Car Guru question

[Wulf190]

I know this is a really stupid question, but here is goes.

Would I have damaged the car if I had the car set is drive then turned off the engine?

I was meeting my family up for dinner and I had my new car (Honda Fit-Automatic trans) stopped in a parking spot. I had set the parking brake, and I was turning off the lights a switches. I admit I was in a rush, and I turning the lights and AC off, then thinking I had set the shifter to park I turned off the engine. I then realized that the key would not come out which is then I looked down and saw that the shifter was still in drive.

I set the shifter to park, turned on the engine, took off the parking break, then set to shifter to drive. Then I put the parking brake back on, shifted to park then turned the engine off, and I was able to get my key back.


After I dinner I went home and played around with my car. I was surprised that the car would let me turn the engine off while set in drive, which it did when I turn the key to turn off the engine, but the key wouldn't come out unless I had the shifter set in park. I also found out that the car won't turn on unless the shifter is in park. I tried to turn the engine on with it set to drive. (I thought that's how I'd turned the engine back on before meeting my family for dinner) I found out that while the starter will spin out, yet it won't start.

Of course when I shut it down for good I did it the right way. But I'm just wondering if I harmed the car at all.


Signed, a worry wort driver.

[gigabyte]

In my younger days I was an auto mechanic, and unless things have changed very drastically with auto computers I would say no you did not damage anything, however you may have found a fault. I say that because you should be able to shut the engine of regardless of what position the shifter is in that is normal (so you can stop a runaway engine - as in the problems recently with Toyota). However the problem you may have just discovered is that the starter should only engage when the shifter is in PARK and in some models Only when the brake is applied as well - some other models will start without the brake, but lock the shifter in park until you hold down on the brake. If this is still under warrenty I would suggest you have it checked by the dealer, you also might want to do a quick read of the owners manual for the starting procedures, they should be there in detail and when you see the service advisor you can say the car is not operating as described in the manual on page ##? which will put you ahead of the majority of customer they normally deal with.

BTW I am not implying you did not read the manual, I am just suggesting you know the section and page #'s from the manual, that will get their attention.

[Wulf190]

Hi Giga, thanks for the reply.

I did a read through the starting procedures when I got back home before I played around with it. It does not say that the car's engine can only be turned off when in park. It only says that the key will only come out of the ignition when the shifter is set to park.


As far as starting, the manual clearly says to make sure that the shifter is set to park before starting the engine. It does not say that the engine will only start if the shifter is set to park, but from my experiment. (I was seeing if I could start the engine when the shifter was set to drive, and my foot was on the brake the whole time). For giggles, I tried moving the shifter out of park with the engine off, It would not move unless I had my foot on the brake and the engine was on. I also tried starting the engine with the shifter set in drive. I turn the key and nothing happens, maybe just the starter engaging with the teeth of the flywheel on the engine.

SO from my experiments, the Honda fit with an auto trans, can only start if the Shifter is set to park, and the driver's foot is on the brake.

[Moparmike]

Yup, that sounds normal (or acceptable) to me. I seriously doubt anything was damaged by shutting down the engine while still in Drive.

With the way some companies electrically interlock things these days, it's fairly easy to require both Park and brake pedal to be engaged before the starter circuit will engage (or even allow the key to turn). Same with the shifter lock mechanism...in your case it sounds like the computer needs feedback that the engine is running and the brake pedal is pressed before the shifter lock will disengage.

The big reason why the automakers have recently been changing things to allow you to start only in park and with the brake applied (or some other "chinese-puzzle" combination of actions) is to keep their lawyers happy and their customers safe(r).
In years past, automatic transmissions had what was called a neutral-safety-switch. You would only be able to start the engine if it was in neutral or park.
A few years before that, many auto transmissions didn't even have a park position so this is where the neutral safety switch came into being. Actually, I know one family member that would've been glad to have a brake-pedal interlock switch on their old 50s Oldsmobile with the early Hydramatic transmission...and the garage wall would've been happier too!

The same goes for manual trannys now too. There are some that have a neutral safety switch that require you to be in neutral plus the typical clutch pedal switch (instead of a brake pedal switch as on an automatic).

Personally, I still prefer the old ways of "the best safety mechanism is mounted between the drivers ears" philosophy...but with everyone as sue happy as they are these days I can understand the confusing contortions that we need to go through to get the car started. :d


What does the owners manual (or all the stickers on the dashboard or visor) say is the required procedure to start your Fit? I know...gasp...****. :)
It goes against everything we're trained to do. That book is the last resort to bail us out in case we really get stumped.
(BTW Wulf, don't take this as a personal attack...I'm thinking more as a commentary on how many different confusing ways that the makers think up to lawyer-proof their products.)

