Germany catches Google red handed at massive spying

[KOM.Nausicaa]

Germany catches Google spying on W-LAN and WiFi settings of all households as Google cars drove by for Google Street View. Seems this has been ongoing in all nations and for years where Google Street View was recorded.
So the question; What does Google want with massive thousandfold W-LAN and WiFi data collections ?? Is that nice free Google Street View just an alibi to record a whole different set of data for a yet unknown use for Google? Google calls this massive data collection " a technical mistake"...a mistake for years, yeah right!

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/05/google-street-view-cams/

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/0,1518,694885,00.html
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/wifi-data-collection-update.html

[Ken Stallings]

This really angers and concerns me!

I was already upset that Google was going around taking pictures of nearly everyone's private residences and then indexing them by street address -- just so internet surfers can barge in on your home without invitation! I have always been concerned that Google was going too far into people's privacy.

Now to add this spying onto the issue is simply too much.

I really do not care how "insignificant" the information collected was. That's not the point. The point is that a private agency is caught doing stuff that neither the CIA nor FBI can legally do without a court authorized search warrant!

These guys need to be smacked down hard, very hard!

Ken

[Wing_Z]

I'll admit to being uneasy about Streetview too...
This is exactly what privacy laws are about, though:
not to prevent Good Guys from doing Good Stuff, but to catch Bad Guys abusing it.

It's what keeps democratic governments honest, too - the thought that the next lot in power would have the same set of powers...

[PRB]

One of the local cable TV stations here is run by Washington State University, and they air lectures on various things. I like watching the ones on computer science, and one of them featured a guy from Google, talking about the technology and future of search engines. During the Q&A, one student asked if something, I forget what, was “possible.” The guy answered the question in an interesting way. “Lots of things that are possible, we don't so”, he said. “For example, it's possible to track your browsing habits in such as way as to be able to suggest things to search for on Google, based on what Google 'knows' about you. We don't do that”, he said, because one of our guiding principles at Google is 'don't be creepy', and that would be creepy.” Do you suppose the “bar” which distinguishes “creepy” from “non-creepy” has shifted over time at Google HQ?

[KOM.Nausicaa]

The point is that a private agency is caught doing stuff that neither the CIA nor FBI can legally do without a court authorized search warrant!

You are absolutely right - this stuff would make the KGB pale in the face with envy...I cant believe what Google says about this on their own blog: A "technical mistake, caused by a single guy". That is how you make scapegoats! Except it was going on for years.

Quote from Google blog:


Quite simply, it was a mistake. In 2006 an engineer working on an experimental WiFi project wrote a piece of code that sampled all categories of publicly broadcast WiFi data. A year later, when our mobile team started a project to collect basic WiFi network data like SSID information and MAC addresses using Google’s Street View cars, they included that code in their software—although the project leaders did not want, and had no intention of using, payload data.

[Panther_99FS]

Exactly why I refuse to use Google Desktop/Chrome, etcetera....

[Skittles]

I don't see why people are bothered about streetview.

Thousands of people drive past and see my house on a daily basis. Why does it matter that there's a relatively low resolution photo of it on the internet? Because the crims will benefit? Benefit from what, looking at a photo taken from a publicly accessible road?

As for the information collected, it is a completely unusable and random data set. It means nothing in the slightest. I can perfectly legally take my phone out of my pocket sat here in my dining room and see the SSID's and the Mac address of the houses either side of me. Am I now partaking in a surveillance program? No harm no foul.

[Ken Stallings]

I don't see why people are bothered about streetview.

Thousands of people drive past and see my house on a daily basis. Why does it matter that there's a relatively low resolution photo of it on the internet? Because the crims will benefit? Benefit from what, looking at a photo taken from a publicly accessible road?

As for the information collected, it is a completely unusable and random data set. It means nothing in the slightest. I can perfectly legally take my phone out of my pocket sat here in my dining room and see the SSID's and the Mac address of the houses either side of me. Am I now partaking in a surveillance program? No harm no foul.

Because I bet the thousands of people who pass by your house have little idea who lives there, and even less idea to do anything criminal.

However, exposing your house by visual, with your address, to the billions of internet users the world over suddenly increases the odds of nefarious actions, wouldn't you say?

Cheers,

Ken

[Skittles]

Because I bet the thousands of people who pass by your house have little idea who lives there, and even less idea to do anything criminal.

However, exposing your house by visual, with your address, to the billions of internet users the world over suddenly increases the odds of nefarious actions, wouldn't you say?

Cheers,

Ken

I don't think so, but if you feel that way that's fair enough.

It's a photograph of what is completely visible from a main road. Anyone on earth could come and have a look at your house. Osama Bin Laden could come and stand outside and have a good gander.

