Russia's Victory Day parade

[Timm]

Hi Guys,
Just been posted up here in the UK on the BBC online channel some pic's and video of Russia's Victory Day parade (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/8670692.stm) in Moscow. Something that you would never thought possible UK and American troops parading through Red Square (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8669975.stm). The event thought to be costing £26 million also featured a 1,000-strong military band, 161 tanks and missiles and 127 aircraft. Timm

[Scratch]

That is pretty cool! Thanks for posting.

[Ken Stallings]

That's great and nice to see it happen. I hope it can happen each year now!

Ken

[deathfromafar]

Good to see and long overdue. There is also a Allied War Museum in Moscow that of Allied Military equipment and uniforms. This joint recognition and celebration is something many of the old Allied Veterans wanted for some time but sadly the harsh reality of the Soviet System and Stalin(at the time) and followed by the rapidly growing paranoia and difficulties of the Cold War, none of this was possible. Still, I salute the old Russian Veterans and Allied Veterans for not giving up on seeing this day come to pass. :salute:

[Seaking055]

When I watched it I was surprised to hear the USA made the Russian uniforms during WW11, I learn something new every day.

[deathfromafar]

When I watched it I was surprised to hear the USA made the Russian uniforms during WW11, I learn something new every day.

There were many things supplied through the Lend Lease program from the US to the Allied Nations. In most cases the program was well received. In the case of the Soviet Union, it was accepted because of the need but not warmly greeted. The differences between the Soviet and Western systems were quite stark and many older generation former Soviets will tell you that their Government always taught that such a thing(US and West Europe rising to help the Soviet Union) was politically and physically impossible so to speak. This and the fact that Stalin was always leery of the West to outright paranoid at times added all the more difficulty. When the US twisted Stalin's arm to allow US 8th Air Force B-17's and P-51's to be based in Soviet territory(in the Ukraine) Stalin was very unhappy with the arrangement. After a daylight raid one afternoon by the force, a Luftwaffe recon plane tailed the B-17's & P-51's into their Soviet base areas. Later that night the Luftwaffe showed up and bombed all the Soviet airfields where the B-17's and P-51's were at destroying many of them. The Soviet Air Force never mounted a defense and the US Commanders were flatly refused to allow the launch of P-51's at the fields.
In later years some old Kremlin workers noted that Stalin had gotten rid of unwanted guests so to speak. Some say that was the actual beginning of the Cold War. Nonetheless, since that time the Allied Forces never really celebrated the Victory together until now. I am happy to see it happen and I hope it will continue on to become a tradition.

[peter12213]

I can remember watching a program on the History channel or Discovery I can't remember which now, about the allied merchentmen and sailors from the usa and britian delivering supplies to the russian's they would meet Russian women go to dances and alike, on one particular story a russian woman now in her 80's described how one American used to bring her dresses and food's from America, tabacco and other items from Britian, cause this to the beligred Russians at the time who had no real civilian market as it was all military production was amazing, however they said that because these women and some soviet servicemen were mixing with free Americans and Brits the soviet secret police used to torture them for information, and for acting freely, the particular woman mentioned actually had some of her teeth knocked out and her cheek and nose broken, how aweful is that, they were real ba**ards the Russians under Stalin his secret police and whatever else they were called i mean, not most of the population who hated him as much as the Nazi's in some cases!

[Bjoern]

I can remember watching a program on the History channel or Discovery I can't remember which now, about the allied merchentmen and sailors from the usa and britian delivering supplies to the russian's they would meet Russian women go to dances and alike, on one particular story a russian woman now in her 80's described how one American used to bring her dresses and food's from America, tabacco and other items from Britian, cause this to the beligred Russians at the time who had no real civilian market as it was all military production was amazing, however they said that because these women and some soviet servicemen were mixing with free Americans and Brits the soviet secret police used to torture them for information, and for acting freely, the particular woman mentioned actually had some of her teeth knocked out and her cheek and nose broken, how aweful is that, they were real ba**ards the Russians under Stalin his secret police and whatever else they were called i mean, not most of the population who hated him as much as the Nazi's in some cases!

Wow...all in one sentence...my brain hurts...


Anyways, there's photos out there in which soviet people welcome the Wehrmacht like liberators. So...Hitler? Stalin? Same crap, opposide edges of the political spectrum.

[deathfromafar]

Wow...all in one sentence...my brain hurts...


Anyways, there's photos out there in which soviet people welcome the Wehrmacht like liberators. So...Hitler? Stalin? Same crap, opposide edges of the political spectrum.

