New Piglet Pusher....

[Piglet]

Going back to my peculiar roots...
J7W1 Shinden.

[Dain Arns]

Going back to my peculiar roots...
J7W1 Shinden.

And there was much rejoicing... :icon_lol: :applause::icon_lol: :applause:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/Leorstef/muchrejoicing.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/Leorstef/?action=view&current=windowslivewritermmm_brains-d623cre.jpg)

Have a Hasagawa model stored in a box somewhere.
Eventually I'll get to fly every model I own. LOL.
Looking forward to this one, thanks Tim!
(http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b162/Leorstef/?action=view&current=windowslivewritermmm_brains-d623cre.jpg)

[Z-DarthVader]

Lovely choice there!! Always loved that plane!!

Thx Piglet!!:salute:

[letsgetrowdy]

Sweet! Still loving your Skyraider

[Pips]

Saw the word 'pusher' and got all excited, thinking it was the D.H.2 :wiggle:

Still, the Kyushu Shinden is a very interesting choice! :)

[harleyman]

Oh Boy...Love this plane ...........You da man....:salute:

[Lionheart]

Great choice Tim! Love that plane.

Reminds me of this bird. :d


If anyone is into this aircraft and like Japanese Animae, this is the movie to see... Sky Crawlers.

[Lionheart]

A couple of more.....

[DX-FMJ]

awesome! :salute:

[txnetcop]

Tim I am very sure no one is going to complain about it. WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO ((((((Huge APPLAUSE))))))
Ted
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[PRB]

Oh boy! Cool plane! It will look good next to the XP-56!

[Ferry_vO]

Oh boy! Cool plane! It will look good next to the XP-56!

And the Saab J-21!

Others that would fit are the XP-55 Ascender, XP-54 Swoose Goose and the Henschel P.75. ;)

[huub vink]

Great choice Tim! Already looking forward to it!

Huub

[MudMarine]

U the man Tim!!:jump: Excellent choice!!

[peter12213]

Thats wierd but I like it! :salute:

[PRB]

And the Saab J-21! ...

Oops, and the J-21! :salute:

[falcon409]

Oh yea baby. . .I love this airplane. . .great choice Tim!!:salute::salute::jump::jump:

[Ken Stallings]

Last time I saw that aircraft in virtual form was the 1946 add-on for Dynamix's classic Aces over the Pacific game!

Ken

[txnetcop]

Last time I saw that aircraft in virtual form was the 1946 add-on for Dynamix's classic Aces over the Pacific game!

Ken

OH yes I remember that was one of my favorite games-of course back then I told the wife it was a simulator!
Ted

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[Daveroo]

tim..can you make the calfire airtanker version?.......




ummm well seems i allways ask you that when you make a new plane..sooooooo...................:wavey:


hehehehehe


Dave

[PRB]

Kazunori Ito made one for FS9. It needs a good FM, but is otherwise pretty good. Looking forward to Tim's!

[Mithrin]

What a cool design, very nice!

[pilottj]

wooohooo...always loved the Shinden...so does my Andorian :D

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f349/pilottj/misc/shinden_001.png

[Lionheart]

LOLOLOL....

Her blue skin goes well with the green paint scheme.

:ernae:


Bill

[warchild]

Well, i'm definately in line for this one. I never really liked Ito-Sans version because he never uses Virtual cockpits but this should prove to be remarkable..:)..

[Sundog]

It's always been one of my favorites. Thanks. :)

[Ken Stallings]

wooohooo...always loved the Shinden...so does my Andorian :D

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f349/pilottj/misc/shinden_001.png

Looks like a scene out of an alternate version of that Star Trek Enterprise two-parter about an alien involvment in World War II. All we need is Archer running up to the aircraft to strap a bomb on it! :icon_lol:

Ken

[cheezyflier]

very cool! i'm looking forward to this one! i'm wondering what doggy artifacts we might get this time?
i hope there will be something

[deathfromafar]

That plane was always interesting to me. Looked very fast and maneuverable. I have read slightly different accounts but it seems only 2 were built with only 1 flying right around the time the two bombs were dropped.
It never flew again. Still an intriguing design. Glad Piglet is building a good one!

Anyone ever remember the old Aces over the Pacific? I used to love to fly that fighter in that game.

[Piglet]

I made a J7W1 way back in the CFS2 days, with FSDS v1, and Aircraft Animator.
Remember those programs, and SCASAM?