I don't think criminals sit around going up and down roads on google earth all day, if only due to the fact that the images are poor resolution at any decent level of zoom, and that if they were going to rob a house they're not going to do it based on a google photograph taken years ago, they ALWAYS go to the house and scope it out.

I'd say the chance of a criminal walking past my house on the sidewalk and getting a good look is MUCH higher than some random crimbob surfing the net and deciding to rob somewhere.

Each to their own of course, I can kind of understand why people feel their privacy has been violated but personally I don't feel that way.

The best way I can summarize is to suggest that you find your house on streetview, and see whether it offers ANY benefits whatsoever as opposed to having a casual walk through the neighbourhood and seeing it properly.

[Ken Stallings]

Professional theives case homes and now they can use the internet to select homes at a vastly faster rate. That is just one aspect.

There are other theats out there.

Make no mistake, putting such details on the internet in methods easy for people worldwide to search and index has provided criminals free tools to assist in their efforts. At the top of the pinnacle are terrorists.

Not everyone in the world can afford high quality security systems. Google obviously put their profit options ahead of any observations along those lines!

The internet remains at this time an overall positive, but unfortunately the distance between overall negative versus positive has gotten smaller. In my view, no internet search engine should be able to provide people an option for photos of any home in America with or without the permission of the homeowner. I'm not niave enough to believe the genie can be put back in the bottle.

But, to then have these same companies engage in activities illegal for any law enforcement agency in the free world is a bridge too far for me. It's too much and these people need to go straight to jail.

Ken

[Lionheart]

That's nothing. In phoenix the city government have a new 'intelligence' system that watches cars going through intersections with the tons of traffic cameras and they computers calculate your daily routes, and run your plates, etc. They track people that have outstanding tickets, etc. It was big news here and then mysteriously went quiet.

London developed a street camera system for tracking people and cars via directions on the streets. Seems like Phoenix has gone a step further.

If you don't mind living under a magnifying glass, and a qustionable sheriff, move here, lol...


Bill

EDIT: sorry about the mis-spellings. Learning to type on the new iPad screen keyboard.

[tigisfat]

That's nothing. In phoenix the city government have a new 'intelligence' system that watches cars going through intersections with the tons of traffic cameras and they computers calculate your daily routes, and run your plates, etc. They track people that have outstanding tickets, etc. It was big news here and then mysteriously went quiet.

London developed a street camera system for tracking people and cars via directions on the streets. Seems like Phoenix has gone a step further.

If you don't mind living under a magnifying glass, and a qustionable sheriff, move here, lol...


Bill

Many cities are installing a net of acoustic sensors that can pinpoint sound. They are using it to pre-empt people's needs for help, and more specifically they can pinpoint gunshots and dispatch officers to the exact place. I know that the system is in Chicago and Redwood City, CA. It's based on an old military system that can allegedly (entering the realm of the superstitious here)pinpoint and track voices, footsteps, just about anything that makes sound. The civilian version is advertised as having a filter that 'prevents' private info from being detected.

[stiz]

Professional theives case homes and now they can use the internet to select homes at a vastly faster rate. That is just one aspect.


i can walk into several of our local estate agents, look at a brouchur for a house, see recent photos of the outside far better than i can on google, get a plan layout of it and pictures of what it has inside and take it home to study and even ask to view it to boot!

I cant see what the big hoo har is about it really, like skittle i get tons of people walking past my place and the google street view is "old" to put it kindly. If a burgular was seriouse in robbing your house they'd check it out first and not rely on google and you can bet that most burgulars will have a dam good idea about potential targets in his area anyway, they dont just walk round and go "o i'll rob that place tonight" :kilroy:

[Toastmaker]

Ken, when a burglar "cases" a house or building, he's not concerned about the structure beyond a quick determination of an entry point. What they look for are human movement patterns, ie; when the people leave and how long are they gone.

The vast majority of residential buglaries in the USA take place during the day - on weekdays, while people are at work/school. Burglars are, like most criminals, cowards and pragmatists at the same time. They do not want any confrontation with residents at all.

Looking at a picture of your house on Google gives little or no info to a thief.

:running:

[MaddogK]

I found a site that will trace your IP addy, and show you a google map of your house.

Thanks google.
:(

[kilo delta]

I found a site that will trace your IP addy, and show you a google map of your house.

Thanks google.
:(

Hmmm...try mine

<----------


:d

[KOM.Nausicaa]

As for the information collected, it is a completely unusable and random data set. It means nothing in the slightest. I can perfectly legally take my phone out of my pocket sat here in my dining room and see the SSID's and the Mac address of the houses either side of me. Am I now partaking in a surveillance program? No harm no foul.

Wrong. According to latest findings of the German Ministery of Consumer Protection, Google has also recorded private e-mail traffic and other data from unsecured WiFi and W-Lan connections while driving by for Google Street View.

Make no mistake guys. A super internet corporation like Google, that collects secretly massive worldwide data sets on, guess what, internet behavior of their "clients" - and this since 9 years - you think that is a innocent mistake, because some guy installed a little program he shouldn't have installed ? Don't make me laugh.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

no internet search engine should be able to provide people an option for photos of any home in America with or without the permission of the homeowner.

I agree, and that is why this option is now put to law in Germany before Google can publish street view in Germany.

I also want to make clear that I like street view. It's fun and educational. You can see what the street or the neighborhood is like of the hotel you want to book or the house to buy. You can plan vacations. It can help you learn about other cultures and countries. Whats New York like? Whats Tokyo or Berlin like ? Show Beijing to your kids... Google Earth and Street View are fun and you learn stuff. I think this is great.
I do however share Ken's concerns too. This kind of information can - and will - be used by the wrong people. As it has always happened with every tool in the history of humanity.

[Bjoern]

C'mon Google, try to break into my wireless...:>

WPA2-PSK with a 50+ letter passphrase and a MAC filter´should keep them busy for a fairly long time.

[kilo delta]

WPA2-PSK with a 50+ letter passphrase and a MAC filter

Same here...not impossible to hack, but enough to put off the amateurs. :)

[Ken Stallings]

I agree, and that is why this option is now put to law in Germany before Google can publish street view in Germany.

I also want to make clear that I like street view. It's fun and educational. You can see what the street or the neighborhood is like of the hotel you want to book or the house to buy. You can plan vacations. It can help you learn about other cultures and countries. Whats New York like? Whats Tokyo or Berlin like ? Show Beijing to your kids... Google Earth and Street View are fun and you learn stuff. I think this is great.
I do however share Ken's concerns too. This kind of information can - and will - be used by the wrong people. As it has always happened with every tool in the history of humanity.

I agree completely! Street view is a great concept for businesses and government offices where people have a need or desire to go to transact business.

The error what when Google was allowed to post residences.

I believe Germany is further ahead of where the United States should go. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle, but rational limits can be placed. Some mentioned about real estate sites. But, again, these points miss the essential point. People choose to put their homes on the market and they choose whether to list their homes online.

Google never gave anyone a choice at all. They just invaded my privacy for a profit motive.

And they never even sent me any proceeds!

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Ken, when a burglar "cases" a house or building, he's not concerned about the structure beyond a quick determination of an entry point. What they look for are human movement patterns, ie; when the people leave and how long are they gone.

The vast majority of residential buglaries in the USA take place during the day - on weekdays, while people are at work/school. Burglars are, like most criminals, cowards and pragmatists at the same time. They do not want any confrontation with residents at all.

Looking at a picture of your house on Google gives little or no info to a thief.

:running:

Toast,

I am certainly aware of what a complete casing must require. However, Google Street View allows criminals a very easy and secretive means to cull out prospective homes based upon the photos provided.

Criminals can then solicit out candidates that have optimal sight line blocks that would allow them to break in unobserved, while at the same time, cull out those homes with unobstructed sight lines from the street. They can also decide which homes are located such that multiple avenues of escape are present, and cull out those with too many dead ends, or with police stations too close.

In addition, the criminals can select homes based upon the presumed wealth contained inside the home. A photo can tell a lot about the lifestyle of the occupants.

Before Street View, criminals had no other choice but to get in a car and cruise slowly through a residential area to case out locations. Just the mere way they had to do this sometimes alerted residents, who contacted cops, who tracked them down and detoured a crime before it even took place.

Street View allows criminals to do it on a computer safely removed from law enforcement's due deligence. Once they zero in on a few good candidates, they can focus their more detailed on site surveys with a better plan to avoid detection.

Cheers,

Ken

[Panther_99FS]

I need to bronze this thread while I still can....
Ken & Nausicaa banding together in agreement :ques: :d :d :d

[Snuffy]

In ...

Just had to put that out there.

:sleep:

[KOM.Nausicaa]

C'mon Google, try to break into my wireless...:>

WPA2-PSK with a 50+ letter passphrase and a MAC filter´should keep them busy for a fairly long time.

I said they recorded data from non protected wireless. This evening Google has admitted having recorded private data (mail, surfing etc) from those networks. Lets not forget that until now, Google only said it had recorded WLAN name and address. Now it looks already different. The situation worsens by the hour, and those Google activities look more and more suspicious.

[Wing_Z]

There are actually very few things which make our lives easier, that don't also make crims' lives easier...
Think about it: cellphones, fast cars, boats, even submarines! can be subverted to other purposes.
The internet is driven by porn, which I'm assuming wasn't the original intent. So was the DVD industry.
It goes right back to the stone axe.