Yeap! I read this evening that some of the current crop of Communists and some of the Old Guard were enraged at the US and British Troops being in the Parade. I heard some of them state that the US, Britain and other Allied Nations didn't "carry our weight" in the war. Geez, the old Soviet brain washing(Political Directorate/Officers) had a lasting effect. One thing for sure, Stalin never wanted the Soviet people to know the truth about the rest of the war. I am quite glad all the different generations of Russians can now see the unrestrained truth for themselves and after all this time share something we deeply feel about in our mutual Patriotism of those who served our countries in those dark times with great honor, courage, and sacrifice.

[peter12213]

Yeap! I read this evening that some of the current crop of Communists and some of the Old Guard were enraged at the US and British Troops being in the Parade. I heard some of them state that the US, Britain and other Allied Nations didn't "carry our weight" in the war. Geez, the old Soviet brain washing(Political Directorate/Officers) had a lasting effect. One thing for sure, Stalin never wanted the Soviet people to know the truth about the rest of the war. I am quite glad all the different generations of Russians can now see the unrestrained truth for themselves and after all this time share something we deeply feel about in our mutual Patriotism of those who served our countries in those dark times with great honor, courage, and sacrifice.

I Agree though when you think of the number of russians that were slaughtered and the things the Nazi's did to them you can understand why they may think they got it worse or did more than us or the U.S. eitherway the eastern front was not the place to be in those days!

[deathfromafar]

I Agree though when you think of the number of russian that were slaughtered and the things the Nazi did to them you can understand why they may think they got it worse or did more than us or the U.S. eitherway the easter front was not the place to be in those days!

Yeap, was hell on Earth. I read about civilians boiling shoe leather and eating it when there was no food. The conditions were inhumane to say the least. Gives me all the more respect for those who persevered through those times and very thankful for all I've been lucky to have.

[huub vink]

Weird that nobody mentioned the presence of Polish troops during the parade. I personally think this is more surprising (in a positive way) than the presence of the US, British and French troops.

Cheers,
Huub

[Bjoern]

Weird that nobody mentioned the presence of Polish troops during the parade. I personally think this is more surprising (in a positive way) than the presence of the US, British and French troops.

In what way?

Poles fought on both fronts for both parts of the allied army in WW2.

[dominique]

In what way?

.

In 1939, two weeks after Germany invaded Poland from the West, the Soviets did the same from the East and both the Communists and the Nazis divided this unfortunate country between themselves. The USSR shares with Germany the responsability of starting up WW2. A fact that is conveniently forgotten by Russia today. But I bet not in Poland.

[huub vink]

In what way?

The relation between Poland and Russia has always known a lot of ups-and-downs and to say it mildly; Russia wasn't very pleased when Poland joined NATO in the late nineties and Poland wasn't very happy with Russia's reply on that fact......

Cheers,
Huub

[Ken Stallings]

I Agree though when you think of the number of russians that were slaughtered and the things the Nazi's did to them you can understand why they may think they got it worse or did more than us or the U.S. eitherway the eastern front was not the place to be in those days!

To a degree, yes I do understand, but also to a degree I think the outrage expressed by a few is seriously flawed.

Virtually the entire production run of the Kingcobra went to the Soviet Union. The Russians got more Sherman tanks than the British did!

It's not my intent to turn this thread into a referendum on how the war was prosecuted. My real point is that it is sad after all these many years to see these angry statements made as a few made. I think it is equally important to say that I'm sure the vast majority of Russians very much liked the allies sending troops to participate in the parade, and it seems the troops who did said they were treated in the most hospitable way possible.

Cheers,

Ken

[Merkava]

It's a little difference with "fight with enemy" and "protect your country".
When you try to protect YOUR mother, wife, children. When bombing killed them yesterday in town, but you are still alive here in frontline. IT IS the DIFFERENCE. You also have try to understand it sometime.

I don't minimize role of alied forces. Hope you're understand me right. It's not correct to make your opinion by watching TV.

[peter12213]

To a degree, yes I do understand, but also to a degree I think the outrage expressed by a few is seriously flawed.

Virtually the entire production run of the Kingcobra went to the Soviet Union. The Russians got more Sherman tanks than the British did!

It's not my intent to turn this thread into a referendum on how the war was prosecuted. My real point is that it is sad after all these many years to see these angry statements made as a few made. I think it is equally important to say that I'm sure the vast majority of Russians very much liked the allies sending troops to participate in the parade, and it seems the troops who did said they were treated in the most hospitable way possible.

