = 6, 13.20, -0.6, -1.0, fx_Shockwave_landing_light_small,
light.8 = 5, 13.20, 0.6, -1.0, fx_shockwave_landing_light_tail,

Since the Amphibian has retractable gear, you can also add this to the Panel.

Panel.cfg Entries:
[Vcockpit01]
.
.
.
gauge31=shockwave_lights!SW Lights_gear, 1,1,1,1
gauge32=shockwave_lights!SW Lights_taxi_gear, 1,1,1,1

[Tom Clayton]

You can add trigger control to the dust/drop effect by using Rob's Brake Smoke gauge instead of the spoiler activated gauge that comes with the planes:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?23800-Gauge-Needed

[Sunny9850]

The bouncing is as I mentioned earlier likely linked to the contact points and the calculation of the dampening in the main struts. The fact that you have it and others don't is also not unusual. It is likely some add-on scenery that changed how FS reacts to the ground surfaces.We had similar issues with the Connies, Carenado had issues with the C-185 but not for everyone. Only some people experience the issue. In all cases making the gear a bit "softer" cures the problem.Stefan

[Tom Clayton]

I just tested at Default KGSO and got a little tailwheel bounce too. I'll have to take a look at the contact points in a bit, but for now the outside world beckons...

[hurricane3]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'am not gonna worry about the bounce,just live with it.

[hurricane3]

I'am trying obio's fix for the flu right now, feel a little better today but it's gonna take time,I've been really sick for a week.

[aeromed202]

I dunno about the MOI calculator but I'm game to try it out. Meanwhile it has been my observation that most, certainly all I've worked on, of the ground shimmies can be fixed with some tedious manipulations of the contact points. And I do mean tedious, have a couple of beers and some pizza by your side and beg your loved ones to indulge you in some alone time tedious. I'll see if I have these planes and if they jitter for me.

[hurricane3]

I really thankyou for what you want to do ,but to me it's not worth it. So please forget about any tedious manipulations, I need to keep things as simple as possible ,and I can manage the bounceing so please don't do any more unless you want to for yourself.Thanks again

[aeromed202]

It is often tedious but sometimes it's not. Maybe I overdid it a bit with the violins. It's more the tedium that you know will produce a worth while result. Anyway, when I checked it turns out I had already started on this so all I had to do was finish it off. Only a half pint job :icon29: There are some other areas that I think could use some help but the contact points below seem to fix the jiggles. Try them out.

[contact_points]
static_pitch=10
static_cg_height=6
max_number_of_points=7
point.0=1, -21.74, 0.00, -2.57, 2574.8, 0, 0.70, 50, 0.44, 2.5, 0.60, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
point.1=1, 2.80, -5.50, -6.98, 1574.8, 1, 1.35, 0, 0.46, 2.5, 0.70, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
point.2=1, 2.80, 5.50, -6.98, 1574.8, 2, 1.35, 0, 0.46, 2.5, 0.70, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
point.3=2, -1.3997, -27.9067, -0.9088, 1574.8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5, 0, 0
point.4=2, -1.4242, 27.9067, -0.9088, 1574.8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5, 0, 0
point.5=2, -23.0382, 0, 0.6571, 1574.8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 9, 0, 0
point.6=2, 12.7791, 0, -2.5969, 1574.8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0

[hurricane3]

Thankyou for the new contact points, I printed them out for future reference,since right now I really don't feel like typeing out all those figures though thanks to OBIO I do feel better. But I'll keep them for the day when I fell really ambitious.Thanks again

[hurricane3]

You should be in the medical field, cause your treatment worked wonders. I feel so much better ,didn't think I'd ever shake this thing ,and I have a way to go before I'am totally over it but I feel so much better since I tried your treatment. Thanks so much

[aeromed202]

Nah, just copy and paste the whole section right over the old one in the cfg and save when prompted. But make a copy of the original just in case.

[hurricane3]

I tried copying and pasting but it wanted to put the new contact points at the top of the config file and leave the old ones in place, so as far as I'am concerned it's getting to much for me so lets just forget the whole thing. I do thank you for your hard work, everyone here who has taken this project seriously has gone above and beyond. But I can really live with the bounce. Thanks again.