[Rezabrya]

That's actually a security feature on most newer cars today. They don't allow you to take the key out of the ignition unless the car is in park. They do that so youd on't accidentally leave it in drive and watch it roll away as soon as you get out of the car. No it will not damage anything. I have done it myself a few times.

[OBIO]

I too have shut off my engine while in Drive a number of time...no damage done...unlike the time I put my old S-15 Jimmy 4X4 in PARK while doing 15 mph. That did some damage! Have no idea what the heck I was thinking.....or not thinking....when I did that.

OBIO

[Cazzie]

Been there, done that, worn out many a T-shirt!

Naw Wulf, you're fine. Of course in my past all my trannies have been manual, so it didn't matter.

On the Fit and congratulations on your choice, I have been happily motoring in a 2007 Fit Sport for four years now, not one problem as yet. It is quite amazing how much stuff one can get in a Fit. It is an amazing car for its size. And it is most fun to drive, isn't it? Another good thing about my Fit, the doors will not lock unless I do them with the key or the auto-lock button on the key, perfect for ADD people like me who always locked themselves out in the most inappropriate places! I can't lock myself out of the Fit unless I loose my keys!

Caz

[Tom Clayton]

Tim, your post reminds me of something that happened WAY back in the day! I was in an apprentice program working at a GM dealership. The "tech" (if you can call him that) in the next stall was working on a 4x4 truck with the old style transfer case. He want to back it out - stuck the thing in reverse and nothing happened. The engine revved, but he wasn't going anywhere. He stuck it in park - GRIIIIIIIIIIIIND-CLUNK! He tried it again a couple more times with the same result. I tried to tell him that the transfer case was in neutral, but he wouldn't listen. He finally gave up and went to get the shop foreman for assistance. While he was gone, I reached in and slipped the transfer case back into 2WD. Of course, when he got back with the foreman, everything was working right and he looked like the idiot he really was!

[Willy]

1974 model US cars had a federally required seat belt interlock system that wouldn't let you start the car unless the seat belt was fastened. I had a '74 Vega that had it, and when it quit working, I disconnected and jumpered it out so I could start the car. It was only on that one year and dropped for the 1975 models as it was a very unpopular feature back then.

[gigabyte]

While he was gone, I reached in and slipped the transfer case back into 2WD. Of course, when he got back with the foreman, everything was working right and he looked like the idiot he really was!

Tom that is a classic shop move, I do recall a few of those from my days in small and large auto shops, there was always a "Shop Dunce" and they were always good for a laugh when they did or allowed something stupid to be done to them. I can't count the number of times we blocked a tail pipe (if you recall teh "Banna in the tail pipe" from Beverley Hills Cop) or even better fastened a condom over the end of the tail pipe (they make one heck of a loud noise when they pop - and they can expand to huge proportions...lol).

Man I pulled some nasty tricks back then, crossing the horn relay to the brake light switch, wipers to the turn signal, and the classic of dropping a fully charged condensor inside a guys coveralls and watch him get an 80,000 volt wake-up jolt...lol

Thanks for reminding me of those good times ROTFLMAO...

[Moparmike]

Yeah, but did you ever send the "shop dummy" down the street to the local auto parts store to get a bolt stretcher? And did he go?

A friend of mine used to work at our local GM dealer and he did pull that one on the new "detailer/oil-change specialist". The poor kid was fresh out of high school and just recently weaned from his Nintendo...not sure what ever gave him the itch to want to be an auto-mech.


Willy, don't get me started on that seat-belt interlock relay fiasco...
Had a like-new 74 Dart Sport that still had it functional when I bought it back in '91. I learned about that sucker the hard way too...in a Shopko parking lot, 60 miles from home, and not enough tools in the trunk to bypass it. Luckily, the mopar interlock relays had this little spud you could push with a pencil to bypass them. Grrr.............another case of waiting until the very last minute to ****! :d

[stuartcox]

Strange...!
You all want to be a pretend pilot, and some are real pilots, but you can't handle a car key!?:jump:
Get a manual drive, that should be a challenge!

[TeaSea]

Strange...!
You all want to be a pretend pilot, and some are real pilots, but you can't handle a car key!?:jump:
Get a manual drive, that should be a challenge!

Ahhh, but it's the normal things that confuse us, not the complicated things....

You train a portion of your brain to execute routine actions without constant thought. That's so your upper level functions can focus on more important matters while the lower level functions manage the routine. What gets us in trouble....and this applies to flying....is any interuption to the routine process. That's why checklists are so important in aviation. I know how to start the engine up in my car, and my plane, but in my plane I follow the checklist by the letter (in my plane the errors can be catastrophic, in my car just annoying). I point out the oddly high number of aircraft that continue to land with their gear up.

I catch myself overlooking stuff all the time...hence the checklist.

Simularly, I once caught myself unzipping my fly in front of the refrigerator with the 'fridge door open....now, what routine function did I mess up??

