Would you Pre-Order to get a specific aircraft?

[AndyE1976]

Often when a developer announces they're working on a new aircraft it's accompanied by posts asking why they didn't build X and often the answer is simple economics, so I was wondering how many of us would pre-order an aircraft if that meant that the aircraft would get built?

It could work like it does with Amazon, where the pre-order includes payment details, but nothing is charged until the product releases.

The point would be to give developers some indicator of the financial viability of a product and tackle aircraft that they might otherwise not consider feasible.

Maybe this is an overly simplistic view and it would be great to hear ideas from the developers on here.

[joanvalley]

Fantastic idea seems to me. A FSX model made to 100% customer request.

Jose.

[Mathias]

I think that doesn't work in our very small family-like market where the dev knows quite a prominent percentage of his customers in person from the few dedicated forums.
The number of pre-orders would probably not be an indication for anything and the customers would be p****d off when project X doesn't materialize as expected or promised.

[thunder100]

Hi Depending on the information and a sure delivery time(An bigger issue with FS planes) I would(and have) preordered and prepaid-->would do again

Information I need a screenshots including panel(s) and a frame rate indication.Of course of some known deveopers(Carenado,Classic Hangar,Skyunlimited,Lionhart to name a few)

The on order thing of a specific plane I doubt it would work as maybe just 2 pals (me an Huub) pay for a new FSX Ju-88 A4

Roland

[gajit]

Only from a dev I knew would do a good job and promises a sustained high standard like A2A, Carenado, Capt Sim, Flight Replicas, Vstudios, Cera, Lotus, FS addons and Classic Hangar (no particular order of pref)

[Stratobat]

Hi Andy,


The point would be to give developers some indicator of the financial viability of a product and tackle aircraft that they might otherwise not consider feasible.

You can accomplish the same thing by running a poll either through a couple of forums or on the developers website.

Regards,
Stratobat

[jankees]

Depends on the model (of course) and the developer, but there are a few I'd most certainly pay for and to in advance.

Make that three for the Ju-88 btw!

[AndyE1976]

Hi Andy,



You can accomplish the same thing by running a poll either through a couple of forums or on the developers website.

Regards,
Stratobat

The difference is that there's no commitment with a poll to actually purchase the aircraft when it's completed.

I think Mathias has a valid point about the number of people who would pre-order as an indication of total sales, but on the other hand a lot of add-ons get their publicity through the web it seems and if you pre-ordered from the developers own website then the potential for pre-orders would not necessarily be too different than the potential for a normal order. What you wouldn't get is the people that get their 'new release' info from online stores and from what they see in their local games shop.

Oh and make that 4 for the Ju88 :)

[Bjoern]

You can accomplish the same thing by running a poll either through a couple of forums or on the developers website.

Exactly.


Devs with a collar and a leash and whipping by the customers...yeah, right...

[Pepere]

Sure would depending on developer of course. But how would they come up with a price before development cost is known? One developer had a 1/2 off for pre-orders and I did purchase that aircraft - Course it was only a month before release...

David

[Stratobat]

The difference is that there's no commitment with a poll to actually purchase the aircraft when it's completed.

I would agree with you but the problem, as I see it, is that there is no commitment to purchase the product even if one does place a pre-order as pre-orders may be cancelled.

A lot can happen during a twelve to eighteen month development cycle of a product.

Regards,
Stratobat

[MudMarine]

Depends on the model (of course) and the developer, but there are a few I'd most certainly pay for and to in advance.

Make that three for the Ju-88 btw!

And four! Been waiting forever for a ju88 or me110!!

[AndyE1976]

Sure would depending on developer of course. But how would they come up with a price before development cost is known? One developer had a 1/2 off for pre-orders and I did purchase that aircraft - Course it was only a month before release...

David

All software development starts off with some sort of estimate, even if it is just a ball park figure. All aircraft have similar development in the sense that they each have a mesh, textures, flight model etc, the variation is in complexity and the degree of systems modelling that goes into it. A company like Aerosoft or IRIS would have a good idea of the development costs and necessary sales to make a project viable.

I agree that it would totally depend on the developer, there are some that I wouldn't consider even if they gave away their offerings, and others that the price is almost irrelevant due to the quality of work.

This was just one idea to try and overcome the 'issue' of some aircraft being produced at the expense of others due to the economic reality of running a development house. It probably isn't viable, but I thought it was worth posting.

[skyhawka4m]

Andy I think its an awesome idea. I just wish that a group of professional people would get together and donate time to develope these planes. I would be more than will to donate time to join a group like this as long as it was a quality aircraft in the end that I could enjoy.

sadly it seems, many have gotten away from the fun of this sim to trying to develope the real deal and sadly...its ruining the fun for me.


If someone would like to start a venture like this...count me in. I tried to join the P-61 venture but it seems my help was not needed so.....time to look for something else to help with......all I ask is for a quality plane, and a copy of it.....

[Snave]

Only with a developer that offers a full money back guarantee for any reason whatsoever.

Who's to say the world class developer get's run over by a bus, and the project is finished by some 11 year old who's never been near a plane in its life, much less developed worthy payware for flight simulation?

Mind you, if you would, I have a bridge you'd be interested in...:jump:

[Sundog]

I've thought about this. If it's for something a bit more esoteric, I would say yes. If it's going to be mainstream, then I think a poll would be fine.

Add me to the camp that would love a good Ju-88.

[Rattler]

I would pay upfront only if there was some sort of Guarantee that The Product would be Delivered at a Set time, Kinda hard to do it would seem in the World of Flightsim, But It would Really have to be a Plane I am Really Wanting....:salute::salute::salute:

[AndyE1976]

Only with a developer that offers a full money back guarantee for any reason whatsoever.

Who's to say the world class developer get's run over by a bus, and the project is finished by some 11 year old who's never been near a plane in its life, much less developed worthy payware for flight simulation?

Mind you, if you would, I have a bridge you'd be interested in...:jump:

Firstly, there would be no money changing hands unless you chose to pre-pay - which personally I wouldn't favour and secondly I envisaged this being offered by the sort of companies that consistently produce first rate products such as Aerosoft and IRIS - the sort of company that irrespective of who works on the product will ensure a quality outcome.

If the product never arrives you never pay (as is the case with Amazon) and you'd be able to cancel the pre-order at any time.

I would only see this being worth while for the aircraft that aren't mainstream and that wouldn't get made unless there was a viable financial case for it.

Obviously this is all theoretical, but I think the underlying question of how to make a non-mainstream aircraft financially viable is valid.

[Snave]

Firstly, there would be no money changing hands unless you chose to pre-pay - which personally I wouldn't favour and secondly I envisaged this being offered by the sort of companies that consistently produce first rate products such as Aerosoft and IRIS - the sort of company that irrespective of who works on the product will ensure a quality outcome.

If the product never arrives you never pay (as is the case with Amazon) and you'd be able to cancel the pre-order at any time.

I would only see this being worth while for the aircraft that aren't mainstream and that wouldn't get made unless there was a viable financial case for it.

Obviously this is all theoretical, but I think the underlying question of how to make a non-mainstream aircraft financially viable is valid.

I think the answer is: First you make it, you make it GOOD, you support it RIGHT. Then they will come...

Lionhearts Skylark, Ants P2002, Aerosofts Hughes H-1 all epitomise the: "quality will ALWAYS find a market" ethos... and are all products which I didn't know I wanted, much less missed in flight sim! :wiggle:

It is no coincidence, nor is there any need for pre-payment. If the developer has confidence in the product, and the customer confidence in the developer, then money will change hands.

I have no use for military jets, but even I bought the Albatros..!

[XLR8]

You know I have sort of did this . I emailed several Dev's and said I would defiantly by a F-22 Raptor ...I got a email from what was Alphasim saying they were about 80% done with theres...

