Enough is enough

[michael davies]

I've had several requests for info, meshes and paint masters in the past few months, all polite and nice until the information or files have been given, and then nothing, maybe its me but if you can take the time to write and ask then you should be able to take the time to reply with two simple words at least, thank you isn't hard to write.

Sadly further requests for information, files, meshes and paint masters will all be answered to the negative, whats already out there is fair game but no more, I'm tired of all the lazy, rude, insert your excuse here (.....) gimme pigs. I'll consider colleagues, old friends and those who have said thank you before, but anyone new, sorry your out of luck, blame your predecessors.

Sadly Michael.

[jeansy]

fair call mick

[JayKae]

Agreed, fair call

[Railrunner130]

While I have requested material from developers that sometimes never amounted to anything via my own fault (the CRDA Z.511 comes to mind), I have always been greatful and thanked them.

Sorry to hear of your bad streak Michael. I do hope you change your mind.

[Milamber]

To the best of my knowledge I have not asked for assistance in this way and being an OAP [Senior Citizen] there are many times when I wished I had known who to ask for what and I certainly wouldn't be ill mannered enough to say [as a minimum] thank you to whomsoever performed a particular service. How sad, therefore, to read that there are those among us who have failed to perform such a simplistic act of manners. Shame on them.

M.

[delta_lima]

Sorry to hear of all the negativity.

It truly is pathetic to see the lack of gratitude - in particular for freeware - these days. I remember the FS98 days (before I knew that a sim could be modded, or that places like flightsim.com even existed) tootling around over and over in the same default Lear, wishing there was a fighter jet somewhere to be had for the sim ....

Maybe the wealth of addons has made it easy for some to develop an entitled set of expectations - who knows.

Regardless, have always appreciated your work, thanks again for all past - and possibly future - projects.

dl

[mjahn]

The way I handle this is as follows. I freely give what I can give, but for each request that I get I check whether the person has had a request granted before and if s/he has followed proper email etiquette then. If not, then I say I am sorry No, or don't reply at all. Same for tips in forums, if they aren't acknowledged following PoP (Principle of Politeness), that poster will get none in future.

[mmann]

This is the world we live in. I have seen people actually demand that their posts be answered; yet all too often they can't even be bothered to thank someone who has taken the time and effort to answer them. The same goes for FSX freeware creation; such a thankless job that I sometimes wonder why anyone would bother at all.

Regards, Mike Mann

[limjack]

Thank you, so easy to say and means so much to all of us

[fsafranek]

The way I handle this is as follows. I freely give what I can give, but for each request that I get I check whether the person has had a request granted before and if s/he has followed proper email etiquette then. If not, then I say I am sorry No, or don't reply at all. Same for tips in forums, if they aren't acknowledged following PoP (Principle of Politeness), that poster will get none in future.
Not intending to side rail your thread Michael but just wanted to give a nod to mjahn's comment. Have to agree completely, especially when giving advice/assistance in a product support situation. So many times you have no idea whether the suggest worked or if they even saw it. The thread just suddenly ends with your answer.

Sorry to hear of your decision Michael but completely understand. There's a sense of entitlement out there lately in a lot of matters (certainly not limited to flightsim) that just hasn't been earned.
:ernae:</SPAN>

[OleBoy]

Michael, indeed I agree with the way you feel. I've seen more take take, as you mention. Those who do give, work very hard to be able to do that. I'm just scratching the surface, but, considering I'm getting more in-depth with sim related things like I have been, I'm learning quickly it's a lot of work.

I don't recall if I ever asked you for anything, but I experience your point. Irritating.

[Piglet]

I get similar. I really love the "I know you don't do requests, but can you make me a XXX, with full Accusim, paint kit, etc. In one week." letters.
Those who ask nicely for the OK to post on their site, repaints, etc. will get a nice reply from me. If not...
DELETE BUTTON

[pilottj]

'I know you don't do requests but can you make a flying porta john complete with accusimmed controls??' :icon_lol::icon_lol:

[Roadburner440]

Sorry to hear this Mr. Davies as you truly are an assett to the flight simulation community! I agree though that the 'gimme' societal attitude is getting a little old though. Granted I haven't seen it here, but just in life in general.

[Francois]

Always the same... but getting worse it seems.... ;-(

[warchild]

I think that this phenomena is one of the main reasons why many freeware developers have simply stopped doing freeware.. It just isnt worth it at some point.. Look at the P-61 thread. No, i'm not hawking my plane, but really, look at the time energy and effort put into that plane by my team. believe me, its nothing special. ALL developers put in amazing amounts of time and energy to bring these works of engineering art to the public, and all most of us want is a smile, or a thank you.. 2000 hours work for two little words in return.. I personally dont think its a lot to ask or even expect.. By not saying thank you, you send one clear message to us.. You dont care.. Well, guess what, we've got lives too. We dont have to do these planes. We could be out climbing mountains, water skiing, flying even.. You can go fly ancient Ito-san's or something else of equally doubtful characteristics. Is that what you folks would want?? think about it....!!
Pam

[Francois]

That's why making payware is in a way more rewarding. You get paid and don't have to care for (non-just) comments. Buy it or leave it. Of course, you'll have an obligation to do customer support instead, which is a dog for many developers.

Then again... who said life's simple? :icon_lol:

[Rich]

Not what Mr Ito would want to thank you for not very charitable

Well, guess what, we've got lives too. We dont have to do these planes. We could be out climbing mountains, water skiing, flying even.. You can go fly ancient Ito-san's or something else of equally doubtful characteristics. Is that what you folks would want?? think about it....!!
Pam

[peter12213]

I have no place to post here but you all should know by now, this is praise of the highest kind, personally I'm not one for messaging people asking for stuff to be made for me but you guys get emails because you are some of the top developers in this hobby and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, this will always happen, take it as being a flightsim celebrity with email paparazzi lol!!

[warchild]

Very true. not very charitable.. My apologies..But a bucket is a bucket and even Ito San admits his flight characteristics arent accurate or even very good..
I have for some time though specifically searched out and sought Japanese movies he's had a hand in specifically for his excellence in that field..

[N2056]

The subject is one I have pondered a lot in the last few weeks. In the time since I have released the Thorp the only place where I actually got some feedback on the plane (not counting repaints) was here. I uploaded to 2 other big sites...one actually had a person that posted some screenshots, the other one got a few replies to a post that I started two weeks after I uploaded it. I guess that getting 3d gauges, custom animations, and L-39 style landing lights in a package that was several years in the works in the name of accuracy for free is not as big a deal as I thought.

Back when I released the Quickie it was the same thing. On one site where I actually brought up the issue at the time one reply I got was "you should consider every download as a thank you". Guess which site I left out on the Thorp!

Considering the fact that each site forces you to go through a lengthy process to upload I'm not too interested in going through the process again for naught. In the future I'm only going to upload here.

Sorry if it seemed like a rant, but it's been bugging me and it seemed like a good fit for the topic.

[deathfromafar]

Gosh, sigh!

All I want to add is that I appreciate every Big or Little thing the Devs and Tweakers do for us. Simply said, if it wasn't for you guys, there would be no joys & toys for any of us.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU! (AND YES, ESPECIALLY YOU MR. DAVIES!!!) :salute::applause:

[Naki]

The subject is one I have pondered a lot in the last few weeks. In the time since I have released the Thorp the only place where I actually got some feedback on the plane (not counting repaints) was here. I uploaded to 2 other big sites...one actually had a person that posted some screenshots, the other one got a few replies to a post that I started two weeks after I uploaded it. I guess that getting 3d gauges, custom animations, and L-39 style landing lights in a package that was several years in the works in the name of accuracy for free is not as big a deal as I thought.

Back when I released the Quickie it was the same thing. On one site where I actually brought up the issue at the time one reply I got was "you should consider every download as a thank you". Guess which site I left out on the Thorp!

Considering the fact that each site forces you to go through a lengthy process to upload I'm not too interested in going through the process again for naught. In the future I'm only going to upload here.

Sorry if it seemed like a rant, but it's been bugging me and it seemed like a good fit for the topic.


There are a couple of threads at NZFF.org of your Thorp most of which related to the connection of the Thorp to our the New Zealand built Fletcher ag aircraft. I thought there would be more reaction there as well considering the quality, mind you NZFF is not a huge site.

I need to get my act together and post some shots of ZK-EDF at NZFF but I have been distracted by a recent payware aircraft I bought (Warnbirdsim P-51D) and real life issues (blasted cold)

[Walter]

I'm sorry that it has come to this. I know that I personally try to remember to say "Thank you" after every post, and for the times that I have forgotten, Thank you all!

It stinks that people are too lazy to say two simple, meaningful words. I have tried my own hand at making planes with gMax, and I understand the hard work that you all put into each and every plane. As for me, I didn't know enough to make a plane... lol.

Thank you,

Walter :jump:

[michael davies]

I didn't start this as an effort to gather thanks LOL, but thanks to those anyay that have :). I also think the atmosphere around here is generally pretty genial, so its not the boards per se its the individual contacts that I have issue with.

It just appears to be a growing trend, three PMs on this site from three individuals, all with what I call 'non closure responses', thats a 100% failure rate, I don't think it'll ever change nor do I know what the answer is. You can never tell from first contact whether its all going to end correctly.

Forums are a mix up and its quite normal not to get closure, you just cannot say thank you to every reply or post and I think thats a reasonably acceptable outcome, though some thanks or conformation that a fix you have offered has worked is helpfull too.

But PMs are different, thats a one to one contact and it does leave an acrid after taste, you almost feel like you've been mugged.

I know I'm not the only one that this happens to and in a round about way, offering models and services automatically puts you in this position, but that doesn't make it any easier to stomach when it happens.

I can fully understand now why some developers or community members behave like they do, it'll look odd to those that have not been through the same, 'miserable git, 'if you can't stand the heat' sort of snipes often occur after each incident, not necessary to be honest and just prove the maturity or 'inmaturity' of those posting such comments.

I will probably get back to FS work, but it'll no longer be what everyone else wants, it'll be what I want and I think many other develpers are doing the same, which means you'll end up with more of the most popular models than the fringe models we have seen in the past, example, I'd pick a Skyhawk over a Marlin, Galaxy over a Globemaster II. The end result is less choice for the community and a rise in the "jeez how many B737s,Airbus, F-16, (insert any popular aircraft) do we need!" posts. There will still be those making the exotic and fringe models...good job chaps...but they will become scarcer and scarcer IMHO.

Kindest

Michael

[AndyG43]

Hurriedly checked my PM's to see what contact I'd had with you Michael - thankfully the one conversation we had seemed to have been brought to a sensible conclusion.

Definitely hearing what you are saying though, and what Pam and the others are saying too. Over the years I've seen several people give up in total disgust, due to the constant sniping at their work; Mike Stone springs to mind, as he made clear he was also just doing what he was interested in, but was also kind enough to let us share in his work - but the amount of criticism aimed at him (not here, but another forum was particularly snipy about some of his work) eventually made him throw his hands up and leave the hobby. To my mind that is our loss, not Mike's; he gave us some gems over time, which were never going to come from anywhere else - for example, his Fokker 27 is still the only game in town & people still whine about the "shortcomings" without making any effort to do something about it.

Itosan, now there is an interesting man. Pam, you're right, he admits his FDE's are not top notch but he has never stopped anybody tweaking them; he has also given us some unique models over time (one or two especially to make a grumpy old Brit very happy - a Rotodyne and the SRA.1, who'd have thunk it). It looks like ill health has finally brought his output to a halt and, again, mourn that fact.

Until the day comes when I can build my own models, make my own paintkits etc you will find nothing but awe and gratitude from this quarter. Michael, Pam, Piglet et al, thank you from the bottom of my heart! :salute:

[Bjoern]

I will probably get back to FS work, but it'll no longer be what everyone else wants, it'll be what I want and I think many other develpers are doing the same, which means you'll end up with more of the most popular models than the fringe models we have seen in the past, example, I'd pick a Skyhawk over a Marlin, Galaxy over a Globemaster II. The end result is less choice for the community and a rise in the "jeez how many B737s,Airbus, F-16, (insert any popular aircraft) do we need!" posts. There will still be those making the exotic and fringe models...good job chaps...but they will become scarcer and scarcer IMHO.

Should our paths cross airplane interest-wise, gimme a shout.


And to be honest, I prefer am good technical question over a simple "Thanks". It shows that the "other side" really takes some interest in your work instead of just wanting to fuss around with little to no results.

[Nick C]

I was going to say that developers are no better, but I guess we're actually talking about developers if they are asking for your source code.

I've been asked by developers in the past if I can take pictures for them ASAP on a project that's about to be released, agreed and told them I can slot it into my schedule and then never heard back from them.

Sadly folk will be folk, no matter what industry you're in.

Having said that, I'm far from perfect too (before somebody else points it out). :engel016:

[michael davies]

I was going to say that developers are no better, but I guess we're actually talking about developers if they are asking for your source code.

I've been asked by developers in the past if I can take pictures for them ASAP on a project that's about to be released, agreed and told them I can slot it into my schedule and then never heard back from them.

Sadly folk will be folk, no matter what industry you're in.

Having said that, I'm far from perfect too (before somebody else points it out). :engel016:

To expand would be uncivilized :) and not required for the main content here in.

The last three were people who work with meshes, templates and in the industry, but they are not the whole picture, just the most recent three and the most in the fore front of my mind and I suppose the three that 'burst' the bubble. But there have been others, many others, not just people after old source files, a lot were from my customer care days at 'the place we dare not talk about in public forums' LOL and there have been many where it was general chit chat about information here and there.

I kind of understand if your last dialog was "here you go that should fix it", thats kind of an ending statement, but if its "please try these and let me know how you get on", or "let me know when you have the files and they are not corrupt", which in my mind are questions that good grace expects a reply, those are the ones I fail to comprehend.

I have to confess I am very disappointed in the way M Stone was hounded, or for that matter Mr Ito in earlier days, there have been others but their names escape me, and there will be others in the future I am sure, sad world we live in I'm afraid.

I must be getting old, I find myself increasingly at odds with modern ideals and expected behavioral patterns LOL.

Kindest

Michael

[Paul K]

I must be getting old, I find myself increasingly at odds with modern ideals and expected behavioral patterns LOL.

Welcome to the weary club.

:ernae:

[Wing_Z]

Here's a bit of wisdom that has stood me in good stead, many times:
"Do not attribute to Malice, that which can be attributed to Laziness, or Stupidity"

The latter can include a lack of social skills, too.
Some time back I downloaded some stuff, liked it, and thought I'd build on the idea and do a local version with some little extras.
I like to think one of the strengths of the hobby is to take what's been done, build on it, expand it - that's called progress.
I told the author about it, though I didn't really need to; the work was going to be my own anyway.

After uploading the package (Many hours later, some pain and frustration included, including a strong desire to biff the whole thing) I got an email from the author mentioned above.
"Cool" I thought, nice to get some collegial recognition for what was quite a problematic effort. You know what's coming...and talk about tossing toys out of the cot!
Apparently I hadn't given him prominent enough credit for the original idea (although mentioned in one of the readme's).
Concluding with “It is plagiarists such as yourself that disappoint and discourage some of the more creative and innovative FS9 authors to the point that they leave this hobby and we are all the losers for that. “

Talk about a bucket of cold water being dropped on you!
But I got over it...with recourse to the bit of Wisdom I talk of, above.
And nowadays I don't do anything which isn't in the first instance for my own pleasure.
When it gets shared, it is with no expectation; you have less chance of disappointment...

[Astoroth]

Welcome to the weary club.

:ernae:

Ditto

[Bjoern]

I kind of understand if your last dialog was "here you go that should fix it", thats kind of an ending statement, but if its "please try these and let me know how you get on", or "let me know when you have the files and they are not corrupt", which in my mind are questions that good grace expects a reply, those are the ones I fail to comprehend.

Actually, isn't no reply equivalent to "The files work" and thus positive?


I have to confess I am very disappointed in the way M Stone was hounded, or for that matter Mr Ito in earlier days, there have been others but their names escape me, and there will be others in the future I am sure, sad world we live in I'm afraid.

The curse of an (imaginative) "quality gap".
You announce a model, preferably freeware and people expect fancy stuff like a FMC or lately even AccuSim without having the slightest idea how time consuming creating just the exterior model is.

I guess the only solution is a "F*** this/Deal with it" attitude and a happy place.

If you just can't get enough of building and creating things in virtual worlds, try Minecraft. It's relaxing and addictive all at once and perfectly takes your mind off the big, bad, unrewarding MSFS world.

[Nick C]

Actually, isn't no reply equivalent to "The files work" and thus positive?

No it's most certainly not!

[Francois]

and perfectly takes your mind off the big, bad, unrewarding MSFS world.

:icon_lol:
I think the MSFS world is far from that compared to some other 'communities' and hobbies.

What often happens is that people expect too much, sometimes from both sides, and expectations then become 'truth' somehow.

As long as it is your hobby, you should be able to shrug things off. Lets face it, there are nasty people in all walks of life and in all sorts of organizations and activities, but overall they are still a very small minority.

For one's own sake one should just ignore them and focus on one's own pleasure and the good people associated with it.

If it's your job, then you are stuck with them and have to be 'nice' to them, unless you can really afford to ignore them there too.
If the latter is the case, then you are REALLY a lucky mam/woman and better off than most employees and employers :icon_lol:

[Bjoern]

No it's most certainly not!

Oh well, in my book it is. At least on the "Giving the source code/model away" side.

Also, one too many "please" and "thanks" rather ruins my day than enhances it.




:icon_lol:
I think the MSFS world is far from that compared to some other 'communities' and hobbies.

I say it's just the same as every other community with the only difference being that the twentysomething users elsewehere create and express internet drama differently than the fourtysomething users in the MSFS world.


As long as it is your hobby, you should be able to shrug things off.

I just wish you could do it with a "cluster f-bomb" every single time.




...


...


...

Wow, so many people "in the loop" here?
I'm pleasantly surprised.


P.S: Torches are limited? What? Where? But not in 1.6.6?

[gigabyte]

OK folks, "Ears Hopin" this works for everyone, as requested by the Moderators the Minecraft posts have been moved to their own thread in the Other Hobbies section named "Minecraft - Moved from FSX General", and this thread can now continue on it's original topic.

:salute:

[N2056]

Thanks Mike!

[warchild]

Thanks Mike :)..