Russian Aces over Korea

[bearcat241]

I've been in Korea lately (from my desktop - imagine that :icon_lol:) working on the new Section 8 Sabre and other subjects. Came across this while doing some F-86 reading. Interesting article...thought it might be something to save for those who haven't seen it yet.

http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html

[miamieagle]

Bear241 we can never believe everything we have been told. The facts are that we won the war as far as Iäm concern. North Korea was not able to conquer South Korea and enslave its People.

We could not have won that war if it where not for the fact that we control the air war. Now the Devil is in the detail. No Nation or society has ever written the truth and nothing but the truth about a historical event. Its probably not true that we ever shot down as many Migs as we have been told nor the Russians have as many Aces as they told their society. The truth is some where in between.

Thats the way it is. Even official Documents are not the ultimate truth teller. They are written by humans and are prown to mistakes and political manipulations.

We always have to look at the bigger picture and make our own mind as objective as possible of what may have really happen in certain historical moment in history.

This is just a opinion!:mixedsmi:

[gavinc]

working on the new Section 8 Sabre and other subjects.

Hey BC - Does the S8 Sabre even convert? I took one look at the shots in FS2004 and figured it was too complicated & modern to make the transition back to CFS2. I am about to drop it into FSX and give it a spin.

Gavin

[bearcat241]

Miami, you're pretty much iterating my own view on such hysterical articles. In this case, the authors have clearly injected a strong disclaimer for the accuracy of Russian combat records and i have to stand with them on this -- not because of my own patriotism, but simply because of the fact that these "aces" weren't even supposed to have been involved in Korean war aerial combat according to the Kremlin during the conflict and many years following. Now after so many years of classified secrecy about their involvement, the Kremlin expects us to believe these "claims" (this kinda stuff wasn't even discussed for 40 years after Korea). Had the Russian government been more open about their front-line involvement DURING the actual conflict, i might be more prone to accept some measure of these claims myself...i too think its a lot of hype.

On the other hand, in spite of my patriotism, i'm well aware of my own government's many inconsistencies in military recording - so this thing can cut both ways. You simply can't know it all, so believe what you will.

Gavin, the bird will basically convert, but its an animation nightmare. As Jan himself once told me, "its loaded with XML animations from the intake to the exhaust outlet"...:icon_lol:...and true enough, i'm finding this XML stuff to be extremely challenging, just reassigning the animations to CFS2 compatibility. I got it all down to about 98% now in scasm. The last thing is keeping the XML-controlled pilot from ghosting as soon as the gear is up - lots of linked code to work out. Should be finished in about another day or so.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v85/bearcat241/Demo%20shots/0002Large.jpg


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[EC_ILO]

:jawdrop:

[miamieagle]

I apologies for the way I wrote my post. I was trying to make a point. It was not written to point it at you since you had not made any opinion on your original post.

I too love the USA and its Constitution and the rights we all enjoy!

Great looking panel and plane. Thank you for sharing it with us!:jump:

:ernae:

[bearcat241]

I apologies for the way I wrote my post. I was trying to make a point. It was not written to point it at you since you had not made any opinion on your original post.

Hey, no apologies necessary here, buddy...really, i didn't take your comments as a personal jab in any way. The point of my original post was just to engage dialogue on the subject without submitting an initial opinion of my own. As for agreement, like i said, we're more or less on the same page. :d

CheerZ!

[Bill Kestell]

Hey, Pard!

First ... WHAT A SABRE!!!!! HOLY COW!!!

Second ... I should be able to get my hands on a stick FINALLY ... mid to later this coming week! OH HAPPY DAYS!!!!!

Cheers,

Billy

[Tango_Romeo]

I've been in Korea lately (from my desktop - imagine that :icon_lol:) working on the new Section 8 Sabre and other subjects. Came across this while doing some F-86 reading. Interesting article...thought it might be something to save for those who haven't seen it yet.

http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html


....this was among a large number of articles I went through during Korean research a few years back.

What's good about the article is the disclaimer that some folks overlook near the beginning:

Despite the secrecy surrounding Soviet operations in Korea and the lack of need to inflate the tally for propaganda purposes, several factors helped overstate Russian scores:


Many Soviet medium and high-ranking officers wanted to gain favour with the Soviet dictator Josif Stalin (well known for killing or deporting Soviet generals who failed in accomplish his wishes), and one way to do so was to inflate the score of the MiG regiments in Korea.
The Soviet pilots earn 1,500 additional rubles for every air victory they were credited with. It is quite likely that there were many false claims, just for the money.
The gun camera images of the MiG-15 were of such poor quality, that the Russian guncamera analysts decided that if a US plane appeared in a pic, then they would credit a "kill," even when they did not notice shell strikes, smoke, or an ejection.

If we add to such factors the usual overclaiming -in good faith, but overclaiming in the end- of any war, then we can understand why the Soviet 64th IAK claimed the unbelievable figure of 1,106 UN aircraft destroyed in the Korean War. (532 of them in the "Honcho Period," when only 142 Allied aircraft were actually downed by the Soviet MiG-15 pilots). So, many of those scores must be seen with a lot of skepticism, e.g: Mikhail Ponomaryev was credited with 11 kills, but when we analyze the dates of his claims, only 2 matched with admitted US losses! And he is not the only one.


:ernae:

[miamieagle]

Good point TR!

This things also happen to all the Airforces of World war two!

Thats the reason all said about claims been made in any airwar should be call tales of the airwar.You never truely know if they are true or the claimer though what he saw was true. There also a lot of propaganda by all Nations when it comes to its Aiforces prownes.

I just want for most members of this forum to be open minded when they read claims been made by individuls or a particular Airforces in any historical event!

[miamieagle]

Air war are very fast and complex and very difficult to confirm claims by both sides. Just take the Battle of Britain. Both sides made many wild claims that later on had to be corrected.

If the the Germans claims during the Battle of Britain would have been true the British would not had a AirFroce to fight back by the middle of September. They would have won the Battle. They did not.

The British also made world wide exagarated claims against the the German as well. I believe they well intended claims not just inteded propaganda but that is just the nature of the airwar in any time period.

Even today we are more than capable to exagerate our war claims even with our more modern equipment.

I personaly do not beleve that any pilot shot down 350 planes while flying in only in half a war period when the allies pilot already had improve their capabilities. His record is verify by the World comunity just because he belongs to a particular Airforce. Every Ace claims no matter from what Airforce he belongs to should be taken with a healthy historical grain of salt.

This post is not intended to demeanor the accomplishment of any pilot or Airforce in particular. This men where extremly brave and skifull pilots that we admire so much that we truely try to duplicated their accomplish missions through this and other Sims without ever risking our lives like they did. Its only been written to give its member a better prespective on finding the truth when one reads about historical events.

Its just my opinion.

The opinion of others is welcome as far as Iäm concern!:ernae: