The Pacific Rim Nifty 50s Jet Challenge, an overview

[Willy]

This is basically where we're at. Our upcoming event will be a subsonic military jet race around the Pacific Rim from Australia to California with mandatory stops at selected airfields in Indonesia, Hong Kong, Japan and Alaska and possibly others. Keep in mind that the rules are being finalized and subject to change.

The Aircraft: Any military jet actually flown with a Max Mach of 1.0 or less in level flight (including prototypes) that was in service before 31 December 1959. No mods to airfiles/aircraft.cfg files unless approved by the race comittee. The usual panel mods as used in the annual RTW are allowed with exceptions as outline below

NavAids: As we are simulating 1950s navigation, No GPS. DR, NDB, VOR, DME along with Winddrift gauges may be used. No moving map type programs.

Start: While we've been shooting for 16 April, I'm thinking a week later (23 April) is more realistic. Probably at 1200Zulu on that date.

Flights: As usual, all flights to be verified using the Duenna program. Flights can be flown in daylight hours, but at least 3 landings must be made at night. Leg lengths and destinations are up to the individual pilot, keeping in mind the mandatory airport stops (To Be Announced Later). You can fly these on your time. Posting of flights will be like last years Evita event.

Event End: Figure at least one month to complete although longer time will be considered depending on how it's going.

Style Points: Style Points will be given but not really count for anything. Earning style points can be done by completion of tricky approaches, screenshots of interesting landmarks, really good tales of daring and pilotage in the Pilot's Lounge thread.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Feel free to post any questions/suggestions in this thread. We want this event to be fun for all.

Willy

[jkcook28]

Sounds fun Willy. Some cool aircraft available in that period...hmmm, let me think now...

[bpfowler]

question: one plane only for the duration of the race?
-------------------------------------------------------------

here's a fun list of planes from the period. LOTS are available for fs9!

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/aircraft-1950-1959.asp


It should be noted that a commercial version of the Vulcan was also in considered but this led to nothing more than completion of a small scale model. The aircraft (designated Type 722 Atlantic) would have seated between 90 and 115 passengers and presented flying speeds just under Mach 1. The idea was dropped due to a lack of interest in the market though the Vulcan in a passenger airliner form would have been quite a sight over commercial airports to say the least.

man that's a dreamy sounding plane.....

[Willy]

Yes, only one per trip. But there's nothing that says that you can't fly it twice with a different aircraft the second time.

[RedGreen]

I already have an idea of what I want to fly.

It's not the fastest choice. It won't catch the F-86s and J-29s that will likely proove popular in this event.

It's not the most practical choice. It may be hard getting into and out of certain airports.

But does it have a ton of charisma and character? Does it have the rumbling thunder of four turbojet engines? Does it belch out enough black smog to make the EPA tear its collective hair out?

Yes, yes, and yes. How can I say no? :wiggle:

[Willy]

Red, I like it. I thought hard about a RAF Comet 2 myself.

On the J-29. Keep in mind that there's two of them that I'm aware of. The J-29B which is subsonic and the J-29F which has an afterburner and will break Mach 1. The J-29F wouldn't be allowed, while the J-29B would.

We'll start an entry thread in a few days.

[Taco]

:salute:Great choice Red, I will also be belching out the good old black smoke! My choice is the Boeing B-47

[smilo]

I may have narrowed my list down to 3;
RB-87 Thunderflash
B-57 Canberra
B-47 Stratojet

am leaning toward the B-47,
but need to practice more short runway landings
before my final decision.

Willy,
thanks for getting this going.
sounds like fun

[Willy]

It's not just me. It's been a team effort with the rest of Flight 19 (MM, Moses03, PRB and Taco).

[smilo]

WTG, Thanks, Guys. :salute:

[RFields]

Time to get out my VQ-1 painted Skywarrior.

VQ-1 was based at Iwakuni in 1955-60 before moving to Atsugi. The Whales arrived in the squadron in the late 50s. The 'Willy Victors' did not come until the early 60s.

I guess for '59 I could overfly Vietnam, but have to stay at least 50 nm from the coast of China and North Korea by squadron SOP. The A-3s still have the tail turret back then, but they tried to avoid air-air engagements.

Depending on the required airports, I might be able to make this flight landing at airports where I have really been in the real world.

[Willy]

I think I've finally got mine picked out. Problem is that to get the version that I want, I'm going to have to paint it myself. Over 6000 of these built, in service in numerous countries, FS model has been out since 2004 and no one has painted a USN version of it other than the one that flew with the Blue Angels.

Hope I can remember how to paint FS aircraft otherwise I'll be flying for the Marines.

[PRB]

I'm either going to fly the B-47, the B-57, the F-89, or the F-86. Unless I fly the A-3. Or the B-66. :icon_lol:

[MaddogK]

Tho it doesn't effect my choice, but a clarification please:

Any military jet actually flown with a Max Mach of 1.0 or less in level flight (including prototypes) that was in service before 31 December 1959If a prototype was tested before the end of 59, but the production model entered service in 1960 I assume I can use, right ?

I ask because it will make the difference between the first version, and the second version with greater range. I won't tell you what I'm choosing, I wanna watch ya's crap your pants when I pull up to the start line.

[Willy]

We're still working on it but right now the way I'd call it is if the prototype was in service (which for a prototype would mean being tested) as of 31 Dec 1959 and it doesn't run afoul of the Max Mach rule, then it should be legal.

O'course if my colleagues have a different idea, I'm all ears.

[Haitun]

I'm going with MiG-15 if the leg range will keep it in.

[smilo]

This is basically where we're at. Our upcoming event will be a subsonic military jet race around the Pacific Rim from Australia to California with mandatory stops at selected airfields in Indonesia, Hong Kong, Japan and Alaska and possibly others. Keep in mind that the rules are being finalized and subject to change.

The Aircraft: Any military jet actually flown with a Max Mach of 1.0 or less in level flight (including prototypes) that was in service before 31 December 1959. No mods to airfiles/aircraft.cfg files unless approved by the race comittee. The usual panel mods as used in the annual RTW are allowed with exceptions as outline below

NavAids: As we are simulating 1950s navigation, No GPS. DR, NDB, VOR, DME along with Winddrift gauges may be used. No moving map type programs.

Start: While we've been shooting for 16 April, I'm thinking a week later (23 April) is more realistic. Probably at 1200Zulu on that date.

Flights: As usual, all flights to be verified using the Duenna program. Flights can be flown in daylight hours, but at least 3 landings must be made at night. Leg lengths and destinations are up to the individual pilot, keeping in mind the mandatory airport stops (To Be Announced Later). You can fly these on your time. Posting of flights will be like last years Evita event.

Event End: Figure at least one month to complete although longer time will be considered depending on how it's going.

Style Points: Style Points will be given but not really count for anything. Earning style points can be done by completion of tricky approaches, screenshots of interesting landmarks, really good tales of daring and pilotage in the Pilot's Lounge thread.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Feel free to post any questions/suggestions in this thread. We want this event to be fun for all.

Willy

please pardon my ignorance,
but are any NavAids acceptable?
if so, what?

[Dangerousdave26]

Smilo thats how we do it in the spring event No Navaids. Its pure Point and hope. :173go1:

Actually that is written rather confusingly. What that means is NO Gps but you can use all other FS Nav aids.

At least I hope thats what it means.

[Willy]

No such thing as a stupid question (unless I'm asking it :d). I could have worded that better.

DR, NDB, VOR, DME and Winddrift gauges may be used.

DR, NDB and Winddrift we normally allow and as this is set in the late 50s, VOR/DME were in use by then. Military aircraft used TACAN which is similar to VOR/DME so that was another reason we decided to allow them.

GPS and moving map programs are not allowed however.

[smilo]

whew...you had me a little worried.
I haven't flow to coordinates for a few years.
now, that would be a challenge!

I've just added the ALPHA A-3 to my short list.
she's not as fast as the B-47,
but being a carrier AC,
the short field potential is greatly enhanced.
we shall see.

and, thanks for the update

[RFields]

I've just added the ALPHA A-3 to my short list.
she's not as fast as the B-47,
but being a carrier AC,
the short field potential is greatly enhanced.
we shall see.

In my years with and later following VQ-1 and VQ-2, I don't remember the A-3 as a short field aircraft. A drag chute was necessary for runway landings since arresting gear on runway are only for emergencies. The real A-3 didn't have great brakes.

I have a Greg Pepper A-3 which was never released which has better brakes and is more stable for landing than the Alpha Sim model. But I find the AlphaSim aircraft quite acceptable.

I'm a bit concerned about the A-3 range on a Japan to Shemya leg. I don't think it can make Misawa to Shemya.

When we brought VQ-2 A-3's from Rota to Atsugi and Guam to use in Danang, they made the trip across the Pacific on a carrier deck.

Now if I could arrange a Navy C-130 with refueling capability between Misawa and Shemya.....

[Willy]

Now if I could arrange a Navy C-130 with refueling capability between Misawa and Shemya.....

How about a whole airport?

[Willy]

We're nailing down a few small issues with the rules and hope to have them out before Friday the 16th and start the race on the next Friday, the 23rd.

[smilo]

thanks for the HU, Reg.
I don't know what I was thinkin',
most likely, nothin', as usual.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

If anyone wants to take this trip with a Vulcan:
It may need some supporting fleet...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

Godspeed!
Markus.

[MaddogK]

If anyone wants to take this trip with a Vulcan:
It may need some supporting fleet...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

Godspeed!
Markus.

I've actually prepped a Vulcan for this run, but fuel usage is UNGODLY high, she's still on my short list but there a couple others that are about as fast, have similiar range, but use much less fuel.

[srgalahad]

I've actually prepped a Vulcan for this run, but fuel usage is UNGODLY high, she's still on my short list but there a couple others that are about as fast, have similiar range, but use much less fuel.

C'mon.. belly up to the bar! :jump:

ShellVirtualAero needs your credit card! There's an endless supply of petroleum!

[SIAI S81]

I downloaded the old Alphasim Tu-16 Badger , the Badger-A flyed first time in 1954.
When I unzipped the file I discovered Alphasim Badger is the -C version and it flyed first time in 1961. Question: could I use this Badger or it's out the limit for time? Second question: could I remove from the panel the GPS icon?

[MaddogK]

C'mon.. belly up to the bar! :jump:

ShellVirtualAero needs your credit card! There's an endless supply of petroleum!

Nice hat,

Tell ya what, I'll take the Vulcan if my first choice is rejected (still a state secret).
:salute:

[MaddogK]

Question to the Judges: If an A/C is considered subsonic for the RTW race, may I use it for this event although it capable of supersonic speed in a dive ? I wanna be fair as wikipedia says it's slower than the A-7.

[bpfowler]

I'm leaning toward the
--Vulcan
--b57
--hawker hunter

depending on leg lengths...did I miss a memo about the route?
[EDIT] I did miss the memo. race rules post found!

[Willy]

I downloaded the old Alphasim Tu-16 Badger , the Badger-A flyed first time in 1954.
When I unzipped the file I discovered Alphasim Badger is the -C version and it flyed first time in 1961. Question: could I use this Badger or it's out the limit for time? Second question: could I remove from the panel the GPS icon?

Sorry, it's out of the time frame. My first choice was an RAF Comet 4 by David Maltby, but those didn't enter service until 1960. As for the GPS icon, we rely on pilot honor to not use the GPS. Removing the icon while a nice gesture, is not necessary.



Question to the Judges: If an A/C is considered subsonic for the RTW race, may I use it for this event although it capable of supersonic speed in a dive ? I wanna be fair as wikipedia says it's slower than the A-7.


The main criteria is in use by 31 December 1959 and a Mach Max in the aircraft.cfg file of less than 1.0. If it fits those criteria, it should be legal.

[SIAI S81]

Ok, I will choose another plane. Thanks Willy for your answer! :salute:

[jkcook28]

Rules committee, can we clarify this once and for all:
First, is there an answer to Daves' thread here? http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=34826&p=394155&viewfull=1#post394155

I chose the A-4B after extensive testing at all altitudes and cannot exceed M1.0; much less reach the M1.2 in .cfg
I picked the -B model based on these tests and the in-service date. I see in this thread also that in-service is revised to first flight; so the -C would fit now too.
It seems it's simply these max mach numbers typed in the .cfg file are ruling out otherwise non-mach capable (in the sim) excellent models.

I'll choose another aircraft if need be.
Please advise.

[Moses03]

"If the plane cannot achieve Mach 1.0 speed in level flight, it is eligible."

I would not worry about the 1.00 cfg entry. If testing proves it cannot exceed Mach 1 in level flight it can be eligible.

[jkcook28]

Tks Moses, may use the A-4C now, some better paint schemes. Will test tonight.

[Vicious]

I would not worry about the 1.00 cfg entry. If testing proves it cannot exceed Mach 1 in level flight it can be eligible.

I think this is different from what the rules state. They seem pretty specific that if the max Mach in the config file is greater than or equal to 1, the aircraft is not eligible.

Vicious

[Moses03]

I think this is different from what the rules state. They seem pretty specific that if the max Mach in the config file is greater than or equal to 1, the aircraft is not eligible.

Vicious

Rgr. We are updating that line in the rules.

[Vicious]

Rgr. We are updating that line in the rules.

That clears it up. I may have to rethink my plane choice then. :salute:

Vicious

[Vicious]

Is an aircraft eligible if the first example flew before the end of 1959, but wasn't declared in service until the early 60's? If so, we'd have a few more aircraft to choose from.

Vicious

[Willy]

Bear with me, my comp is in the shop and I'm on my wife's at the moment.

Are you talking about a prototype? Prototypes that were flown before 31 December 1959 are eligible. An example would be the IAE 33 Pulqui II.

[Vicious]

No, not talking about a prototype, just the first production example. But the "In service" date, when it was actually given to the squadron was in the early 60's.

Vicious

[Willy]

If it was flying before 31 December 1959 and meets the other criteria (max mach), then it's eligible.

[jkcook28]

Dawn shakedown flight out of Darwin...:kilroy:

[smilo]

after practicing short field take offs
and landings from KNOW,
I decided to climb out of the rain
and head for PADK

[gandy]

My first choice was an RAF Comet 4 by David Maltby, but those didn't enter service until 1960.

The first production Mk4 Comet came into service 27/4/58 and was passed on to BOAC on the 24/2/59, Aircraft reg was G-APDA :)

Is the comet 3 ok to fly as its first flight was on 19/7/54 but G-ANLO was not passed on to the military until 1961, they made some changes and it became the Comet 3B

[Willy]

The RAF got it's Comet 4s in 1962.

Jens Christensen has done a Comet 2 that includes an RAF paint that would be eligible as the 2 started RAF service in the mid 50s.

The key on entering service is when they entered military service.

[gandy]

Quite true Willy, I do have a back up aircraft to use which im now planning to use as a comet 3 test flight i tried went wrong. My backup is a Hawker Hunter F58.

[JETninja]

Hmmm, you all got me interested in flying some 50's Iron. I download the Alphasim B-57 Canberra, had a retired USAF Step-dad years ago (deceased) that flew them for a number of years in the early 60's. (became a Herky pilot later on, sure he would have dug the C-17 Program I've been a part of the last 24 years) (He was in the 1st grad class at the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs in '59....and is buried there. Beautiful place.)

But my Nav talents are seriously lacking, too many years away. I got some re-learning to do.....

Also the Avro Vulcan is a sexy long range bird, need to look for one of those!