I like all the amenities and technology of the 21st century enough to accommodate all these things.
Streetview is one of them.
When they are wrongly used, we have the same set of tools and better to fight them.

I would like a cut of the proceeds of having my privacy invaded though
And certainly would love to have some of the alleged technology that allows a drive-by hook in to my WiFi network
I can't get it to light up my laptop without re-entering a 128-bit encryption string, every time! :d
And who uses a nonprotected net for important stuff anyway?

[Bjoern]

Same here...not impossible to hack, but enough to put off the amateurs. :)

If you want it, there's always a way.

So no need for overextensive security.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

Most people have no idea of the billions and billions of dollars which are at stake in the upcoming internet wars between the giants... where Apple, Google, and Microsoft will begin battling for web supremacy...and why almost every step is considered to get an advantage in this war - like for example massive user data collections.

The Dogs of War: Apple vs. Google vs. Microsoft
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/04/the-dogs-of-war-apple-vs-google-vs-microsoft/

How Apple and Google's Romance Turned To Hate
http://gizmodo.com/5483662/how-apple-and-googles-romance-turned-to-hate

[Toastmaker]

I agree, and that is why this option is now put to law in Germany before Google can publish street view in Germany.

I also want to make clear that I like street view. It's fun and educational. You can see what the street or the neighborhood is like of the hotel you want to book or the house to buy. You can plan vacations. It can help you learn about other cultures and countries. Whats New York like? Whats Tokyo or Berlin like ? Show Beijing to your kids... Google Earth and Street View are fun and you learn stuff. I think this is great.
I do however share Ken's concerns too. This kind of information can - and will - be used by the wrong people. As it has always happened with every tool in the history of humanity.





Sorry, but I must inform you that this is not correct. Toggle bolts. I've checked and there is no known recorded incident of toggle bolts ever being used by the wrong people.

Just thought you shoud know. . .

:running:

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I've checked and there is no known recorded incident of toggle bolts ever being used by the wrong people.

You checked ? Maybe you should visit some SM clubs Toast. Now, I didn't actually say that, ok? :d

[stansdds]

This is frighteningly Orwellian.

[Ken Stallings]

Sorry, but I must inform you that this is not correct. Toggle bolts. I've checked and there is no known recorded incident of toggle bolts ever being used by the wrong people.

Just thought you shoud know. . .

:running:

Yes, but if a toggle bolt broke with no one around would it have really broke?

I mean these are heavy concepts we're dealing with here! :mixedsmi:

Ken

[HundertzehnGustav]

but but but... guggel is your friend?
or so my classmates think.
me? not!
watching closely how linux develops...

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I believe Germany is further ahead of where the United States should go.

Hmmmm. It's the same German Ministery of Consumer Protection that refuses clear and easy-to-read declaration of food ingredients. Just to keep the strong food producer's lobby happy.
In my eyes, all this fuzz about Google Street View currently performed is just diversionary tactics to prevent the public from discovering where the true hazards come from.

No - I'm far from being a conspiracy dork. "Fluoridated water? Bring it in!" :d

I really don't care about people staring at the house I live in. They can't get any useful information. Only thing they could get is two cats sitting in the window, staring back. So what?

People using unprotected WLAN also write their PIN at the back of their ATM card. No pity for them!

Cheers,
Markus.

[Bjoern]

People using unprotected WLAN also write their PIN at the back of their ATM card. No pity for them!

Oh, that's clever!

I really should do that. Maybe the thief will have mercy on me on seeing my account balance and actually improve it instead of worsen it. :icon_lol:

[Snuffy]

Yes, but if a toggle bolt broke with no one around would it have really broke?

I mean these are heavy concepts we're dealing with here! :mixedsmi:

Ken

And if that's the case, did it really make a noise when it broke?

[Ken Stallings]

And if that's the case, did it really make a noise when it broke?

These really are deep questions, aren't they?

Ken

[Wing_Z]

Italy and France have joined in the investigation.
Gotta love the Brits: they just asked Google to remove personal data, and left them to it!

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/196667/google_street_view_faces_investigation_in_france_a nd_italy.html

[KOM.Nausicaa]

Google spying second chapter:

German Prosecutors now Investigating Google over Data Capture:

Google is being investigated by prosecutors in Germany on suspicion of violating privacy laws. The move comes after the company admitted to capturing people's private data through its controversial Street View service.

http://tinyurl.com/38hoyro

[demorier]

A couple of years ago I upgraded to broadband internet from an old dial-up account. From what I had seen and heard about WiFi modem/routers at that time there was no way I was going to be in that and payed for an extra telephone line to run the internet access.
A friend of my sister was setting up her business WiFi modems at her home and the inadvertently logged into the house next door.....that sort of thing seemed very common.