[Daube]

Interesting plane indeed.
I'm with Lionheart on this one, I more or less discovered it in the Japanese anime movie Sky Crawlers, very impressive, an very sweet aircrafts :)

[falcon409]

I flew Ito Sans version for a loooong time. I even did a paint kit for it and did several new paints as well as enhancing the originals. Warchild, I think this was one of the first models that Ito included a basic VC in as well. His (or whoever was doing them for him) VC's got better as they went along too, never getting to the point that any of todays models are, but much better than nothing at all and it made his later models even more endearing, despite the lack of a coherent FDE, lol.

[Gibbage]

Very nice work! I have been wanting to do a J7 myself for a LONG time but never found the time. I started the body, but never finished. I also want to do a P-56 to go with it! The Black Bullet looked really cool, but too bad its performance didnt match its looks.

3974

[Ken Stallings]

That plane was always interesting to me. Looked very fast and maneuverable. I have read slightly different accounts but it seems only 2 were built with only 1 flying right around the time the two bombs were dropped.
It never flew again. Still an intriguing design. Glad Piglet is building a good one!

Anyone ever remember the old Aces over the Pacific? I used to love to fly that fighter in that game.

I think you missed my post a bit before your's! :icon_lol:

I don't know how maneuverable that aircraft would have been. Perhaps fast due to lack of parasitic drag due to the relative lack of vertical stabilizers. But, that wing was so far aft of the plane's center of gravity, that I think it would have been a beast to fly! That wing had to function as both elevator and aileron since the canards look small relative the overall size of the aircraft. The other thing I noticed was the small wheels on the bottoms of the two vertical stabilizers. I can only imagine how easy it would have been to rotate in the flair, have those tiny wheels make initial contact on a hard landing, and damage the relatively weak looking stabilizers they were attached to.

Ken

[Panther_99FS]

That one brings back memories :)

[alx]

GREAT plane, Piglet. Thanks. :jump:

Hey, please don't forget the first true canard fighter, the SAI Ambrosini S.S. 4, that made the
fisrst flight on March 1939, four years before than all the other planes in the category.

[warchild]

I flew Ito Sans version for a loooong time. I even did a paint kit for it and did several new paints as well as enhancing the originals. Warchild, I think this was one of the first models that Ito included a basic VC in as well. His (or whoever was doing them for him) VC's got better as they went along too, never getting to the point that any of todays models are, but much better than nothing at all and it made his later models even more endearing, despite the lack of a coherent FDE, lol.

I wouldnt have any doubt that Ito-san produced the VC.. As much as i do not like his planes flight models, i have to give him credit in that, i've seen his name listed within the credits of a few different Anime. I still have one of his planes, and wish someone would make a model of it but its not likely, but then again, i simply woke up with a bad attitude today, so gods know eh??

[warchild]

I think you missed my post a bit before your's! :icon_lol:

I don't know how maneuverable that aircraft would have been. Perhaps fast due to lack of parasitic drag due to the relative lack of vertical stabilizers. But, that wing was so far aft of the plane's center of gravity, that I think it would have been a beast to fly! That wing had to function as both elevator and aileron since the canards look small relative the overall size of the aircraft. The other thing I noticed was the small wheels on the bottoms of the two vertical stabilizers. I can only imagine how easy it would have been to rotate in the flair, have those tiny wheels make initial contact on a hard landing, and damage the relatively weak looking stabilizers they were attached to.

Ken

I'm not certain i would agree about the wings Ken. I havent done any math yet of course, but just looking at her, shes a very practical plane. The Main wing is located in line with the engine providing enough lift for the entire back half of the plane, and the canard is quite hefty when contrasted to say the canard on a eurofighter, or sukhoi. its definately a lifting surface with plenty enough acreage to manage lift on the front half of the plane, leaving the CG just about where the pilot sits.. Obviously to me, some part of that canard was a control surface, but whether they used the entire canard as an elevator or only part of it ( small elevators on the back of the canard ) I dont know. i do know that with all the weight in the rear, its going to take a lot less force to move the nose of the plane up and down that it would if they used standard type elevators, and those canards have the potential of developing plenty of force. Enough to flip that bird completely on its back, and cause it to spin out and crash. My guess ( and thats allll it is this morning ) is that they only used part of the canards as elevators using the rest of them as lifting surfaces, in order to maintain some vertical stability. But, i just woke up so i may be way off in dreamland..


Addendum..