[aeromed202]

No, It's my bad, I forget what it was like back when I first started messing with FS guts. I'll shoot you a PM to get this sorted out so we can get this plane flying the way it should be. It's easier than you think. Besides, what you pick up on will be usable for other aircraft as well. Hang in there!

[lazarus]

hi Hurricane. I liked that flue cure. I accidently found out that one beer on top of a Contact C won't cure you, but you won't care that you have the flu!
I had to get our lovely and efficiant office manager to dig my 2002 disc out of my desk and send it up with- syncronicity!- some PT-6 stuff comming on the bus. Loaded it up last night and took the -802 for a burn around the patch- and it was fine, But- as noted, different computers and install states give different results. I just popped OBIOs modified contact points into the wheel version configuuration files and zipped 'em up- back up the originals, drop 'em in and have a go- I left the Shockwave lights out for now,as I did not have the panel near at hand- unloaded it all again- 400Gb hd in the laptop and its maxxed out all the time....Don't worry about the fussing- its our hobby.
The MOI's look about right for the model-so thats not it. Hey; I love a mystery!
Get well soon. Lazarus

[hurricane3]

Well, I decided to listen to you ,(why I don't know) and followed your instructions to the letter and , darned if it didn't work. The wheeled version only bounces when you give it the most revs on the ground before it overides the brakes when your doing the ground check ,but thats to be expected.
It taxi;s smooth with out bounceing and sits all day at idle with out any bounce. So even though I didn't want to mess with it any more you wouldn't leave me alone till I learned how to replace whole sections of config files , and it runs smooth as silk on the ground, (always did in the air).
The float version, even though I never touched the config file ,even runs better on the ground, same as the wheeled version ,so ( now listen to me) THERE IS NO NEED TO DO ANYTHING WITH THE FLOAT VERSION !)Seriously ,thankyou Aermed for not only not giving up on me but teaching me how to do large edits in config files and giving me a nice ground handling plane, that was very hard to taxi before, can't figure why the float version is even better. But Thankyou for being so persistant.

[hurricane3]

Thanks Lazarus but do to Aeromeds stubborness (he wouldn't leave well enough alone) I got the Air tractor fixed so won't need OBIO's fix, Although between his flu cure and yours , I think I like yours better even when I don't have the flu.

[hurricane3]

I downloaded OBIO's fix and saved it that you provided just in case I need it someday. Thankyou

[lazarus]

Good news. In truth, despite my somewhat disparaging comments about the AT-802-and that mostly relates to the early days of the type, when there were a number of teething problems, Automotive and truck electrical and plumbing bits in it to hold down cost, and AT502 manuals ect ect- empty, its a hoot, if a bit of a hand full landing and take off wise- but hey, its a huge tail dragger, with a lot of torque under the hood.
Leyland Snow was quite a character- as are his airplanes.
Ta! lazarus

[aeromed202]

Geez, I was happy before and still am. Glad it all worked out. :applause:

[hurricane3]

I'am glad it did too,thanks to you. As much as I vow never to get back into flightsims when I finally get rid of this ten year old beast and how much more stress than anything sims cause me, I know I'll always have a few sims on board , just to meet caracters like you. Flight simmers are next to our military the best people I've ever had the honor to meet. Thanks again

[hurricane3]

Thanks for the great pic of a real Air Tractor ,never saw a real one before and thanks for the info about the plane.

[hurricane3]

Last night after getting the new config section in ,both Air tractors were smooth on the ground and taxied easly. Today the bouncing is back with both planes. I double checked that the modded config file had saved and hadn't gone back to the old one ,but it was the same as when I had changed it. I have OBIO's mods but their txt and cfg files combined into one . I know the names can't be changed to just cfg files ,will they work as txt/cfg files?
I'am ready to say the heck with it anyway ,getting very weary about trying to take the bounce out of one aircraft, so I will probley leave them alone, don't know why they changed overnight and the config file for the wheeled version( didn't think the float version needed it) has all the new values that I changed.
I'am really starting to think that while they call model Railroading the " Worlds Greatest Hobby" flight simming is the" World Worst Hobbby" Bout ready to make the switch, too stressful for me.