Wulf, your car was designed to operate in the fashion you described, and you've done no damage. I'm a bit suprised that you ran into this concern being of the generation born after many of these features were introduced....since it's usually us older boneheads that forget you "can't start the car without your foot on the brake", or, "vehicle must be in park to start or retrieve your key" seeing as how back in the day we could do all kinds of nasty un-safe things (my brother regularly drove his car into the lake behind our house -- or let it roll down the hill into the lake--either one).

However, you are saved in that I asked my son (23 yrs) about these things and he said he'd never really thought about it and didn't realize you couldn't remove the key from the ignition in any gear of an automatic. Therefore I have decided you are a pioneer amongst your generation and should be recognized as going beyond the norm into parts unknown well ahead of your peers. Therefore, I congratulate you.

You sir, are destined for greatness...or at least to drive a Honda for a bit. Please don't let it roll down the hill into the lake (like my brother's Honda).

[Tom Clayton]

Hey Mike, the one I told you about wasn't the worst one. I worked with another one that tried to get rid of a bee by combining lighter and a can of carburetor cleaner - inside the service bay!!!

[gigabyte]

Yeah, but did you ever send the "shop dummy" down the street to the local auto parts store to get a bolt stretcher? And did he go?

OMG the memories, yes Mike I had a real hoot with a "Shop Dummy", he was really a Smart A$$ and had it comming and we gave it to him. This was when I was working in a general repair shop owned by a Taxi company so we always had lots of work, and one driver fancied himself as a great mechanic... he had no training and told us "book learning" was a waste of time. He got real "Buddy Buddy" with one of the owners who had 20 or so cars on the road and convinced the guy he could rebuild the engine on his prized 67 Caddie, all he needed was a bay and tools, and he would do it for half our normal labour rate. Myself (a 3rd year apprentice at that time) and the other full time Mechanic were told to give him the end bay and let him have what he needed. It took him 14 hours to pull the engine - I could have done it in 6 or less. We then watched in total amazement as he stripped down the engine just throwing parts in a box until he had the block with the crank and pistons on the engine stand, he could not figure out why the pistons would not come out no matter how hard he tried... finally after a full day of messing with the pistons I offered the suggestion that he might try removing the ring ridge, considering the engine had over 500,000 miles on it there was no way the pistons would come out any other way. I was not going to bother telling him he could pull the crank and take them out through the bottom, that was book learning after all...lol. He fussed about it but ended up agreeing he would have to take my advice, and asked to borrow my Ring Ridge Remover (for those who don't know yes it is a real tool), I pointed to the sticker on my tool chest "I make my living with these tools don't even think of asking to borrow one" and said sorry that ain't gonna happen. I did offer to tell him where he could buy his own (you know where this is going) and told him I would even let him use my name to get the trade discount. He took it hook line and sinker, I wrote it out so he could get the proper one for the Caddie Engine - "Snap-Out Reversable Ring Ridge Remover, for a GM 352 Cleveland engine", I added that he should get the Hemi Piston Kit and Valve seat ridge adaptor as well... I was so helpful that I told him the best place in town to get this tool was a shop in the north end and to tell them I sent him to pick it up for me so he would get my discount proce - and he was off like a shot... He didn't make it to the light before I call my buddies at the Auto supply shop and primed them, of course when he arrived they had just sold the last one, but if it was for "Mike" they would call the other store (20 miles away) and ask them to hold one if he wanted... and away he went. By the time he got there he was shocked to find out there was one guy on the counter who did not get the message and had sold the "Special" ring ridge remover... but they were sure he could get it at another place... my friends had him running most of the day and he never found the tool. We finally relented and told him to pull the crank and take them out through the bottom.

The sad part was he just threw everything in a box, main bearing caps, push rod caps, all the lifters and valves, and after having the block bored and installing new pistons he threw it back together. If you know about rebuilding engines the bearing caps MUST be matched, you can't switch them around, so once everything was put together and back in the car the engine was seized tight, no way in the world it was turning over...

The next day the owner of the car stopped by and seen the mess ... I thought, I mean I really thought he was going to kill the kid, he went after him with a tire iron from the bay and if the Caddie owner had of been in better shape it would have been a real mess.

I never thought it would go that far and the Caddie owner paid a high price for putting faith in this "know it all" but it was his choice to make, we ended up swapping the useless engine out for a rebuilt and that Caddie was still on the road in 1978 when I left the shop. I never did see the "Back Yard Mechanic" again, but we had more than a few laughs about his quest for the Ring Ridge Remover...lol

[SpitXIV]

Hey Mike, the one I told you about wasn't the worst one. I worked with another one that tried to get rid of a bee by combining lighter and a can of carburetor cleaner - inside the service bay!!!

Tom,

I would have pointed at him and said "You out of the gene pool"