Cheers,

Ken

I meant in no way to undermine the efforts of us Brits and Americans, the sacrifice we made was huge, I just ment at least when we got captured we could at least expect a certain degree of protection afforded by the geneva convention where as the Russian had non of that, Most officers were shot on the spot! Also during the early years of the war before America was involved, we pretty much let the Russians go it alone with regard to actually fighting the Germans, yeah we supplied arms and war materiel, but for years before 1944 Stalin was asking Roosevelt and Churchill for a second front which didn't come until we liberated Africa! As for the Sherman as far as I'm concerned they should have given the Russians them all, the Germans used to call our version the Tommie Lighter! And it was only reasonably good when we fitted our 17 pounder gun into it! The Russians used to call the Lee tank the grave for 7 brothers, shows what they made of our tanks! No comparison to the Russian T34, KV and IS series of tanks!

[Bjoern]

The USSR shares with Germany the responsability of starting up WW2.

Actually no.

France and the UK declared war on Germany only. The Soviet Union just turned the secret addendum of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact into action and occupied the eastern part of Poland when the country practically fell apart at the end of september '39.




The relation between Poland and Russia has always known a lot of ups-and-downs and to say it mildly

Well, understandable from the point that the country was often nothing more than a ball played between Prussia and Russia.

From a first-hand account life in Poland was worse than, let's say in the Soviet Union or East Germany during the "occupation" years from 45 till 91.




As for the Sherman as far as I'm concerned they should have given the Russians them all, the Germans used to call our version the Tommie Lighter! And it was only reasonably good when we fitted our 17 pounder gun into it! The Russians used to call the Lee tank the grave for 7 brothers, shows what they made of our tanks! No comparison to the Russian T34, KV and IS series of tanks!

Plus the british army didn't need as many Shermans since they were very proficient at producing good tanks like the Churchill or Crusader.

I like to call the Sherman the "cardboard tank" since it doesn't stand much of a chance (except in close combat) against anything from a late, long barreled Pz IV up.

[dominique]

Actually no.



Actually yes :). The pact was a green light given to Germany to invade Poland, the price being some spoils of war easily picked up afterwards. It's highly doubtful that Germany would've invaded Poland if Russia would 've garanteed its border like France and the UK on the other side. Russia paid an enormous price in lives for the greed of its leadership in the first place.

[Bjoern]

It's highly doubtful that Germany would've invaded Poland if Russia would 've garanteed its border like France and the UK on the other side. Russia paid an enormous price in lives for the greed of its leadership in the first place.

I'm pretty sure Hitler would have invaded anyways. There was an unpaid bill for both the major players in Poland, namely the loss of territories for the Reich after the treaty of Versailles in 1919 and the loss of the Russo-Polish war in the early 1920s for the Soviet Union.

Actually the pact was born out of the necessity for the Reich to acquire a strong partner to get resources from (for the time being). The time before, ironically, relations between the two big countries were quite good, with the Russians even actively *seeking* closeness to the Reich (despite the latter's active anticommunist activities) as a trade partner.
Also don't forget that the Soviet Union served as a training and R&D ground for the german military right into the 1930s (until Hitler officially broke restictions imposed by Versailles).

So either way, maybe in an fly of appeasement, Hitler offered Stalin a chance for revenge when they drew the borders between their spheres of influence over Poland.
The more content your friend is with you, the less he will expect your backstab later which can give you a *huge* advantage.

[gajit]

I was just thinking the same :ernae:

[deathfromafar]

All I can say is that for one, I am glad Russia made such a gesture. My feelings are we should reciprocate. Last but not least, the most important part of the Victory was that we stopped the Axis Powers and restored Peace. Remembering our History gives us hope we never have to repeat it!

[Bjoern]

I guess all sides learned their lessons from that war and that's the most important thing.

[Ken Stallings]

I guess all sides learned their lessons from that war and that's the most important thing.

A very wise observation! :engel016:

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

All I can say is that for one, I am glad Russia made such a gesture. My feelings are we should reciprocate. Last but not least, the most important part of the Victory was that we stopped the Axis Powers and restored Peace. Remembering our History gives us hope we never have to repeat it!

Another wise observation!

I endorse your desire. I would like to see all the allied nations have these memorial parades using active service military forces from each of the allied nations. Perhaps also, it would be good to have military forces from the three Axis Powers participate also. It would be the ultimate expression that wounds have healed and more importantly that we have learned the lessons so vital to be learned.

Ken

[Bjoern]

Perhaps also, it would be good to have military forces from the three Axis Powers participate also. It would be the ultimate expression that wounds have healed and more importantly that we have learned the lessons so vital to be learned.

It doesn't need a military parade to do that. The signs are everywhere else, e.g. Germany donating used military hardware to Poland, two thirds of the former axis firmly integrated into the EU, pupil exchanges between german and french schools (I took part in one in 10th grade; was very nice), etc...