[Sunny9850]

Is this renewed bouncing at the field where it was smooth yesterday or on a different location ?As for FS being sometimes frustrating and sometimes a great joy.....well I guess it just is as real as it gets. Real flying is much the same. It is challenging in physical and mental form, it sometimes makes you look like a klutz just when you least need it. But when you do manage to keep all the balls in the air it is the best thing there is. 279 hours after we purchased our PA32-301 and about 50 different approaches to getting a hot start sequence that works 100% of the time I have just concluded that short of installing a FADEC system our IO-540 sometimes just doesn't feel like it.In the end is simply a personal choice, do you just want to give up or bite down a bit and get by with the help of your friends. As long as there is CalClassic and SOH I think the choice is quite simple.Stefan

[aeromed202]

Welcome to hobbying in general. Sorry to the folks that think FS is more than that, I think it is something rather unique myself. A love/hate relationship seems to fit. When I can't figure out a problem like this one I just hangar the plane for a while and fly one I know works well. So just walk away from it for a bit. But for sure you don't have to quit posting FS problems or frustrations. In fact this is THE place to get them addressed. Maybe not fixed but as you have seen some of us like to slay the dragon.

[hurricane3]

The bounching came back at the same airport the default one at Seattle. I taxied over the same surfaces both asphalt and grass or dirt ,whatever some of that brownish stuff is.In other words I decided to test it again using the exact same surfaces and conditions as the night before. I'am for walking away from it for now, this computer is 10 years old ,although most parts in the tower and the monitor have been replaced at least once so any day the whole thing will go anyway. Why put a bunch of work into something that won't last anyway?
It's just that I don't fire up the sim to fly anymore just to test something because I figure ,whats going to go wrong now?

[Sunny9850]

Welcome to hobbying in general. Sorry to the folks that think FS is more than that ...... Well I saved a bundle during both my private and instrument training thanks to FS and I have met some of the most wonderful people I know in British Columbia thanks only to FS and a forum such as this. So it can be quite more than just a hobby.If the same airplane reacts completely different at the same place than the day before and you did not make any changes that is indeed troubling. My stubborn personality would have to find out why that is....but since that might involve serious experimentation including adding a completely stock parallel install of FS on the same system I doubt, after reading your posts that this the way for you to go. There are plenty other airplanes out there to fly and enjoy....so if one just doesn't want to play ball for you on your particular setup it might be best to move on indeed.Stefan

[racartron]

Having stayed way too long stuck in the fs2002 world(due to serious HW limitations), I became very adept at making fs2004 planes function in a world they inherently didn't like. And like Stefan I would spend whatever it took to "get 'er done," but on rare occasions the trash can was the only option.

Now that I run FS2004 on a kicka** PC, I can spend the vast majority of my time loading and flying which is so cool. If a particular plane acts too silly, I will spend a few minutes fiddling with it, but no where near the time I'd invest in FS2002. I have a very short fuse nowadays as there are sooo many planes that work perfectly outta the box -- so to speak.

The changes I make now are to enhance an already flyable bird to suit my preferences, not to make it work such as; specular shine, lighting, smokey bits, tire pressure, effects, etc. That stuff is fun and the results are very satisfying.

So after all this "rational rambling," my advice is set your frustration level alarm very low and always keep the trash can near by. Then quickly move on to one of those awesome birds you know you love. In just a few moments you will remember why FS is so much fun.

[hurricane3]

Thankyou both for your understanding of the way I feel about flight simming. As frustrated as I get ,for some reason (just plane cussedness ) I always go back. The Air Tractors are flyable and I will keep them. In the air they are smooth a silk ,on the ground they can ,at times rattle your teeth(ya at almost 64 I still have my own) but as I said before I can still manage to taxi them,since I'am a cold ,dark, parking area type.I hate just sitting at the end of the runway and firewalling the throttle.
So anyway ,I do have to agreee ,FS people are some of the nicest ( althought a bit nuts) people you could ever know. I wish there were an FS group around here but sadlly I know of none.

[aeromed202]

Now you know why we're a bit nuts. :icon_lol:

[hurricane3]

I've been nuts for as long as I remember ,being a flight simmer just made me know how nuts.