[peter12213]

NO ... Alphasim C-17/CS B-52 tought me several lessons ... would I pre-order from my company who deal with putting people into houses YES ... but not from Flight Sim Dev's at all they are always late and never up to what you expect!
AND just before i get any stick, i'm an end user have been for so many years and never claim to have anything to do with developing but from an outspoken endusers opinion ..... there all late and worse than when your girlfriend utters those scary words!

[Sundog]

Just for reference, David Brice would probably be able to answer this better than anyone, because he has done this before. I don't recall which incarnation it was done under, but for a while he had a package where you paid for a "year" and received every aircraft that was released that year. Granted, development time was bit faster as it was for FS9, but I received many aircraft that way.

My guess is it was more problematic for him than it was for me, as some of the product was delayed, but I still received it. David did a great job of supporting me (I can't speak to the experience of others) with the products released to me over the annual subscription.

Now, I could see something like this to support certain developers. There is a toy company (Art toys, i.e. limited edition) maker where you can buy a subscription for the year, but you can only buy it on one day of the year and you get a limited edition toy, a t-shirt, a membership card, and a 20% discount throughout the year on all releases.

So, I could see a developer making a limited edition aircraft only available to "subscribers" with a discount throughout the year on all releases, providing there is a minimum number of releases relative to the cost of the subscription.

[Stratobat]

I would only see this being worth while for the aircraft that aren't mainstream and that wouldn't get made unless there was a viable financial case for it.

Obviously this is all theoretical, but I think the underlying question of how to make a non-mainstream aircraft financially viable is valid.

It's all about the presentation these days and I think that if a group of guys got together and decided to work primarily on less than mainstream aircraft they would probably be very successful.

Just a quick example of this could be the Gloster E.28/ 39 Pioneer and the Heinkel He-178. Both aircraft were flown during World War Two as experimental test platforms and both aircraft are relatively unknown, yet they both played a pivotal role in pioneering jet powered flight in Britain and Germany.

On their own they might not sell very well but if you were to create a "Jet Pioneers" or "Counterparts" series box set of sorts, they could perhaps appeal to a wider audience.

What I'm getting at is that one would need to be innovative but that does not mean that less than mainstream cannot work. Maybe I'm way off base though.

Regards,
Stratobat

[peter12213]

Just for reference, David Brice would probably be able to answer this better than anyone, because he has done this before. I don't recall which incarnation it was done under, but for a while he had a package where you paid for a "year" and received every aircraft that was released that year. Granted, development time was bit faster as it was for FS9, but I received many aircraft that way.

I know what you mean IRIS owe me a Eurofighter I won one during a silly facebook comp and I know how much hard work goes into these models but still, doesnt stop our very fragile aviator ego's being bruised does it, not leaset out aviators wallets! Iris are the most reliable out of them all though I do admit!

[olaf1924]

The simple answer for me is a big no.

[pilottj]

when Boeing or Airbus announces a new design they often get launch customers. In a sense a preorder is like that. I think for mainstream planes it wouldn't make much of a difference but for more obscure birds I think an unpaid cancelable preorder would be good and would let the developer know if the project is worth it.

If Bill decided to say make a Globe Swift but wasnt sure how 'obscure' it would be, well he could take preorders. If he gets say 30-50+ then it might be worth it. If he only got maybe 3-5 then it might not be worth it based on his own idea of what a good or bad sale is. He would get an idea of how much interest there would be in the project. A poll would accomplish this too but it is limited to this forum or whatever forum hosts the poll. Preorders could come via his website and might be more measurable.

Anyway thats my 2 pesos

[SADT]

I throughly agree with Pilottj, thats an excellent idea, that i'm sure could lead to less mainstream aircraft even being considered :jump:

[roger-wilco-66]

Me thinks that a poll should suffice, because in my eyes a pre-order can only work on a definite release. That is not the right measure to indicate how many users would by a product.

Now pre-ordering a product that would be in development with a definite release, I would not have a problem with if it is a company that turns out good products (like the aforementioned).

Ahhh, and I'd certainly buy a Ju-88 (my grandfather flew them with KG54).

Cheers,
Mark

[Aviator32]

I like what Orbx did recently with 3W5 Concrete - if you pre-ordered you got WA56 Israel's Farm free.

So if Carenado for example were releasing an aircraft and if you pre-ordered you got the Amphib version free when it was released, I would probably jump at the chance.

But for a one off aircraft? It would have to be by a very good developer. Would I pay for Lotus Sim's next product in advance if it helped to ensure it was completed? Absolutely!!

[thunder100]

My elderly friend (93) flew them against Malta and was shot down 2 out of 3 times there by Spitfire's(Italain fighter esscort never showed up)

Recently i had a good old boys Flightsimulator sunday (me 52 years + 3 over 90) and showed them 108-->109-->110->190-->Ju-88 Ito*-->He-111 and He-219 -->177 and apart 108 which they really dig in the 110 and Ju-88 also raised their interest a lot(and of course with all respect to Ito-san there were lots of comments that a 88 and a 177 never flew like this)

Roland

* I had repainted it in my friends colours and had some AI Spit MkV-->was a big moment for the old boy

[hey_moe]

I don't think I would like going in that direction. BTW, their is no such thing as money back guarantee. Any company that folds, closes up..ect..ect you are SOL. Don't get me wrong here, it might not never happen in this case but I have fallen it this pre-pay before and got stuck.

[OleBoy]

I originally said "no" to pre-ordering. But the more I've read through the responses and the subjects related, I would pre-order for specific aircraft I am interested in. Going based that the developer was reputable with a good record.

That said, I'm not interested in all the armed forces hoopla types for the most part. But more of the era that made aviation what is is today. More towards the less modern and sophisticated.

31 replies?? Cripes oh mighty people. Surely there have been more than 31 people view the poll. Get with the program. This is beneficial to us all :173go1:

[AndyE1976]

Thanks oleboy,

I think there would be a few pre-requisites, the two that spring to mind would be that the aircraft being put up for pre-order was something that the company could commit to actually building if enough people pre-ordered and also that the company had a solid reputation for delivering quality products. Also no actual money should change hands until the product is finished.

There's a lot of good stuff coming out at the moment without any change to the way things are sold, but this is one thought for making those 'unviable' projects viable.

Have a good weekend

[ColoKent]

....Fokker F-27A/FH-227/F-27 Maritime I sure would!

What an underrepresented airplane in the FS world!!!!!

Kent :wavey:

[fsafranek]

If it's the right aircraft then yes. But that is a very short list. I might also consider it to encourage a new to payware developer to continue with their project.
:ernae:

[Rattler]

:salute::salute:If it were the Milviz F-15`s, I just Might:salute::salute:

[James]

It would depend on the airplane. I'd pre-order for an XP-79, or an XF5U-1, but not a Bleriot.

[krazycolin]

:salute::salute:If it were the Milviz F-15`s, I just Might:salute::salute:

Send the money in unmarked 20's....

[Francois]

I don't think I would like going in that direction. BTW, their is no such thing as money back guarantee. Any company that folds, closes up..ect..ect you are SOL.

Errrrm.. not true anymore Moe ;-)

Nowadays there are specialized companies that 'take' your participation and will only get the money off your credit card once a project is started... or complete. The money is NOT with the developers in that case, but being held by a third party (at a cost, of course).

I am actually working on such a project, albeit not for FS at this time. It is an interesting concept that has now been embraced by a few companies already.

[falcon409]

Apparently I voted but never commented. Soooooo. . .for my part, there are no guarantees and money being in short supply. . .no, I would never pre-order. There hasn't been an addon yet, even some I was really excited about that was sooooooo important that I would have coughed up the money months in advance on the off chance it might actually see daylight. Release first, then buy!:salute: