Freedom

[Ken Stallings]

I wish to make a point here.

I'm not at all concerned that the day after Easter the staff elected to close the Easter thread I created. That is understandable and fine.

What I want to address is the public discontent a few members went out of their way to put on public display. If a Muslim SOH member wished to post a purely celebratory thread regarding Ramadan, or a Jewish SOH member wished to post a purely celebratory thread on Passover, then I would take one of two responses.

I would either choose to respectfully abstain from participation, or I would choose to post a reply showing total respect for their core cultural and religious beliefs, and do so out of genuine respect for the aspects of their humanity that give them focus and balance. Personally, I would choose the second course because I would want to embrace the member's values as a pure act of friendship.

I am sure there are many agnostic and athiestic SOH members, and nearly all of them chose to respectfully follow one of the two courses of action I advocated myself above.

Why then a few chose to do otherwise simply is something that cannot be ignored. Why would SOH members go out of their way to be needlessly disrespectful is simply beyond me. Frankly, my parents did not raise me to be that way. Yes, we can debate objective issues. But, religious holidays are not up for debate, especially one that billions of humans consider important to them worldwide! Nor should the recognition be relegated to a quiet, dark, private closet at home!

In other words, we here at SOH should welcome members who positively share the important issues of their lives. Whether that includes births in the family, marriage, employment actions, or religious holidays of vital importance in their lives -- those should be celebrated by the membership at large. And frankly, if they cannot be, then what's the point of Newshawks in SOH?

At the same time, posting threads about family illnesses, tragedies, or other sad news is likewise to be respected. We should be in a position to provide each other moral support during hard times. If someone in such an hour of need ask for prayers, are they supposed to put SOH on a "not welcome here" list? And, again, if we cannot do this, then what's the point of Newshawks in SOH?

Finally, newsworthy events in virtual and real aviation have always been a core part of this Newhawks forums, and again, if not, then what's the pont?

Ultimately, those who cannot respectfully celebrate the variations in culture and values among humanity, and genunely rejoice that in our world such freedoms are cherished and celebrated, are frankly ill suited to make any arguments that they should enjoy such respect for their own personal beliefs and freedoms!

That Easter thread was in no way a debate point. Frankly, I seriously doubt anyone needed a history lesson on the origins of the holiday. There are only 365 days on the calendar (plus leap year day). It is virtually impossible to pick any day that enjoys an entirely unique role in history or celebration. After millenia of human history, the odds just don't add up.

And please, to turn such a thread into a referendum on what every staff member chooses as a personal belief system was really shocking to me! That reaction I never anticipated. I mean for next Christmas do the members need to poll in with parental status before posting about opening gifts on Christmas morning!

I guess what I'm really saying is there should be room and respect more than enough to allow pious people to celebrate their holidays without having to worry about stepping on someone's toes! And frankly, if there are members out there who's toes stick out that far, then I would frankly suggest they curl them in a bit to avoid the pain!

Sincerely expressed,

Ken Stallings

[tigisfat]

What I want to address is the public discontent a few members went out of their way to put on public display. If a Muslim SOH member wished to post a purely celebratory thread regarding Ramadan, or a Jewish SOH member wished to post a purely celebratory thread on Passover, then I would take one of two responses.

I would either choose to respectfully abstain from participation, or I would choose to post a reply showing total respect for their core cultural and religious beliefs, and do so out of genuine respect for the aspects of their humanity that give them focus and balance. Personally, I would choose the second course because I would want to embrace the member's values as a pure act of friendship.


Ken, I know you're only trying to lay a few things to bed and be heard, but it's a good policy to consider a conversation closed, over and done when a thread is locked even if wounds are fresh. Don't get me wrong, I understand this post of yours has nothing but the best intent, but it's a good policy because threads in an attempt to be heard after the fact are bound to be locked as well and only fan the fire. Further, dropping it after a thread is locked assists in the moderation of these forums even if you were the source of the heat (I know a thing or two about that).

[magoo]

I seem to recall that the original guidelines for the Newshawks forum be that any discussion slightly or greater than removed from flight sims could go, as long as it was not about religion or politics.

I seem to remember you and I having a few good roustabouts regarding politics and religion Ken. Among a host of others, that's pretty much what set the guidelines for the (then) new forum we're in now.

Seems all that passionate stuff was relegated to a forum titled, "Oso's Outhouse."

Now it's still there, down at the bottom of the roster. They call it the "Quarter Moon Cafe" I believe.

It's a good place to go raise a little encitement without an official sanction from the website owners. It is in fact, their private domain, not a public place. No freedom of speech violated. Only an end-user agreement to abide by.

Are you an abiding user, Ken?

[PRB]

Ken, it's simple, really. You're a guest in somebody else's house. And the host has kindly asked that you not start religious or political threads here in this particular forum, because the host has found that, sooner or later, such posts degrade into contentious debate, which the host wishes to avoid if possible. You may disagree with your host on this, but it's his house and you should respect his wishes on this. See? Simple. That's all there is to it. You may even be correct that everyone with differing religious views than yours ought to cut off their toes to accommodate you, but that isn't the point. The point is you have been asked to comply with a few simple rules.

[Ken Stallings]

Are you an abiding user, Ken?

Yes, James, I think I am.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Ken, it's simple, really. You're a guest in somebody else's house. And the host has kindly asked that you not start religious or political threads here in this particular forum, because the host has found that, sooner or later, such posts degrade into contentious debate, which the host wishes to avoid if possible. You may disagree with your host on this, but it's his house and you should respect his wishes on this. See? Simple. That's all there is to it. You may even be correct that everyone with differing religious views than yours ought to cut off their toes to accommodate you, but that isn't the point. The point is you have been asked to comply with a few simple rules.


Actually, the metaphor I used was to "curl" in one's toes to avoid them being injured.

Hardly your summation.

Cheers,

Ken

[djscoo]

I hope this wans't pointed at anyone in here!!

gramps

[pilottj]

I agree Ken,
I am personally not religious in any way, if i were to pick one for me, maybe closest to buddhist(my wife is so her ideas and beliefs often rub off on me.), but thats not important. Respecting other ideologies is. The world is a big place filled with lots of different ideas and interpretations of what life is and what it means. We are all stuck on this planet together. We can either respect each others beliefs and try to get along or we can bicker and kill each other over who's savior is right.

While I am not 'christian' that certianly doesnt stop me from buying Bill's great addon's. I respect him as a fellow airplane and scifi geek. I have absolutely no objection to him adding spiritual messages to his manuals. I really respect that he stands by his beliefs and he doesnt make anyone feel threatened who doesn't follow his beliefs. There is a difference between saying 'This is what i believe and it is what makes me want to wake up every morning' compared to 'This is what I believe and you are gonna go to hell if you dont'

Anyway whatever floats your boat in life. The best advice I ever heard was find somthing in life that makes you happy and go with it.

This is one of my favorite bumperstickers....heh it worked on star trek LOL
4057
Cheers
TJ

[Ken Stallings]

I agree Ken,
I am personally not religious in anyway, if i were to pick one for me, maybe closest to buddhist(my wife is so her ideas and beliefs often rub off on me.), but thats not important. Respecting other ideologies is. The world is a big place filled with lots of different ideas and interpretations of what life is and what it means. We are all stuck on this planet together. We can either respect each others beliefs and try to get along or we can bicker and kill each other over who's savior is right.

While I am not 'christian' that certianly doesnt stop me from buying Bill's great addon's. I respect him as a fellow airplane and scifi geek. I have absolutely no objection to him adding spiritual messages to his manuals. I really respect that he stands by his beliefs and he doesnt make anyone feel threatened who doesn't follow his beliefs. There is a difference between saying 'This is what i believe and it is what makes me want to wake up every morning' compared to 'This is what I believe and you are gonna go to hell if you dont'

Anyway whatever floats your boat in life. The best advice I ever heard was find somthing in life that makes you happy and go with it.

This is one of my favorite bumperstickers....heh it worked on star trek LOL
4057
Cheers
TJ

Thank you, sir! At least one other member here understands the point I am making. :engel016:

Cheers,

Ken

[Gramps]

I seem to recall that the original guidelines for the Newshawks forum be that any discussion slightly or greater than removed from flight sims could go, as long as it was not about religion or politics.


Seems all that passionate stuff was relegated to a forum titled, "Oso's Outhouse."

Now it's still there, down at the bottom of the roster. They call it the "Quarter Moon Cafe" I believe.

It's a good place to go raise a little encitement without an official sanction from the website owners. It is in fact, their private domain, not a public place. No freedom of speech violated. Only an end-user agreement to abide by.



Thanks magoo, you said it better than I ever could have :ernae:

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I'm just looking forward to the irony of a thread called freedom being closed.

I'll not say further as over the years I've not seen the standards this part of SOH is supposed to be about truly consistently applied. There is bias but in most things human there always is. That coupled with no appeal is what I think frustrates many.

-Ed-

[Lionheart]

Well Ken, Im glad you posted the Easter thread.

I believe you didnt mean any harm, and most of the posts in it were in agreement. Very few rocks were thrown.

:salute:



Bill

[Henry]

seems to me the rules and format
needs to be changed freedom of speech about politics and religion
need to be tighter
this is not the place
watch out for new rules
H

[Dain Arns]

Maybe the concept everyone seems to be searching for in this thread is called, "Respect".

Respect is earned, not given
Think first before posting.
"Will this be harmful?" "Do I really need to say it?" "Does it really belong in this forum?"
Many times I've written a novella as a response, only to cancel it.

Sometimes things are better left unsaid.
You don't always need to "Win".
Remember, it's always a two way street, the other side is just as hurt or confused as you are.
You don't always have to correct someone over something very minor.

Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Mocking someone is a form of hatred.
Belittling someone or their beliefs only serves one purpose. To make you look like more of an :censored: to everyone else.

And for God's sake, even if you don't agree with someone's lifestyle, respect them.
There are some folks here I don't agree with their lifestyles.
But I respect them as fellow human beings and freely give them the dignity they deserve.
Many I can call friends.

[tigisfat]

Maybe the concept everyone seems to be searching for in this thread is called, "Respect".


Well said, but what happens if a person or group of people refuses to realize they're being disrespectful? Respect and a lack thereof is based on perception. The most common internet arguments in the world are "you're being a jerk!!" "no you're being a jerk!!". That's why there is no freedom of speech on all of these private forums, and that's why religion and politics are banned.

This is the only flight sim forum that I'm aware of that even hassles itself to provide us with a special place for religion and politics.

[6297J]

Ken, it's simple, really. You're a guest in somebody else's house. And the host has kindly asked that you not start religious or political threads here in this particular forum, because the host has found that, sooner or later, such posts degrade into contentious debate, which the host wishes to avoid if possible. You may disagree with your host on this, but it's his house and you should respect his wishes on this. See? Simple. That's all there is to it. You may even be correct that everyone with differing religious views than yours ought to cut off their toes to accommodate you, but that isn't the point. The point is you have been asked to comply with a few simple rules.


And yet it happens all the time and the mods never step in and do anything until the thread has gone out of control and even then the protester is villified and the OP who started an evangelical post is left unchallenged. Now we know why as most of the mods are openly biased. Why not have a 'We Love God' subforum where all the people of faith can congregate and be missionaries to each other rather than trying to be missionaries to the great unwashed in the wider forums. I'm almost certain some people here think it is there religious duty to try and spread the word at every opportunity and I seem to be the only one who is offended enough to speak up about it. It's not good enough to just say if you don't like it then just ignore the post (which doesn't seem to work both ways). If I find it offensive and insulting and I do then I should be able to stick my hand up and object in whatever terms necessary.


seems to me the rules and format
needs to be changed freedom of speech about politics and religion
need to be tighter
this is not the place
watch out for new rules
H

From your lips to Ickie's ears Henry!

Crap, I'm going to be late for work :eek:

[grumpos]

Guys, lets bury this thread.

[Kiwikat]

Guys, lets bury this thread.

Even burying it won't make it go away.

I believe the moderators have already seen my opinion on the whole matter. (in private, where it should be)

I look forward to the new rules, Henry. :salute:

[grumpos]

Even burying it won't make it go away.



True, but it gives everyone a pause to cool down and write to 'enery.

[tigisfat]

True, but it gives everyone a pause to cool down and write to 'enery.

He probably gets sick of having his inbox full every day.

[Ickie]

Hummm, why the sudden which hunt, it sure looks like dark forces are at work at SOH.
It's a sad place when when new rules have to be in place because someone says something intelligent and nice.

We should all be honored to have a gifted writer like Ken among us. I sure am.

[Blackbird686]

Hummm, why the sudden which hunt, it sure looks like dark forces are at work at SOH.
It's a sad place when when new rules have to be in place because someone says something intelligent and nice.

We should all be honored to have a gifted writer like Ken among us. I sure am.

Couldn't have said it better...

BB686:USA-flag:

[6297J]

I guess when the proprietor comes out and nails his colours to the mast it's time to admit you are on the losing side and bow out of the discussion. What's the point now?

I will just say however that whenever I see a member of any faith taking advantage here and proselytizing, whether it's with official backing or not I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned.

For those who offered support in private, here and elsewhere - :salute:

[TomSteber]

Hummm, why the sudden which hunt, it sure looks like dark forces are at work at SOH.
It's a sad place when when new rules have to be in place because someone says something intelligent and nice.

We should all be honored to have a gifted writer like Ken among us. I sure am.

Thank you

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

[txnetcop]

I guess when the proprietor comes out and nails his colours to the mast it's time to admit you are on the losing side and bow out of the discussion. What's the point now?

I will just say however that whenever I see a member of any faith taking advantage here and proselytizing, whether it's with official backing or not I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned.

For those who offered support in private, here and elsewhere - :salute:

You're part of the problem not the solution. You had no business posting in there!!! When a thread does not apply to you or appeal to your belief system just don't post-ignore it and then there is no problem. You are sure as heck not to change the poster's mind just because you don't believe that way.

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[txnetcop]

Even burying it won't make it go away.

I believe the moderators have already seen my opinion on the whole matter. (in private, where it should be)

I look forward to the new rules, Henry. :salute:

We don't need new rules we need people to ignore a thread they disagree with rather than get their hackles up and start harassing someone because they have a different belief. That applies to politics and religion. I am right wing EVANGELICAL nightmare Republican, but amazingly I have very many LEFTY LIBERAL friends because I happen to like people and celebrate our differences. That is what makes a Democracy so awesome! We can disagree and still hold to FREEDOM! When you are older or have to fight in a war to perserve those rights you might get it!
Ted

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[dogknot]

Glad I missed the original fray.

With that said, I guess I would be one from the "dark side". No politics. No religion. Pretty simple.

[MudMarine]

I wish to make a point here.

I'm not at all concerned that the day after Easter the staff elected to close the Easter thread I created. That is understandable and fine.

What I want to address is the public discontent a few members went out of their way to put on public display. If a Muslim SOH member wished to post a purely celebratory thread regarding Ramadan, or a Jewish SOH member wished to post a purely celebratory thread on Passover, then I would take one of two responses.

I would either choose to respectfully abstain from participation, or I would choose to post a reply showing total respect for their core cultural and religious beliefs, and do so out of genuine respect for the aspects of their humanity that give them focus and balance. Personally, I would choose the second course because I would want to embrace the member's values as a pure act of friendship.

I am sure there are many agnostic and athiestic SOH members, and nearly all of them chose to respectfully follow one of the two courses of action I advocated myself above.

Why then a few chose to do otherwise simply is something that cannot be ignored. Why would SOH members go out of their way to be needlessly disrespectful is simply beyond me. Frankly, my parents did not raise me to be that way. Yes, we can debate objective issues. But, religious holidays are not up for debate, especially one that billions of humans consider important to them worldwide! Nor should the recognition be relegated to a quiet, dark, private closet at home!

In other words, we here at SOH should welcome members who positively share the important issues of their lives. Whether that includes births in the family, marriage, employment actions, or religious holidays of vital importance in their lives -- those should be celebrated by the membership at large. And frankly, if they cannot be, then what's the point of Newshawks in SOH?

At the same time, posting threads about family illnesses, tragedies, or other sad news is likewise to be respected. We should be in a position to provide each other moral support during hard times. If someone in such an hour of need ask for prayers, are they supposed to put SOH on a "not welcome here" list? And, again, if we cannot do this, then what's the point of Newshawks in SOH?

Finally, newsworthy events in virtual and real aviation have always been a core part of this Newhawks forums, and again, if not, then what's the pont?

Ultimately, those who cannot respectfully celebrate the variations in culture and values among humanity, and genunely rejoice that in our world such freedoms are cherished and celebrated, are frankly ill suited to make any arguments that they should enjoy such respect for their own personal beliefs and freedoms!

That Easter thread was in no way a debate point. Frankly, I seriously doubt anyone needed a history lesson on the origins of the holiday. There are only 365 days on the calendar (plus leap year day). It is virtually impossible to pick any day that enjoys an entirely unique role in history or celebration. After millenia of human history, the odds just don't add up.

And please, to turn such a thread into a referendum on what every staff member chooses as a personal belief system was really shocking to me! That reaction I never anticipated. I mean for next Christmas do the members need to poll in with parental status before posting about opening gifts on Christmas morning!

I guess what I'm really saying is there should be room and respect more than enough to allow pious people to celebrate their holidays without having to worry about stepping on someone's toes! And frankly, if there are members out there who's toes stick out that far, then I would frankly suggest they curl them in a bit to avoid the pain!

Sincerely expressed,

Ken Stallings

I'm with you 100% Ken! My faith is a part of who I am, it's not something I should feel the need to "put aside" just becuase I'm on the SOH forum! I show respect, I'd like the same in return. And it's not that "simple", if you can't accept me in your house for who I am, then ask me to leave!

[Clarke123]

I'm an outright atheist to the core and I had a nosey at the Easter thread just for the hell of it. I found absolutely nothing offensive whatsoever. If someone is that terrified of another belief system it says more about them than the one who originaly posted. What this comes down to is two completely different passions colliding and spiralling out of control. We're all adults here and extending a common courtesy to others shouldn't be too difficult, if you don't want to read a thread about god then don't. For the believers among you, if someones getting a kick out of winding you up over this try and ignore 'em, I know it's not easy but look what happened when you responded, a harmless thread was closed and they got what they wanted. next time let them have their little dig and when nobody responds they won't be able to have their fun. At the end of the day it's freedom of speech for everybody,
whether they share your views or not. Hope everyone had a happy easter, regardless.

[Dain Arns]

I'm an outright atheist to the core and I had a nosey at the Easter thread just for the hell of it. I found absolutely nothing offensive whatsoever. If someone is that terrified of another belief system it says more about them than the one who originaly posted. What this comes down to is two completely different passions colliding and spiralling out of control. We're all adults here and extending a common courtesy to others shouldn't be too difficult, if you don't want to read a thread about god then don't. For the believers among you, if someones getting a kick out of winding you up over this try and ignore 'em, I know it's not easy but look what happened when you responded, a harmless thread was closed and they got what they wanted. next time let them have their little dig and when nobody responds they won't be able to have their fun. At the end of the day it's freedom of speech for everybody,
whether they share your views or not. Hope everyone had a happy easter, regardless.

Well said. Well said, indeed. :salute: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[MudMarine]

We don't need new rules we need people to ignore a thread they disagree with rather than get their hackles up and start harassing someone because they have a different belief. That applies to politics and religion. I am right wing EVANGELICAL nightmare Republican, but amazingly I have very many LEFTY LIBERAL friends because I happen to like people and celebrate our differences. That is what makes a Democracy so awesome! We can disagree and still hold to FREEDOM! When you are older or have to fight in a war to perserve those rights you might get it!
Ted

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Well said Ted! I've seen a lot of good Marines die to defend our liberty (and other nations) to express what we believe. It's a two way street that only seems one way for some people.....

[txnetcop]

I'm an outright atheist to the core and I had a nosey at the Easter thread just for the hell of it. I found absolutely nothing offensive whatsoever. If someone is that terrified of another belief system it says more about them than the one who originaly posted. What this comes down to is two completely different passions colliding and spiralling out of control. We're all adults here and extending a common courtesy to others shouldn't be too difficult, if you don't want to read a thread about god then don't. For the believers among you, if someones getting a kick out of winding you up over this try and ignore 'em, I know it's not easy but look what happened when you responded, a harmless thread was closed and they got what they wanted. next time let them have their little dig and when nobody responds they won't be able to have their fun. At the end of the day it's freedom of speech for everybody,
whether they share your views or not. Hope everyone had a happy easter, regardless.

Thank you my atheist friend-I respect your opinion. Why are we so afraid of religious or political speech. You and I hold differing belief systems but we still share the same love for this hobby. Your beliefs don't destroy the fun we can have in here or comraderie. That is what I am getting at. Ken was not wrong. It was a simple statement celebrating the day and if it does not pertain to you and doesn't trash anyone leave it along and walk away. Go to a thread of real interest. It is such a simple concept
Ted

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[MudMarine]

If "new rules" are added I'll take that as a request to leave the house.

[txnetcop]

Mud no one needs to leave. You and even those we disagree with are valued here. We are brothers of our hobby. We love flight and flight simulation. We just need to learn to have respect for each other that's all.
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[Terry]

Ted and Ickie have it exactly right. :salute:

[Clarke123]

Everyone, just take a second. Take a deep breath and try to put this one to bed. We will never get a consensus on this subject, it will just go round and round, repeating the same arguments and opinions until somebody gets a little too passionate and says something they shouldn't. We don't need new rules, just a little self restraint.

Can't we all just get along?:icon_lol:

[leroy10]

You're part of the problem not the solution. You had no business posting in there!!! When a thread does not apply to you or appeal to your belief system just don't post-ignore it and then there is no problem. You are sure as heck not to change the poster's mind just because you don't believe that way.

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Thank You txnetcop, very well said.

Although I've never meet Ken nor spent any time conversing with him I do hold him in high regard. I couldn't care less what his beliefs are and his right to express them is exactly that. I certainly don't see eye to eye with everything he says but I have more than enough respect for him to look beyond those differences of opinion.

In my eyes a man who cannot respect the difference of opinion of another man isn't a man at all.

Cheers :ernae:
Lindsay

[txnetcop]

I am not even trying to be right. All I am asking for of the guys in this forum. I am not talking as staff. I am asking as a fellow aviation buff and brother of the simulation community that somehow we learn to respect the statements of others we disagree with as long as what they say does not trash another. Ken was not proselytizing. He only made a statement concerning the day Christians celebrate. I agreed with the statement but when I disagree with someone as long as they don't threaten another with racial slurs, slams or threats I walk away and go look at a thread of more interest. What is so hard about that?
Ted
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[Chacha]

I'm an outright atheist to the core and I had a nosey at the Easter thread just for the hell of it. I found absolutely nothing offensive whatsoever. If someone is that terrified of another belief system it says more about them than the one who originaly posted. What this comes down to is two completely different passions colliding and spiralling out of control. We're all adults here and extending a common courtesy to others shouldn't be too difficult, if you don't want to read a thread about god then don't. For the believers among you, if someones getting a kick out of winding you up over this try and ignore 'em, I know it's not easy but look what happened when you responded, a harmless thread was closed and they got what they wanted. next time let them have their little dig and when nobody responds they won't be able to have their fun. At the end of the day it's freedom of speech for everybody,
whether they share your views or not. Hope everyone had a happy easter, regardless.



Thanks Clarke... :salute:



We indeed had a Happy Easter, Sire!





I have an ignore button, I use it if some posts offends me....





I agree with you Ted,

This is a diverse community of aviation and flight simmers.
We are all different in everything but we have a common love for flight and flight sim.
If we can respect one another's belief and tradition
this would be a great community

[Lateral-G]

You know, if someone wants to worship a toaster that's fine with me. Have at it.

Just don't tell me I have to worship the same toaster and beat me over the head with it. I think too many people confuse freedom of speech/thought/expression with the need to force (or enforce) their views and ideology on others.

Like Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along..."

-G-

[txnetcop]

You know, if someone wants to worship a toaster that's fine with me. Have at it.

Just don't tell me I have to worship the same toaster and beat me over the head with it. I think too many people confuse freedom of speech/thought/expression with the need to force (or enforce) their views and ideology on others.

Like Rodney King said, "can't we all just get along..."

-G-

It was one thread and no one was forcing you to believe what he believed. You could go look at another thread. I would like add it was appropriate considering what day it was. You did not have to agree just ignore it, that's all
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[MudMarine]

Mud no one needs to leave. You and even those we disagree with are valued here. We are brothers of our hobby. We love flight and flight simulation. We just need to learn to have respect for each other that's all.
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Agreed Ted. I've been a respectful member for years. But the idea of applying new rules becuase of a post on the most important day of my faith/our is deeply offensive! To close it is offensive! It reminds me of what countless pilots/aircrews have fought and died for.......GOD and country. I've seen countless threads and comments here that I don't care for but like the radio or TV I tune it out and move on.

[wombat666]

I guess when the proprietor comes out and nails his colours to the mast it's time to admit you are on the losing side and bow out of the discussion. What's the point now?
I will just say however that whenever I see a member of any faith taking advantage here and proselytising, whether it's with official backing or not I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned.

Having been occupied with several important 'Real Life' issues I have not had time to do much more than make a quick pass through the Outhouse on a weekly basis, and then only if time permits.
Not having read the original post by Ken or most of the posts in this thread my first impression so far is why, and if I were a 'visitor' or 'prospective new member' it would give me pause for thought.

"I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned"

Why bother?

As Ted has already pointed out, if you don't like it, ignore it and move along.
If you follow through with the above threat, then you are indeed part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I hasten to add this is my personal view, not in any way as part of the 'Staff'.
Now, if I may be excused, I shall return to the 'Real World' and get back to sorting out the genuine family problem(s) that I have on my agenda.

:173go1:

[MudMarine]

FORCE? Force n. 1. A body of persons organized for a certain purpose, esp. for the use of military power. 2. Strenght; power. 3. To compel to perform an action. 4. To inflict or impose.

Last time I check I've NEVER seen anyone trying to "force" their beliefs on anyone here?!

[MudMarine]

Having been occupied with several important 'Real Life' issues I have not had time to do much more than make a quick pass through the Outhouse on a weekly basis, and then only if time permits.
Not having read the original post by Ken or most of the posts in this thread my first impression so far is why, and if I were a 'visitor' or 'prospective new member' it would give me pause for thought.

"I will continue to protest until I am inevitably banned"

Why bother?

As Ted has already pointed out, if you don't like it, ignore it and move along.
If you follow through with the above threat, then you are indeed part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I hasten to add this is my personal view, not in any way as part of the 'Staff'.
Now, if I may be excused, I shall return to the 'Real World' and get back to sorting out the genuine family problem(s) that I have on my agenda.

:173go1:

I'm happy and proud to be part of the "problem"! It's a comment NOT a threat, can't see how that treatens anyone? Words have meaning and shouldn't be tosses around carelessly, some people forget that too often around here. I'm done with this it's reached the pointless point.

[Lateral-G]

It was one thread and no one was forcing you to believe what he believed. You could go look at another thread. I would like add it was appropriate considering what day it was. You did not have to agree just ignore it, that's all
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Ted,

Lighten up, OK? I'm a christian, a catholic too if you must know and proud of it. I happened to agree with the spirit of the previous thread regarding Easter and feel it was appropriate. I also believe in a person's freedom of expression and thought. I just don't like it when I'm told I'm wrong for believing in what I believe in.

If a forum member of another faith wishes to express their feelings of joy WRT to a holiday in a post then that is thier perogitive. Just so long as they don't attack/belittle/put down people who are not of the same viewpoint. If I disagree with their post I can ignore it or read it and move on without comment.

that's all....

-G-

[Snuffy]

What I find "funny" (read pathetic,) is the number of people who know a thread could be potentially "harmful to their over sensitive feelings", and yet open the thread anyhow, become offended as they suspected they would, and then cry about it.

Strangely enough, and more often than naught, those whose "feelings get hurt" are those who profess to be so "non feeling" to start with.

This Politically Correct crap, or looking out for the feelings of others, has gotten way outta hand ... and not just on these forums ... but nationally.

If you're going to be an athiest or an agnogstic, Fine, be one .... but at the same time understand that a person with a religious conviction has as much right to voice their feelings and opinions as you do so buck up and live with it.

This has nothing to do with the management of SOH, its staff, its memebers, or its rules. It has to do with your percieved feelings ... of right and wrong, and in this case you're wrong.

[txnetcop]

Ted,

Lighten up, OK? I'm a christian, a catholic too if you must know and proud of it. I happened to agree with the spirit of the previous thread regarding Easter and feel it was appropriate. I also believe in a person's freedom of expression and thought. I just don't like it when I'm told I'm wrong for believing in what I believe in.

If a forum member of another faith wishes to express their feelings of joy WRT to a holiday in a post then that is thier perogitive. Just so long as they don't attack/belittle/put down people who are not of the same viewpoint. If I disagree with their post I can ignore it or read it and move on without comment.

that's all....

-G-

That wasn't meant as an attack G. That is the problem with the written word. It does not come across well unless you can hear the inflection in a voice or see their face. I apologize if that seemed too direct. I got your point my friend.
Ted

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[txnetcop]

Most everyone knows I was a Vietnam era vet. I was assigned to tent with a guy name Ken Hashimura. He was a buddist. I was an atheist. The very first thing he erected in my tent was his worship area where he burned incense and prayed to Budda. At first I made fun of him and his "ridiculous superstition." Ken saved my life twice. I saved his once in the 13 months we were there. I figured early that I needed him because in spite of what I perceived as superstition I could count on him as a brother in arms. He died a few years ago. He was actually glad I accepted Christ as my Savior, not because he believed the way I did, but because, it was my "comfort." He needed his "comfort" in that worship area and he never once tried to force his way on me, and today I mourn his loss. ken was good man and a man I could trust because he proved he had my back. When a thread clearly does not match your beliefs, as long as that threat does no harm to another brother, walk away please so poor John(jmig) can enjoy his work as a moderator.
Ted
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[Clarke123]

Most everyone knows I was a Vietnam era vet. I was assigned to tent with a guy name Ken Hashimura. He was a buddist. I was an atheist. The very first thing he erected in my tent was his worship area where he burned incense and prayed to Budda. At first I made fun of him and his "ridiculous superstition." Ken saved my life twice. I saved his once in the 13 months we were there. I figured early that I needed him because in spite of what I perceived as superstition I could count on him as a brother in arms. He died a few years ago. He was actually glad I accepted Christ as my Savior, not because he believed the way I did, but because, it was my "comfort." He needed his "comfort" in that worship area and he never once tried to force his way on me, and today I mourn his loss. ken was good man and a man I could trust because he proved he had my back. When a thread clearly does not match your beliefs, as long as that threat does no harm to another brother, walk away please so poor John(jmig) can enjoy his work as a moderator.
Ted
It's no wonder then that you're so passionate about your faith and eager to defend it. We all know what kicked this off and the bit of fun they've had with it but don't let a bloody cockney wind you up so much. Ted, you have my infinite respect for your honesty and I can't imagine what you must have gone through. If your faith helped, then you carry on posting about it and I'll have your back in any argument.

[OBIO]

I generally avoid threads dealing with religion and politics...both topics are sure to come to a quick boil as differences of opinion collide. But I will post in this thread....not my opinion, but a true story of acceptance, tolerance, and brotherhood from two unlikely sources.

Back in 1987, I was a Freshman at Ohio Northern University in Ada, Ohio. One day at lunch, I was joined by two guys who were Juniors. Roommates for three years, these two men had been forced together by an unseeing housing department (or what ever you call the people who assign college students to their dorm rooms). These two men had a choice, kill each other or over come their differences and live in peace. These two chose to over come their differences, and as a result had become best of friends, brothers in spirit. Both of these men were approaching the US Government for the right to remain in this country once their education visas were no longer valid. Neither wanted to return to their home nation, as doing so would mean that they would once again become sworn enemies and would likely face each other across the barrels of their military rifles.

One of these guys was from Isreal. The other was a Palastinean. Jew and Arab. Sworn enemies at home.

But there on the campus of ONU, these two men were able to break through the generations old hatred and find that, deep down, they had much more in common than they had that was different.

These two men had become more than best friends, they had become brothers. And neither wanted to return to their home land, where their brothers (through national bent) would once again become their enemy.

I don't know if these two were able to stay in the US as they wanted. I don't know if they were able to be god-father to each other's children. I hope they were able to. I hope that all these years later that their families are getting together for cook outs and birthday parties and movie nights.

OBIO

[Lateral-G]

That wasn't meant as an attack G. That is the problem with the written word. It does not come across well unless you can hear the inflection in a voice or see their face. I apologize if that seemed too direct. I got your point my friend.
Ted

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Not a problem. :ernae: It's all good.....

-G-

[cheezyflier]

this division really bothers me. i love this place, and i think just about everyone i interact with here has some really cool aspects about them. of course well all have facets of our "selves" that get on peoples nerves, so to speak. i know there are aspects of myself that some of you could live without. (hey, be glad we're not in the same room, i'm worse in person) but to not have even one of you here would be a big change. i look at this place like a quilt and we are all a patch. know what i mean? y'all know i'm christian, but i don't want to drive away folks like tig, or maybe even piglet and some of the others who aren't. i would rather accept heavier moderation than the alternatives of driving people away, or having the atmosphere change to something more like oso's.

[Henry]

this division really bothers me. i love this place, and i think just about everyone i interact with here has some really cool aspects about them. of course well all have facets of our "selves" that get on peoples nerves, so to speak. i know there are aspects of myself that some of you could live without. (hey, be glad we're not in the same room, i'm worse in person) but to not have even one of you here would be a big change. i look at this place like a quilt and we are all a patch. know what i mean? y'all know i'm christian, but i don't want to drive away folks like tig, or maybe even piglet and some of the others who aren't. i would rather accept heavier moderation than the alternatives of driving people away, or having the atmosphere change to something more like oso's.
good one cheez
i have never had a problem with Kens original post
and this actually has nothing to do with Ken at all
my problem is whats happening now
we have a war going on member vs member
is this what everybody wants?
we use to have a forum here that tek set up
and it got so out of hand we deleted it
and let Oso's take over
this forum is taking on the same tone
we moderate we are bad people, we dont
and we are bad people
freedom of speech and freedom of religion
are extremely important to all
but there is a place and the newshaks
in my opinion aint it.
i have a friend who is on staff here
and is extremely anxious to have somewhere to post his beliefs
and talk to others who share the same
my beliefs are different than his
but he is strong in the way he feels
and i would do anything to create what he wants
but my fear is it would be warfare
everyone is entitled to there beliefs and entitled to be respected for them
the i am right and you are wrong approach
is where the problem lies
hence me thinking about harsher moderation
what does the end result in a thread like this accomplish?
H

[pilottj]

After observing the regular members here and their posts while I have been a member here, I gathered that the majority of them shere different political and religious views than myself. But I am not a member of this forum to talk about those things. While my primary purpose here is to share thoughts with everyone about our favorite hobby, flightsim, it is nice to have another forum to find out our other common interests such as music, cars, etc. Being that I am probably a bit more liberal than a lot of folks here, that doesnt stop me from wanting to share ideas with other flighstsim fans here, and it shouldnt stop any of them from wanting to share their flightsim thoughts with me. I have to agree that a discussion like this would be better at a 'cantina' type forum where it is understood that all the PC gloves are off and people can go at it politically/religiously to their hearts conent. A healthy debate is fine, because presents other perspectives to think about as long as the participants can avoid degrading it into personal attacks.
I agree with the Mods, in this forum and obviously the flightsim forums, this type of subject matter should be
refrained from being brought up.

[brad kaste]

Pissing contests never resolve anything. I hate to think of Henry taking a harsher moderation to the 'NewHawks' forum. That would help kill the spontaneity here which makes the ebb and flow of this forum so successful. Hopefully, cooler heads prevail.

[n4gix]

Before I lose the opportunity to do so, I'd like to share some thoughts on "humility" that're totally "non-religious" in nature, or perhaps more to the point are pretty universal in application...

I wrote these for myself nearly forty years ago and read them every morning before beginning my day. I wish that I could always honor them completely, but even so they provide a centering point for me and a target for which to aim... :icon_lol:



HUMILITY

Allow me to remind myself every day that among other
evident signs of a lack of humility are:

Thinking that what you do or say is better
than what others do or say;

Always wanting to get your own way;

Arguing when you are not right, or -
when you are - insisting stubbornly
or with bad manners;

Giving your opinion without being asked
for it, when charity does not demand you
to do so;

Despising the point of view of others;

Not being aware that all the gifts and
qualities you have are on loan;

Not acknowledging that you are unworthy
of all honor or esteem, even the ground
you are treading on or the things you own;

Mentioning yourself as an example in
conversation;

Speaking badly about yourself, so that
others may form a good opinion of you,
or contradict you;

Making excuses when rebuked;

Hiding some humiliating faults from your
spiritual director, so that he may not
lose the good opinion he has of you;

Hearing praise with satisfaction, or being
glad that others have spoken well of you;

Being hurt that others are held in
greater esteem than you;

Refusing to carry out menial tasks;

Seeking or wanting to be singled out;

Letting drop words of self-praise in
conversation, or words that might show
your honesty, your wit or skill, your
professional prestige;

Being ashamed of not having certain
possessions...

[Cloud9Gal]

Pissing contests never resolve anything. I hate to think of Henry taking a harsher moderation to the 'NewHawks' forum. That would help kill the spontaneity here which makes the ebb and flow of this forum so successful. Hopefully, cooler heads prevail.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs009.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Well said Brad! I agree wholeheartedly!

[TARPSBird]

One of the few benefits of the time I've spent in bars over the years ;) is that I can easily predict the outcome of a conversation just by the subject matter and the tone it takes when the participating drinkers first start talking. Pretty much the same here, although alcohol consumption may not be a factor. Occasionally I see something posted and I say to myself, oh no, I'm not touching this thread with a ten-foot pole. Ken's Easter post was a perfect example. Well-intentioned, not meant to cause a ruckus, but there are always a few folks who just can't leave it alone. My perception of the NewsHawks forum is that it's a good place to post comments on music, funny/weird news stories, computer-related gripes and questions, and general aviation and flight sim topics. For other "gloves off" topics like religion, politics, sports loyalties, law enforcement (or lack of), other peoples' mothers, etc. etc. take that stuff to Oso's.

[magoo]

Henry
we have a war going on member vs member
is this what everybody wants?
we use to have a forum here that tek set up
and it got so out of hand we deleted it
and let Oso's take over
It's a reiteration.

Newshawks was created at the same time as Oso's Outhouse, for the reasons obviously seen in this thread. It was a failsafe solution to an existing and ongoing conflict that allowed SimOuthouse's front door forum to remain interesting, inviting, cordial, while heavy duty social debate was redirected to a padded forum.

It worked in spades.

With time, some internet characters of agitative intent departed, and (wooh!!) things became relatively calm here. The agitant power structure had failed, and the face to face reality of Oso's was just too honest an environment for them to survive.(Really hard work in there!!)

Oso's transmuted into the relatively hardcore Quartermoon Saloon (See bottom of the forum menu) and sim members here have been able use NewsHawks to focus more on the technical realities( among other things) of just keeping this website alive while others have fallen by the wayside or have suffered disaster. (Netwings, Avsim, etc...)

Now a little agitation has returned, and there's a debate about whether or not some new rules should be enforced in the Newshawks forum. Few seem to remember that the idea of the new rules, were in fact the raison d'être of this forum at the beginning. Things just became relaxed over time.

What is this entity of agitation? It's a character that looks for a soft place to nest. A place where it can recognize a weakness between people, using vageries of rule and format. It uses fear and encourages folks to turn against each other in a previously peaceful place. It's an entity that builds it own power by polarizing people's anxieties, and ultimately creates a ghetto of exclusionism to fuel it's own idea of a social power base.

It's already happening right here, right now. Some folks are lobbying like hell in private messages, some are digging in for online trench warfare, others are simply preparing to leave. Staffers are probably hoping hard they don't have to start banning members, and may even disagree about that! All in the SimOuthouse's private formal livingroom, the Newshawks.

Interesting how this kind of agitant discource and disagreement appears to follow that entity around the internet, where ever it goes.




The solution to all this is exceptionally simple and goes all the way back to the origins of Newshawks.




No religion or politics here.

Period.

Verbotten.

Always creates polarization, always creates conflict. Raises the workload of the website staff right through the roof, creates warfare and destruction where ever it goes. Guarrenteed destructive effect, well documented, proven time and again.

Write that stuff in a forum that's designed for it.

It's here, it's available at the bottom of the forum menu.

If those who feel so strongly about their convictions don't have the courage to publish their ideas in a forum that allows equal opportunity to opposing ideas in the fullest, then I have to become suspicious that we're witnessing a manipulation, a form of a social power grab, the tossing of an un-pinned hand grenade into a crowded room of innocents, as described above.

Ickie, Henry, Outhouse staffers, you guys have been here before and you know nothing has changed in the formula that now threatens the social structure of SimOuthouse. This is a phenomenal website in the field of flightsim technology. A format that has truly defied the odds to remain here and earn a wonderful reputation among flight simmer around the planet.

Around the planet.

It should not be wasted.

I would respectfully encourage retaining the original guidelines for SimOuthouse's Newshawks forum, wilst happily redirecting topics of religion and/or politics to the appropriate and available forum. You'll find your workload goes waaaayy-down. Grumblers will dissapear as quickly as they arrived.

Those writers with a passionate social or evangelical message who feel the need to express here, why not show the consideration to post it to the right place and not push a wedge between webstaff and web-users. Show some respect for the forum structure. Beyond that, why not show the true courage of said conviction, and place the message where it could be truly debated. I think that the willingness to back the talk with a little walk would certainly dispell any suspicion I would have about manipulation and want for power structure, things moving under the ice.

Sincerity is truly seen in action, not just words.

If you dare have the spirit of real truth, I'll read your words in the Quartermoon.

[Quixoticish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDWSGmphgTs

[Henry]

all the posts 55 and down
are exactly what i am saying
i do not want to do anything change rules etc
and so far i see no reason to ban anyone
but religion and politics are very strong feelings and opinions
and if everyone is running to there corners
get a life
this is our home
and i mean for everyone
if you have teenagers do you bring up birth control at the dinner table
or in private
there is a time and place
sadly a comment happy easter
caused so much grief
whats next happy birthday?
H

[magoo]

Henry
get a life
That's pretty much what it's about, I think....

The answer to life, the universe, and everything. ( Not 42!)

Religions around the planet try to answer those questions, many of them disagree. It brings out the most basic insecurities in most people.

The structure of religion always come with a code of conduct, rules and regulation. They often disagree with other systems, create conflict.

These rules blend into politics. Law and freedom. Again, many conflicts. Basic ones. And very basic insecurities are again brought to the surface.

This is essentially the most stressful stuff, and there will always be massive conflict to dominate and challenge simply because of how basic and fear based the root of this all is.

What is SimOuthouse? A hobbiest flightsim sight. A realization of aviation enthuisiasm at the home computer.

It's an amazing hobby that's generated technology and home experience that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

And it's not the answer to life, the universe, and everthing. It's simply an enjoyable diversion from the difficult path of life that we must endure in our own way.

Why bring the basic fears and conflict into this fine oasis. Why not check the guns in at the Marshall's office and just enjoy this place for what it was originally designed for. Enjoyment, release of stress, satisfaction and pursuit of curiosity about aviation.

There is a place for the hard stuff....I've already written. The deterent is that the exploiters would find it real work in that place. Truly they're looking for a soft target.

That's what Newshawks has become.

It's all so simple, safeguards have been in place and have proven effective in the past. What reluctance to easily reinforce these tools?

[Henry]

That's pretty much what it's about, I think....

The answer to life, the universe, and everything. ( Not 42!)

Religions around the planet try to answer those question, many of them disagree. It brings out the most basic insecurities in most people.

The structure of religion always come with a code of conduct, rules and regulation. They often disagree with other systems, create conflict.

These rules blend into politics. Law and freedom. Again, many conflicts. Basic ones. And very basic insecurities are again brought to the surface.

This is essentially the most stressful stuff, and there will always be massive conflict to dominate and challenge simply because of how basic and fear based the root of this all is.

What is SimOuthouse? A hobbiest flightsim sight. A realization of aviation enthuisiasm at the home computer.

It's an amazing hobby that's generated technology and home experience that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

And it's not the answer to life, the universe, and everthing. It's simply an enjoyable diversion from the difficult path of life that we must endure in our own way.

Why bring the basic fears and conflict into this fine oasis. Why not check the guns in at the Marshall's office and just enjoy this place for what it was originally designed for. Enjoyment, release of stress, satisfaction and pursuit of curiosity about aviation.

There is a place for the hard stuff....I've already written. The deterent is that the exploiters would find it real work in that place. Truly they're looking for a soft target.

That's what Newshawks has become.
i have found a new mentor:costum:
thanks if this was real life
i wouldnt be wearing my flying hat the wrong way round
H

[Lionheart]

all the posts 55 and down
are exactly what i am saying
i do not want to do anything change rules etc
and so far i see no reason to ban anyone
but religion and politics are very strong feelings and opinions
and if everyone is running to there corners
get a life
this is our home
and i mean for everyone
if you have teenagers do you bring up birth control at the dinner table
or in private
there is a time and place
sadly a comment happy easter
caused so much grief
whats next happy birthday?
H



Good point Henry.

The funniest part about all of this is that 'some' people freaked out on the post! The trouble makers stirred the pot and made the thread to look bad, and now are saying that 'posting 'happy this day' or 'happy that day' is just not right! Post on news but not 'happy days'....

What in the world!

We were doing this with FS... FS2004 people going into the FSX room and starting riots. FSX people going into the FS2004 room and causing heck... I say grow up... Even I was doing that, making bad comments about FSX and yeah, it was wrong, and yeah, I learned my lesson, and yeah, I dont do it any more. I threw rocks at other peoples interests and it was wrong.. Bottom line.

My dad used to say, if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything... Its so true. Otherwise, if I said only negative things, you guys would think I was some negative, depressing, burnt out ole nooot with a cold soul who only see's the bad things in the world. Sure, I see bad things and yeah, I dont comment on them. If the guys are talking about something 'wacked' that I dont agree with, I am not going into their thread and shoot them down for something I 'dont' believe in...

When I see a argument in the QMS about Obamma, I want SO BAD to go in there and stand up for him.... SO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But hey, whats the use. I am for what I believe in, and I am going to respect the thoughts and beliefs of others, be it happy easter day, pagan day, Christmas, druids day, Pope day, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.... I do not tell people what to write, what to live by.

Freedom..... Its about peace and freedom...


Can you handle it?

[Snuffy]

I suppose we should stop the Happy Birthday threads now too ... :kilroy:

[tigisfat]

I suppose we should stop the Happy Birthday threads now too ... :kilroy:


Why? Because birthday threads are elitist? The rules say that there are no politics and religion in newshawks. You're trying to say birthdays and religion are the same. They are not. Birthdays are not a belief system.

[tigisfat]

We were doing this with FS... FS2004 people going into the FSX room and starting riots. FSX people going into the FS2004 room and causing heck... I say grow up... Even I was doing that, making bad comments about FSX and yeah, it was wrong, and yeah, I learned my lesson, and yeah, I dont do it any more. I threw rocks at other peoples interests and it was wrong.. Bottom line.


I enjoyed that perspective. Most people can find identity by siding with a cause. Looking at past conflict really puts things into perspective.

[Bjoern]

What I find "funny" (read pathetic,) is the number of people who know a thread could be potentially "harmful to their over sensitive feelings", and yet open the thread anyhow, become offended as they suspected they would, and then cry about it.

Ah, the good old "taking the internet too seriously" thing...





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDWSGmphgTs

LoL! :d

[Henry]

Why? Because birthday threads are elitist? The rules say that there are no politics and religion in newshawks. You're trying to say birthdays and religion are the same. They are not. Birthdays are not a belief system.
i believe i get one a year:salute:
H

[Snuffy]

Why? Because birthday threads are elitist? The rules say that there are no politics and religion in newshawks. You're trying to say birthdays and religion are the same. They are not. Birthdays are not a belief system.

I beg to differ. They are self Idolization, actually a religious thing. Idolizing self over others. :wiggle:

[Snuffy]

Ah, the good old "taking the internet too seriously" thing...

Or, the old "taking themselves too seriously," thing.

[tigisfat]

I happened to know a few people growing up that had a religion about birthdays and made a big deal outta mine. Summer solstice is a big deal to some Wickens.


Nevertheless, I enjoy celebrating the birthdays of others. My girlfriend and I have contest to see who can make a bigger deal out of the other's birthday.

[MudMarine]

Why? Because birthday threads are elitist? The rules say that there are no politics and religion in newshawks. You're trying to say birthdays and religion are the same. They are not. Birthdays are not a belief system.

Birthdays arent religious? Why do we have Godfather and Mothers? Why do we get baptized? Why do we count years AD and BC? Birth and children are gifts from God to be celebrated, at least where I came from. Just an observation.

Another observation: Law and the foundation of our nation and belief system are based on Christian values.

[Snuffy]

Summer solstice is a big deal to some Wickens. ...

Like Wicker isn't a religion ... LOL! :bump:

[Henry]

well we got into birthdays
this is a test the sky is blue
should i make a poll?:wavey:
H

[Snuffy]

well we got into birthdays
this is a test the sky is blue
should i make a poll?:wavey:
H

Actually its more cyan ...

[Kowalski65]

Law and the foundation of our nation and belief system are based on Christian values.

Thankfully not my country!!* And which christian values would those be? The bit in the bible that says you can sell your daughter into slavery if she cheeks you(actually that could be tempting LOL), the death to gays bits,etc etc?

As a complete atheist, I would rather all religion be kept out of what is a flight sim forum after all, not just because of my personal stand on religion but because you can always see the trouble it causes when an immovable object comes into contact with an irresistable force!


* Nor,IMHO, the USA, if you look at the intentions of the founding fathers!

[Kowalski65]

well we got into birthdays
this is a test the sky is blue
should i make a poll?:wavey:
H

Well,I just looked and it's black,definitely black,with the odd star

[Bjoern]

Birth and children are gifts from God to be celebrated, at least where I came from. Just an observation.

Contrary opinion: "Godfather" and "-mother" are just there for the sake of terms, kids are there because biological stuff was at work, kids get a birth certificate and years get counted in AD and BC because it has been like that for centuries (Why is there °F as a unit of mesure if °C is way more logical?).
At least where I come from and live.


Another observation: Law and the foundation of our nation and belief system are based on Christian values.

Actually, if I interpret the articles on Wikipedia correctly, most continental european jurisdictive systems and collections of laws were mostly based on concepts coming directly from the Romans. The church just ran their own agenda in parallel until its influence on the juristictive system got ever less.
And since Americans are more or less direct descendants of Europeans, I guess a more down-to-earth law system in the spirit of the Enlightenment age is way more probable than a Christian one.

[Bjoern]

As a complete atheist, I would rather all religion be kept out of what is a flight sim forum after all, not just because of my personal stand on religion but because you can always see the trouble it causes when an immovable object comes into contact with an irresistable force!

Atheism is kind of a religion, too. :d

[Snuffy]

Atheism is kind of a religion, too. :d

That's a fact. Just like AGW is a religion. :mixedsmi:

[Bjoern]

AGW

Huh?


I'm wondering if Nihilism is a religion as well...

[Snuffy]

Huh? ...

Yeah, you know ... man made global warming ... like the belief in god ... or non belief in god, it either exists or it doesn't ... it has the same M.O. as religion vs atheism.

Narcissism is probably a religion too ... worship of self! :mixedsmi:

[Clarke123]

Narcissism is probably a religion too ... worship of self! :mixedsmi:
But it leads to hairy palms.

[Cloud9Gal]

But it leads to hairy palms.

Oh jeeze!


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-ashamed002.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Ummmm....well...http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs027.gif

LOL!

[Snuffy]

But it leads to hairy palms.

Actually it leads to blindness ... not hairy palms ...

[Clarke123]

Actually it leads to blindness ... not hairy palms ...
I dunno. Been a lifelong believer and been shavin' my palms since I was fourteen :d

[Snuffy]

I was/am a believer that "grass" doesn't grow on a playground ... :mixedsmi:

[Bjoern]

Yeah, you know ... man made global warming ... like the belief in god ... or non belief in god, it either exists or it doesn't ... it has the same M.O. as religion vs atheism.

Ah. Well, it all depends on the information you get. I bet if you do enough research you'll end up somewhere between the public hysteria and the public denial.

I still think it's a good idea to slap humanity awake a bit. Can't dwell on huge energy consumption produced by non-renewable sources forever.




Actually it leads to blindness ... not hairy palms ...

My eyes actually got better over the years... :x

[Clarke123]

I was/am a believer that "grass" doesn't grow on a playground ... :mixedsmi:
Then you're not doin' it right :bump:

[Snuffy]

Boy has this thread degenerated. LOL! :bump:

I'm done.

[Clarke123]

I'm done.
So soon? :icon_lol:

[tigisfat]

The anonymity of the internet gives us a wonderful study of the human mind yet again.....:wiggle:

[Bjoern]

So soon? :icon_lol:

Maybe his wife doesn't let him as often anymore... :x :icon_lol:

[Clarke123]

The anonymity of the internet gives us a wonderful study of the human mind yet again.....:wiggle:
Wouldn't study my mind if I were you. 'Tis a dark place....full of dirty things.

[Bjoern]

Wouldn't study my mind if I were you. 'Tis a dark place....full of dirty things.

Lesbians, sports, technical stuff and alcohol. That's not dark, it's perfectly normal. :icon_lol:

[Henry]

if a tree falls in a television
do it change the channel ?
just wondering
H

[Lionheart]

if a tree falls in a television
do it change the channel ?
just wondering
H

LOLOLOLOL.....

lolol...


I should be able to answer this... If an Apple falls on your new 42" flat screen LCD HD TV, no... It must fall on the remote.. Not the screen or other such important structural member on the TV.

[Clarke123]

Lesbians, sports, technical stuff and alcohol. That's not dark, it's perfectly normal. :icon_lol:
I'm glad it's not just me. :jump:

[magoo]

:engel016: You can't imagine how pleased I am to see it all fall back into good hands. Phew.

[Clarke123]

All things fall from grace and into the gutter. All it takes is time and a few self abuse jokes :jump:

[boxcar]

.
Thank you, Ken, really. Good thoughts, expressed very well, imo.

Now, from the SOH FAQ:

.
.
Dealing with Troublesome Users

Can I block posts, emails and messages from specific users?
If there are particular members that bother you and you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. There are several ways to do this:

Through your User Control Panel: User CP (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/usercp.php), Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/profile.php?do=ignorelist). Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.

What if I see something offensive? <--- !!!
You will find 'Report' links in many places throughout the board. These links allow you to alert the board staff to anything which you find to be offensive, objectionable or illegal.

.
.
.
That's how to deal with posts we find objectionable & members whom are continuing to disrespect the peace of our virtual home here that we are privileged with, not by disrespectfully writing on another's post that is clearly disturbing us for any reason. Some would also do quite well to respect the saying found at the top of the forums here:


Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!
.

There was no religious proselytizing & no preaching going on in Ken's Easter thread. There was thankful celebration & many of us chose to share in the spirit of this. A few members went out of their way to muddy up the thread. That was disrespectful. It is lightly going on even in this thread, accusations & trying having their own way continuing. Fine... after repeated behaviors by some whom are apparently never able to admit any offense, am heading to the "ignore list" & place a few on it here now...

.
...after thanking Ken again for standing for what he knows & executing it. Am honored to know you, friend.
.
.

.

[Bjoern]

I'm glad it's not just me. :jump:

It's a common thing. Most men just can't admit it because they're married (and wives are *everywhere*!). :d




a few self abuse jokes :jump:

"Self abuse". :icon_lol:

[Clarke123]

"Self abuse". :icon_lol:
Remember, good boys sleep with their hands above the covers. :mixedsmi:

[boxcar]

For the believers among you, if someones getting a kick out of winding you up over this try and ignore 'em, I know it's not easy but look what happened when you responded, a harmless thread was closed and they got what they wanted. next time let them have their little dig and when nobody responds they won't be able to have their fun. At the end of the day it's freedom of speech for everybody, whether they share your views or not.


Am liking this... a lot. You have my respect, Clarke. :-)
.

[Ken Stallings]

I'm an outright atheist to the core and I had a nosey at the Easter thread just for the hell of it. I found absolutely nothing offensive whatsoever. If someone is that terrified of another belief system it says more about them than the one who originaly posted. What this comes down to is two completely different passions colliding and spiralling out of control. We're all adults here and extending a common courtesy to others shouldn't be too difficult, if you don't want to read a thread about god then don't. For the believers among you, if someones getting a kick out of winding you up over this try and ignore 'em, I know it's not easy but look what happened when you responded, a harmless thread was closed and they got what they wanted. next time let them have their little dig and when nobody responds they won't be able to have their fun. At the end of the day it's freedom of speech for everybody,
whether they share your views or not. Hope everyone had a happy easter, regardless.

And simply to prove that I can act what I advocate ... I genuinely respect your philosophy. I really do. I appreciate we live in a free world where each adult can form his or hers own path and be genuinely respected and appreciated as a human being in good standing among men. :engel016:

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

I generally avoid threads dealing with religion and politics...both topics are sure to come to a quick boil as differences of opinion collide. But I will post in this thread....not my opinion, but a true story of acceptance, tolerance, and brotherhood from two unlikely sources.

Back in 1987, I was a Freshman at Ohio Northern University in Ada, Ohio. One day at lunch, I was joined by two guys who were Juniors. Roommates for three years, these two men had been forced together by an unseeing housing department (or what ever you call the people who assign college students to their dorm rooms). These two men had a choice, kill each other or over come their differences and live in peace. These two chose to over come their differences, and as a result had become best of friends, brothers in spirit. Both of these men were approaching the US Government for the right to remain in this country once their education visas were no longer valid. Neither wanted to return to their home nation, as doing so would mean that they would once again become sworn enemies and would likely face each other across the barrels of their military rifles.

One of these guys was from Isreal. The other was a Palastinean. Jew and Arab. Sworn enemies at home.

But there on the campus of ONU, these two men were able to break through the generations old hatred and find that, deep down, they had much more in common than they had that was different.

These two men had become more than best friends, they had become brothers. And neither wanted to return to their home land, where their brothers (through national bent) would once again become their enemy.

I don't know if these two were able to stay in the US as they wanted. I don't know if they were able to be god-father to each other's children. I hope they were able to. I hope that all these years later that their families are getting together for cook outs and birthday parties and movie nights.

OBIO

If this thread served no other purpose, the fact that it elicited that personal story was a magnificent result!

Thank you for elevating this thread in poignancy, integrity, and value more than my feeble efforts could have ever done! :engel016:

Ken

[Henry]

And simply to prove that I can act what I advocate ... I genuinely respect your philosophy. I really do. I appreciate we live in a free world where each adult can form his or hers own path and be genuinely respected and appreciated as a human being in good standing among men. :engel016:

Cheers,

Ken
yes you do but sadly others do not
i really do not think you did anything wrong in fact you did not
but my concern is greater and wider
H

[Ken Stallings]

well we got into birthdays
this is a test the sky is blue
should i make a poll?:wavey:
H

Well, it can be red when the sun rises or sets! :icon_lol:

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

yes you do but sadly others do not
i really do not think you did anything wrong in fact you did not
but my concern is greater and wider
H

I appreciate that, Henry. I certainly do not wish to destroy the forums, nor even materially harm them.

But if in the desire to avoid all conflict we create an environment deemed by some as stiff or stiffled, then unfortunately that could achieve the same end result that the desire for rules sought to avoid. It's a catch 22 and ultimately one of the most difficult things about running a forum.

I guess the best option is to let people be genuinely themselves and respect that.

Ultimately every human belief system can be termed a religion. Every human action has at one time or another been deemed a religious expression. With certainty, there were many eons in human history where the act of a human flying was considered not merely a religious act, but the stuff of miracles and direct evidence of diety.

Icarus, anyone?

Yes, I realize that's ancient history and things change. But, that's kind of my point. For example, if someone posted photos of his attendance at "Hedonism Week," I'm not going to launch into a negative rebuke or try to belittle the person. I'll ignore it, or I'll join in with something humorous or insightful. Or, at least I'll try.

If the people here at SOH are just genuinely being themselves, without any overt intent to cause something, or rebuke someone, then I cannot see how that can justifiably upset the apple cart. Let's disagree over the factual stuff, like how did this aircraft or car get tested and sold. The concepts that form human value systems should be celebrated if genuinely held. :engel016:

Cheers,

Ken

[Toastmaker]

Unbelievable ! 8-9 pages of this. I think this thread itself has become a religion ! :icon_lol:

As Magoo rightfully pointed out, the solution is blindingly simple here - no politics, no religion - period.

And, contrary to some popular belief, The Quarter Moon Saloon is not a trash dump. It is a place where there are no subjects rejected and can be debated in a seriously frank manner. It is a place for adults who will behave as adults. But, if you think that the liberal subject matters also indicate a place where you can abuse and insult others - you will be quickly dealt with in perhaps a more direct way than happens here.

Bring politics and religion to the Saloon. They are both interesting and dynamic subjects and deserve a good examination and debate. All are welcome. Respect the original rules of Newshawks.

[jmig]

As one of the two assigned moderators to this forum and the one who closed the Easter thread, I would like to state my views.

The Easter thread was not closed because of what Ken started it with. As far as I am concerned on Easter Sunday, it is appropriate to state, "He is Risen." Ken was not stating a "fact" as someone pointed out, but, he was making a statement of belief or affirmation. In my mind there was nothing wrong with that on Easter, the most Holy day of Christendom. If a devout Muslim had started a thread at the end of Ramadan and said, "Allahu Akbar" I would have seen his statement appropriate for the time.

Nor was the thread closed because some non-Christians made statements which the Christians might disagree. That, in my mind, is their right. I personally considered most of them (Piglet's an exception) cheap shots and over reactions. However, I am sure they thought differently. Still, it was their right to make such statements.

No, the thread was closed because the Christians and Non-Christians got into a pissing contest as to who was more disagreeable. That is why I closed it. If anyone had an agenda to close it, congratulations, you succeeded. You succeeded only because the other side chose to argue rather than ignore.

I purposely stayed out of this discussing. I see much arguing about should Religion and Politics be allowed in Newshawks. I believe that if they are News, yes, they should. A Easter thread on Easter Sunday was news worthy.

I had hopped that news worthy threads such as Easter could have been discussed without getting into a flame war. As one moderator here, and a very good friend pointed out to me, I wear rose colored glasses.

I work for Henry and the other Admins. If they say close all Religion and Political threads, I will do so. If not... well I still have those colored glasses and I am an optimist.

[tigisfat]

And simply to prove that I can act what I advocate ... I genuinely respect your philosophy. I really do. I appreciate we live in a free world where each adult can form his or hers own path and be genuinely respected and appreciated as a human being in good standing among men. :engel016:

Cheers,

Ken

Just because you can conduct religious conversations in peace and respect for the non-religious doesn't mean that everyone else at SO can.

A few months back I told a story of a sticky situation and was given a bunch of Christian advice. I politely said no thank you, and that I wasn't likely to go church to seek help or pray, and the response was about how wrong I was. I was then treated like I was being offensive for saying that I didn't think jesus or god or whatever existed.

Just last week a moderator decided that we should pay more respect around here by capitalizing the 'G' in god.

Ken,

I can handle a "he is risen" thread where believers share a moment together. The above shouldn't happen, and makes it a very unfriendly place. I didn't get my underwear twisted over it, but new guys just won't come here.

Cheezyflier has one of the better attitudes around regarding his faith. We've calmly discussed this kinda thing via PM.

[Ken Stallings]

Just because you can conduct religious conversations in peace and respect for the non-religious doesn't mean that everyone else at SO can.

A few months back I told a story of a sticky situation and was given a bunch of Christian advice. I politely said no thank you, and that I wasn't likely to go church to seek help or pray, and the response was about how wrong I was. I was then treated like I was being offensive for saying that I didn't think jesus or god or whatever existed.

Just last week a moderator decided that we should pay more respect around here by capitalizing the 'G' in god.

Ken,

I can handle a "he is risen" thread where believers share a moment together. The above shouldn't happen, and makes it a very unfriendly place. I didn't get my underwear twisted over it, but new guys just won't come here.

Cheezyflier has one of the better attitudes around regarding his faith. We've calmly discussed this kinda thing via PM.

Hey, I got no disagreement with that post.

That thread wasn't an invitation to have a debate. That's why I didn't post it in Quarter Moon, nor is the fact I chose not to a sully against that forum.

But, not everything is posted for a debate point.

My joy at purchasing my airplane wasn't a debate point. I just wanted to share something special that I feel good about.

What if someone posted in reply, "Yeah, that's great, burn a bunch of fuel for a $100 hamburger and spoil the environment on a childish fancy!"

My point is that anything can be turned negative. It ain't the religion folks! That's an excuse.

Ken

[Quixoticish]

A few months back I told a story of a sticky situation and was given a bunch of Christian advice. I politely said no thank you, and that I wasn't likely to go church to seek help or pray, and the response was about how wrong I was. I was then treated like I was being offensive for saying that I didn't think jesus or god or whatever existed.

Just last week a moderator decided that we should pay more respect around here by capitalizing the 'G' in god.



And herein lies the problem, or so it would seem.

[Henry]

look im tired
this is not going anywhere constuctive
H