I just took a look at the three views on the shinden ( http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/kawanishi_j7w_3v.jpg ) and yeah, the back 1/3 of the canards are used as elevators, and not the entire thing. That would put this plane on par with say, a zero, but at a much faster speed. maybe say 80 to 100 mph faster if my guesser is still working.. The fairy wheels, i just dont understand. Oddly enough, she had twin counter rotating props. i'm surprised at the relatively low top speed of this thing ( 466 mph )considering that i'm contrasting it too the Russian Bear with its speed and performance..
at least, I THINK it had counter rotating props.. may be an optical illusion though..

[Cactuskid]

Extra nice Tim! :applause: I'm looking forward to this. I'd like to see a lot more WWII Japanese aircraft for FSX! I wonder if anybody has considered making a Nakajima B5N 'Kate' for FSX?

[falcon409]

I read up a bit on this when I was looking for any liveries to do back when Ito San released his version. The wheels on the vertical stabs were to reduce /eliminate damage to those surfaces on take off. Apparently they had a bad habit of scraping the ground so the wheels were added. Also, if you look at the 3-view and look at the position of the nosewheel to the mains. . .if you rotate the aircraft nose up a bit to level those out. . .imagine how close the prop would have been to the rwy on take off as well. I think the wheels served a dual purpose.

[Slug Flyer]

I just took a look at the three views on the shinden ( http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/kawanishi_j7w_3v.jpg ) and yeah, the back 1/3 of the canards are used as elevators, and not the entire thing. That would put this plane on par with say, a zero, but at a much faster speed. maybe say 80 to 100 mph faster if my guesser is still working.. The fairy wheels, i just dont understand. Oddly enough, she had twin counter rotating props. i'm surprised at the relatively low top speed of this thing ( 466 mph )considering that i'm contrasting it too the Russian Bear with its speed and performance..
at least, I THINK it had counter rotating props.. may be an optical illusion though..

Goodnight Irene, we're talking about a WW2-era prop-driven fighter here and 466mph is slow? :eek:

[warchild]

Goodnight Irene, we're talking about a WW2-era prop-driven fighter here and 466mph is slow? :eek:


ROFLMAO... ;)

Keep in mind, this things cruising speed is listed at 220 mph ( though i dont personally believe it yet ).. Thats slower than most of our dive bombers ( which is WHY i dont believe it ). Considering this things shape, i think perhaps somewhere closer to 300 mph for cruising is more accurate, but i've been wrong, many times before.. Also maximum speed on the p-36 is 485 mph. Thats maximum airframe speed, not how fast her engine could move her. The swept wing on the Shinden though, is a good indication that this was one very fast bird for the time, though with the elevator area, i'd have to estimate that her maximum handing performance was seen at lower speeds in the 200 to 275 mph range. Thats just another guess though..

[Akatsuki]

Great! Excellent choice!:jump:
What about a Dornier Do-335 next?

[Piglet]

The CG is about 1/4 MAC, or just in front of the mainwheels when gear is down. The canards have both elevators and flaps. The "flaps are really just a small short movable surface that support the elevators. Kinda like the "recellerons" on an A-10, but combining pitch and flap functions.
The R2800-class engine is about halfway from the cockpit to the aft end of the fuselage.
The prop is a single 6-bladed unit. No contra-props. Surpised to see no evidence of an ejector seat of any kind. Maybe prop jettison?
Was always surprised on the quoted top speed of 466MPH. Would think 400-430 would be more realistic. Especially in armed combat production versions.
Gibbage,
I already made a XP-56 for FSX.

[Flyboy208]

Wow Tim, Graet choice! My FSX rig is currently INOP, more motivation now for me to get it up and running again! Mike :wiggle:

[Ken Stallings]

That canard would have to act as a downward lifting surface same as a conventional horizontal stabilizer. It would have to counter the lift of the main wings.

Two were built, and only one flown -- just once for less than an hour, and that one is in the National Air and Space Museum. It was designed to be highly maneuverable, so perhaps it was.

Problem is that most of the data came from scale tests on gliders. One 45 minute test flight was hardly long enough to get a feel for the aircraft. The 466mph top speed was just an estimate. Given all the myriad of possible issues approaching speed limits, who knows what it really could have done.

Ken

[Pips]

The performance figures in Francillon's "Japanese Aircraft Of The Pacific War" are supposedly based on the three (3) test flight's conducted by Captain Tsuruno before war's end. They are very impressive..... max speed of 466 mph @ 28,545ft, cruise speed of 263 mph @ 13,125ft (perhaps a misprint? and should read 363?), climb to 26,245 ft in 10 min 40 seconds with a service ceiling of 39,370ft and range (without drop tank) of 529 miles. They compare very favorably with late war American aircraft.

But then I guess they should be given that the aircraft only weighed in at 4,928 kg loaded and was driven by an engine that produced 2,130hp @ take-off, 2,020hp at 1,180m and 1,160hp at 8,700m.

Still with the very high wing loading of 49.1 lb/sq ft, it's not going to be all that manoeuverable. As a comparison the Spitfire Mk.1 had a wing loading of 24 lb/sq ft;
the Hurricane Mk.1 - 21.9 lb/sq ft;
Type 0 Model 21 - 22 lb/sq ft
Type 0 Model 52 - 26.3 lb/sq ft
Ki-43-1a - 19 lb/sq ft
Ki-84-1a - 35.1 lb/sq ft
J2M3 - 35.1 lb/sq ft
P-51D - 39 lb/sq ft

[Ken Stallings]

I found three sources that said it was test flown once and another source saying three times. But, the sole source also specified the same dates as your source quoted. So, I'm thinking your source got it right.

You make an excellent point about wing loading. The other sources I read said it was primarily designed to intercept the B-29. To do that it needed high speed, but also an interceptor must climb fast.

Ken

[Matt Wynn]

And the Saab J-21!

Others that would fit are the XP-55 Ascender, XP-54 Swoose Goose and the Henschel P.75. ;)

Don't forget the Miles M.35....

http://airdic.com/UserFiles/tomcat/1(437)(2).jpg
http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/picturesm/ae54.jpg

And Piglet, stay on the oddballs...... they are your calling card of the FS world... and great work on the 'Shinden' keep it up!

[warchild]

nearly 50 pounds of wing loading is intense.. too intense. thats downright scary.. Nahhh, with wing loading like that, it didnt turn worth a damn.. she'd be sliding all over th sky..

i DID however, manage to find this page.. http://www.geocities.jp/jp_j7w1_shinden/start-e.html.

i Stand corrected.. it was a six bladed prop.. thanks smoothie :)..

[Matt Wynn]

no worries pam, heres it's Butt, love this shot :salute:

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/NavyJB&W4/J7W-26.jpg

[warchild]

Hi ken..
Yoy just might be correct, but the canards do have elevators on them which are seen here http://www.geocities.jp/jp_j7w1_shinden/date/down.gif .
now, the thing with those elevators, is they're tiny.. so i'm wondering if those arent trim tabs to adjust for the load?? Piglet?? could you enlighten us??

[Piglet]

Pam,
See my prev. post. The canards, canard flap and elevators are at the end of a good sized moment arm, so the "small" size my not matter as much.
There is a trimtab set into the left elevator, and left aileron. So the elevator is an elevator in it's own right, not just a trimming surface.

[warchild]

Very cool.. thanks Tim.. looks like i got confused for a moment or four.. Appreciate the feedback :)..

[Sundog]

That canard would have to act as a downward lifting surface same as a conventional horizontal stabilizer. It would have to counter the lift of the main wings.

Actually, just the opposite is true. For an aircraft that is naturally stable in pitch, the cg is ahead of the center of lift. Therefore, on a conventional tail aircraft, the horizontal tail would have to create a down force to balance out the moment between the wings center of lift and the cg. However, to counteract the same pitching moment on a canard aircraft the canard must produce lift. Also, on Rutan's aircraft he places the canard at such an angle of incidence that it will stall before the wing does. Once the canard stalls the natural pitching moment generated by the wings lift wrt to the cg will force the nose down and the canard will start flying again. I don't know if they did that with the Shinden, with regard to the relative angle of incidence, though.

Of course, I'm assuming the Shinden is naturally stable and not neutrally stable or slightly unstable. I suppose I should dig out all of my Japanese aircraft books and see what I have on it in that regard. I might even have one of their Maru Mechanics on it, or whatever those publications were called. I know I have them with regard to the Shoki and the Raiden.

[Gibbage]

Gibbage,
I already made a XP-56 for FSX.

Wow! Must of missed it! How about a P-55 then? Or an XP-67

4035

I also agree that 466MPH is VERY generous. Thats assuming very good quality, and let me tell you, thats one thing late war Japanese aircraft were lacking. Massive engine problems and overall poor aircraft fitment ment that none of the late war stuff came anywhere near there rated speeds. Also, the P-56 was also predicted to be a 400+MPH aircraft and it never got anywhere near it, and thats WITH good quality engines and body. Honestly, I have yet to see any WWII aircraft and most modern meet its "predicted" performance.

[falcon409]

Wow! Must of missed it! How about a P-55 then? Or an XP-67

4035

Yep, got one of those in several different flavors. . .this is just one. Model by Kazunori Ito.

[UnknownGuest12]

Got this wonderfull unusal plane in 1/48 model, will love to see it flying out of my top shelf

thanks Piglet

[Ken Stallings]

Actually, just the opposite is true. For an aircraft that is naturally stable in pitch, the cg is ahead of the center of lift. Therefore, on a conventional tail aircraft, the horizontal tail would have to create a down force to balance out the moment between the wings center of lift and the cg. However, to counteract the same pitching moment on a canard aircraft the canard must produce lift. Also, on Rutan's aircraft he places the canard at such an angle of incidence that it will stall before the wing does. Once the canard stalls the natural pitching moment generated by the wings lift wrt to the cg will force the nose down and the canard will start flying again. I don't know if they did that with the Shinden, with regard to the relative angle of incidence, though.

Of course, I'm assuming the Shinden is naturally stable and not neutrally stable or slightly unstable. I suppose I should dig out all of my Japanese aircraft books and see what I have on it in that regard. I might even have one of their Maru Mechanics on it, or whatever those publications were called. I know I have them with regard to the Shoki and the Raiden.

Interesting comments. I will have to study this further.

Cheers,

Ken

[Sundog]

OK, I checked my Japanese pubs, and the test/developmental plane I have most of the info on is the A7M2, the Zero Replacement. Which doesn't help you, but helps me, since I just picked up the 1/48 model kit of it.:)

I do have the Shinden data from the Volume 2 issue of World War II Design With Precision, but based on the comments I've seen here, it seems you already have that data. Although I did end up looking at the Volume with all of the test/development aircraft and there were so many cool Japanese combat aircraft in development at the end of the war. The Ki-88, think a Tony crossed with an Airacobra, is a great looking plane, as were many of their twin engine fighters, like the Ki-83. Anyway, I digress. Keep up the great work Tim.

[Sundog]

Interesting comments. I will have to study this further.

Cheers,

Ken

Hi Ken, you might enjoy this article.

Canards: design with care (page 1) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1985/1985%20-%200561.html)
Canards: design with care (page 2) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1985/1985%20-%200562.html)
Canards: design with care (page 3) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1985/1985%20-%200563.html)

[Flyboy208]

Hey Guys and Gals, let's not pick it apart, just happy Piglet is modeling this rare late-war Japanese concept aircraft ...

Mike :wiggle:

[falcon409]

It's nice to see so many folks involved in what Tim's doing with the Shinden, lol. Probably because this truly is a rare bird, folks seem to want to analyze the crap out of it, lol. Makes for interesting reading, most of which means nothing to me, but somebody has to know all that stuff so rock on.

I have to guess tho that Tim had all this info a long time ago. . .probably knows what he's doing and will build it the way he wants within the published information available. I'm looking forward to it. . .after all, the only other model available is Ito Sans, which doesn't have a VC, so we're already way ahead.

Lookin forward to it Tim!!:salute:

[Ken Stallings]

Hey Guys and Gals, let's not pick it apart, just happy Piglet is modeling this rare late-war Japanese concept aircraft ...

Mike :wiggle:

Oh this is just hangar flying, man!

Happens all the time. Sit around and talk about airplanes and what makes them work.

I'm sure Tim knows we aren't picking apart his design but rather talking about how the real one worked.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Hi Ken, you might enjoy this article.

Canards: design with care (page 1) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1985/1985%20-%200561.html)
Canards: design with care (page 2) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1985/1985%20-%200562.html)
Canards: design with care (page 3) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1985/1985%20-%200563.html)

Soon as I saw the page one graphic along the chord line showing c/g forward of center of lift, what you said made perfect sense. :engel016:

Appreciate the information.

Cheers,

Ken

[Piglet]

You all can pick it apart to your heart's content, I'm still gonna build it my way!:wavey::applause:


.probably knows what he's doing

-probably- being the KEY word....

[crashaz]

Your 'probably' though is light years ahead of our 'probably' Tim.:icon_lol:

[Piglet]

Your 'probably' though is light years ahead of our 'probably' Tim.:icon_lol:
Sounds like somethin' from Hitchhiker's Guide to Galaxy!

[peter12213]

LOL! :salute: