bill lyons Pa22

[Daveroo]

has anyone worked on Mr lyons Pa22 for fsx?..i installed it and it seems to have some "holes"? in it..but it "works"...hoping someone may have updated it

[robcap]

Hi,

If I could get my hands on the Gmax source (with permission ofcourse :salute:) I would love to give that a try!!!!!
I was just thinking about that this morning, when I read a magazine. Great little plane.
With the modeling bit done, I could do the texture mapping and animations, maybe some new gauges.....
So if someone could point me in that direction, I would be very glad.

Rob

[Lionheart]

I might suggest that, with respect, you dont ask Bill for his files to 'improve' them. That would be like going to Leonardo DaVinci or VanGogh and say you wish to have his original so you can 'improve' it.

Why not create a new one? Make a new shell and add all the bits on. It doesnt have to be super sophisticated, or you could do to it that things that no one else does, some really cool 'new concept' things that no one else has ever done before..

Dont be afraid to make your own.

And, out of respect for Bill, a great mentor and historic FS figure and father, dont try to remake his 'artwork', (aside from custom repaints of course).



<--- love his Tri-Pacer



Oh, also, on a side note; Bill didnt use Gmax except on the Waco. He hated it and loved working in FS Design Studio. That was his favorite brushes of choice.



Bill (his student)

[robcap]

I respect Bill L. as much as you do Bill :salute:
I'm not trying to improve what he did, I would just be happy to come near his work.
I just love the tri-pacer.
I'm not afraid to do the modeling, but what's done is done ;-) It's enough work to make it FSX compatible.

R.

[Lionheart]

Hey Rob,

Roger that.

:ernae:

I didnt mean to sound like FS police..

Could you imagine Bill making that thing for FSX, with unlimited poly count, 2048 textures, no more budgets on textures and vertice counts... He would have oil in the engine, tubes in the radios, fuel in the tanks, lol...

The wild part of his work was his programming and effects. He could do some cool 'technology' stuff in FS with code and all. He had these reflection tricks that I still havent figured out, some sort of semi-transparent blanket texture moving in the glass of the plexi and the gauges. He created rain splashes on the ground once for his Swedish biz jet, as well as rain mist kicking up from the tires when you were in the rain. His glass screen panel in that jet had all the various calculations for fuel and endurance, etc..

Some cool work.. .


Bill

[Slug Flyer]

I'm sorry to say that in some respects, Mr. Lyons' last works weren't as good as his earlier ones. The Tri-Pacer, for example, had a really hot-rodded flight model as I recall, and both the Tri-Pacer and Luscombe suffered from bad texture artifacts and corruption from being saved too many times in formats like DXT-3.

[Bjoern]

Bill Lyons doing native FSX stuff...I bet he would constantly set new benchmarks in detailing.

"Hey, there's dust on the glareshield!"
*Klick on the dust*
*Dustcloud in the cockpit*
*Glareshield clean*
:d

[MCDesigns]

The tri pacer package was my fav from Bill, flew that thing to pieces in FS9, really wish it was recompiled for FSX, would love to have it working again!

I totally agree with wanting Bill to do FSX work, with his knack for the small details and thinking outside the box, I can only imagine what great addons would come out from him

[Overshoe]

I have bad news and I have bad news.
1. There is no Gmax source. Bill worked in FSDS. Since Bill worked outside the SDK and did his own magic he has made it clear that NO source code would ever be released in any case. He has told me that nothing that is not now available will be released and in fact may no longer exist. It has been removed from his computer.

2. Although I never say never, there is a 99.9% certainty that Bill will never model anything for FSX. He does not even have FS (any version) installed on his computer and he limits his computer time strictly.

Possiblities:

Bill has given general permission to developers to try to update his planes (EXCEPT the Graf) for FSX. Without source code of course. Good luck.

[Ken Stallings]

Overshoe,

Appreciate the timely and accurate reply.

However, I feel like someone just shot my puppy! I don't know what makes me sadder really -- that this means nothing of Bill Lyon's genius in FSX, or zero hope of that ever changing.

Oh well, nothing in life lasts forever, including life itself!

Cheers,

Ken

[N2056]

I respect Bill's wishes on modifying his files. As much as I would like to tweak some of his planes I know that sometimes you need to leave well enough alone. I am looking at doing a Globe Swift in the hopefully not too distant future...but I would never think to mess with the one he made!

[Overshoe]

Overshoe,

Appreciate the timely and accurate reply.

However, I feel like someone just shot my puppy! I don't know what makes me sadder really -- that this means nothing of Bill Lyon's genius in FSX, or zero hope of that ever changing.

Oh well, nothing in life lasts forever, including life itself!

Cheers,

Ken

Yup, My puppy got shot about 2-1/2 years ago.
But others have stepped into the void and that is how it has always been. We were spoiled having Bill around for so long. Heck, The Old Hangar would not exist if not for Bill. But now it's up to others to spoil us :)

[Overshoe]

I respect Bill's wishes on modifying his files. As much as I would like to tweak some of his planes I know that sometimes you need to leave well enough alone. I am looking at doing a Globe Swift in the hopefully not too distant future...but I would never think to mess with the one he made!

A new Globe Swift would be a treat. That was a fun plane. Of course, Bill's was an FS2002 plane so it's twice removed fro FSX.

(and Bill has no objection to tweaking, but of course tweaks are very limited without source.)

[N2056]

I had the great luck of crossing paths at work with someone that owns a Swift in Maine, and I also have a local contact...so when I decide it's time hopefully these guys will help me out!

[Lionheart]

The tri pacer package was my fav from Bill, flew that thing to pieces in FS9, really wish it was recompiled for FSX, would love to have it working again!

I totally agree with wanting Bill to do FSX work, with his knack for the small details and thinking outside the box, I can only imagine what great addons would come out from him


I think that was my fave plane also. I loved how it flew. It was a real hotrod, landed awesome, great landing gear animations (loved how the nose dived when you hit the brakes, like a worn in oleo might do).

I thought his textures were done like that on purpose. they had a fabric appearence, like 'tooth' in the fabric. I have studied those textures often. I was just thinking about this perhaps 3 days ago when I was working on my own plane, wondering how he did those patterns..

Great planes..

That Sikorsky was also a fave of mine. Great for those hops in Hawaii...



Bill

[falcon409]

Bill, wasn't it the TriPacer release and the ensuing criticisms over what was perceived to have been a "too early" release by some that was the beginning of the end to Bill's modeling in FS?

I seem to remember something about folks on another forum really getting kinda ugly because they said he had released the aircraft without fully testing it and that the FDE was terrible and so on and so forth? I know there was a big deal about it and eventually Bill basically said "fine, you wanna be that way". . .see ya later. . .and he stepped away.

To be honest, I never read any of the posts, never had any direct knowledge of what actually started it, just that it was well publicized that Bill was pretty upset with the reaction by some individuals (and for good reason) and that he had had enough. Another fine example of rivet counters and so-called experts who actually know nothing at all, ruining the future possibilities of a master modeler. Imagine. . .we probably wouldn't even be discussing this had it not been for that encounter, we'd be enjoying the mastery of Bill Lyons in FSX..

Too bad.

[TeiscoDelRay]

I still fly mostly Bill's stuff in Fs9. He had a way of adding those little personal touches to his planes to make them come alive. Like the little one eyed dog in the back of the Goose that covers his eyes when I make a scary landing,,or the way the Goose frost up in a snow storm. Or how about the intercom on the S-43 that anounces info to the passengers and the co pilot that always smiles and looks around.

I was watching the video of the B17 from Accu Sim and noticed the pilot and co pilot where moving their heads and looking around and thinking Bill did that in several of his planes years ago.

I remember when I was learning to model for Fs 5 or (cant remember,,too many of them) some version of this timeless sim and I made a series of 30's racers. I asked Bill if I could put the view into the cockpit and not use a panel and of course he had already done that several times.

Bill is one of the nicest guys I have ever met and several times we got together and brain stormed,,his brain, my storm. Today Bill is making very cool little electric planes and flying them in school gyms and such. His Fs days are gone and just recently I asked him about how to properly start the Sikorsky and he said he forgot.

I can understand walking away from something you love if it becomes more than a hobby. I quit for about six years and just recentlly got back into it. I got FX and messed with it a bit and then replaced it with Fs9. FX ran ok but I missed the Fs9 stuff and mostly Bill's planes. So now I just fly his stuff and paint a few up once in awhile

Legends are rare in this fast and easy come world today but Bill is one for sure. I asked him once how he felt about being a legend and he smiled and said "who, me?".

[Slug Flyer]

Another fine example of rivet counters and so-called experts who actually know nothing at all, ruining the future possibilities of a master modeler.

I know enough to recognize the over-pixelization and random off-color effects of a texture saved too many times in a low-quality format during development, because I had made that mistake myself several times through carelessness while experimenting with repaints.

Yeah, some of the people who criticized the Tri-Pacer were probably rude about it, and it's a shame the way things turned out, but some of their beefs were legitimate. Great modelers are not infallible. The quality of Mr. Lyons' releases prior to that was probably part of why people were so perplexed by some of the problems with the Tri-Pacer.

[Ken Stallings]

I seem to remember something about folks on another forum really getting kinda ugly because they said he had released the aircraft without fully testing it and that the FDE was terrible and so on and so forth? I know there was a big deal about it and eventually Bill basically said "fine, you wanna be that way". . .see ya later. . .and he stepped away.

That's pretty much how I remember it. Bill's releases were simply the best combination of quality and value there was and it seemed a small cabal of people came out and really went to town on some of his aircraft, while the vat majority of us stood in shock and disappointment.

The sheer amount of hard work Bill put into every design was underappreciate by nearly everyone, including most of those who enthusiastically endorsed his work. It wasn't just the aircraft, but all the supporting scenery and the well thought upon concepts that tried to capture the beauty and personal nature of general aviation.

My final point is that Bill never lashed out at anyone. He was just too much the gentleman for that. He simply stepped away and the timing of the departure spoke volumes without him having to say anything. Considering how many years have passed without anyone else coming close to capturing that same combination of quality and value, even less so the unique personality of the packages, speaks ever more about the special talent we lost.

Like Tom and I wrote ... pretty much a gut kicker like having your puppy shot!

Ken

[fsafranek]

I've never understood why people get so upset about textures or flight models. Those are the two areas (gauges as well) that users can change to their heart's content. If people think something in those areas could use improvement there are many people with the skills who are more than happy to fix it.

The Tri-Pacer has always been a favorite of mine since I read a book titled, "Anyone Can Fly" by Jules Bergman. A great little plane. It would be nice to have have a good one for FSX.


Bill, wasn't it the TriPacer release and the ensuing criticisms over what was perceived to have been a "too early" release by some that was the beginning of the end to Bill's modeling in FS?

I seem to remember something about folks on another forum really getting kinda ugly because they said he had released the aircraft without fully testing it and that the FDE was terrible and so on and so forth? I know there was a big deal about it and eventually Bill basically said "fine, you wanna be that way". . .see ya later. . .and he stepped away.

To be honest, I never read any of the posts, never had any direct knowledge of what actually started it, just that it was well publicized that Bill was pretty upset with the reaction by some individuals (and for good reason) and that he had had enough. Another fine example of rivet counters and so-called experts who actually know nothing at all, ruining the future possibilities of a master modeler. Imagine. . .we probably wouldn't even be discussing this had it not been for that encounter, we'd be enjoying the mastery of Bill Lyons in FSX..

Too bad.

[falcon409]

. . . . .Considering how many years have passed without anyone else coming close to capturing that same combination of quality and value, even less so the unique personality of the packages, speaks ever more about the special talent we lost.

Like Tom and I wrote ... pretty much a gut kicker like having your puppy shot!

Ken
Well said Ken. He was unique in his abilities.:salute:

[Dimus]

Bill's creations were the first ones that I happily paid for to get. He was the reason I created a Paypal account. I fondly remember the Travel Air series that he made and the barnstorming scenery that came with them, including a speeding train that you could chase. The Goose package was another classic that brought back my childhood memories of the "Golden monkey" show. I was also amazed by how responsive and kind he was when I emailed him with support questions. A true gentleman! It is a pity we do not enjoy his talent in FSX.

Now I can say I smelled an escence of Bill Lyons in Bill Lionheart's Tailwind, the minute I stepped into the cockpit. I truly believe Bill is following up closely on Bill's footsteps. Keep up the great work Bill!:wavey:

[harleyman]

Yup...A true artist at his best for sure..

I also loved his Sikorsky...

[warchild]

speaking of the tri Pacer, i've been searching for a download of it for days, and it doesnt seem to be anywhere.. Does anyone know where a girl could get her hands on one???
Pam

[Overshoe]

Bill, wasn't it the TriPacer release and the ensuing criticisms over what was perceived to have been a "too early" release by some that was the beginning of the end to Bill's modeling in FS?


While I am not saying that things like that had no effect, it is far more complicated than that and some of Bill's reasons for quitting had nothing to do with FS.

RE: The various criticisms, the things that made Bill's work special to many of us were the very things that infuriated the nit-pickers, nay-sayers and rivet-counters. Bill was selling an experience and they just did not get it. (Still don't.) They wanted something else entirely. We see the same thing today when people cut and slash at certain developers. It isn't because those developers are bad, it is because those developers are not giving the cut & slashers exactly what _THEY_ want. And WHEN THEY DEMAND IT. (This is wasted effort, but I think the cut & slashers should get a life. Most of the developers actually have one.) And TeiscoDelRay who is even closer to Bill that I am/was will tell you that today Bill certainly has a life.

[Slug Flyer]

RE: The various criticisms, the things that made Bill's work special to many of us were the very things that infuriated the nit-pickers, nay-sayers and rivet-counters. Bill was selling an experience and they just did not get it. (Still don't.)

I can't imagine why they didn't "get" the model effortlessly clipping along 20 knots faster than its real-life top speed and texture corruption first-time repainters learn how to avoid. That was never an "experience" that Mr. Lyons had sold before.

Once again, don't get me wrong, some of the criticism was not as polite as it should have been and Mr. Lyons's departure is a loss to the hobby, but the "Bill could do no wrong, all of the critics were just philistines" attitude is a little over-the-top.

[Lionheart]

Hey Pam,

Go to Flightsim.com and look up Bill Lyons. It 'should' be there.



Falcon,

I think you are right. A few people were upset with the Tri-Pacer, such as the soundpack. They hurt his feelings and that was the beginning of the end.

I 'think' his Swedish biz jet was his last endeavor. Great plane.

Did anyone ever note how his ideas and programming always went into the next Flight Simulator? The Piper Cub he did was a huge success and started a popular website for all that owned it, where they would all fly together and meet at places. Next FS (FS2004) had a brilliant Cub in it. With the Swedish jet, he had done rain effects on the ground, moving wings, and a few other effects. They were in FSX when that came out. His rain drops hitting the ground was just a freaking brilliant bit of work.

Yep, as I think about it more and more, the Tri-Pacer was my funnest plane of his to fly. Second was the Pitcarin Autogyro from Golden Hawaii, and then the Sikorsky.

Did anyone get the Stinson package? You start off with a glider you build at your farm on a mountain near a small detailed town that has a Bijou theater. As you learn to fly, you get a small Pietonpol camper plane (homebuilt) and you fly that around. It has a batter dry-cell powered radio you listen to music too as you fly around. Has old tunes in it. You make a tent like hanger for it. Then you get a big new Stinson and it has a radio in the back with old tunes also, you make a first class hanger for it, and you fly that down to town below the mountain....

Later, in his Zeppelin package, he designs the Macon super zep to fly over the farm house on that mountain in AI traffic, lol...

Awesome work from an awesome, historic FS dev...

:salute:



Bill

[frontman83]

Hi All,
I'm new here and wanted to say hello. Bill has moved onto another hobby. He's back into RC flying. I don't know him but a friend of mine is friends with him, and he stops over to see him once in awhile. From what I gathered he has no interest in doing FS modeling anymore. What a shame. I always liked his FS models.

Cheers
Jim

[TeiscoDelRay]

Yes Bill still builds models but these are small electric rc planes. Bill lives about an hour away from me so we get together from time to time. His electric planes are the same quality that his virtual ones were and fly great. I will see him this summer at some electric plane meets and try to snap a pic when he isn't looking :)

[warchild]

Thanks Bill.. Found it.. I'll probably need to correct the alpha layers on the textures, and then i'll start seeing what thet FDe is like.. I dont want to change it really but just bring it into FSx. There are certain works of Art that just shouldnt be allowed to disappear, such as Bill Lyons and Milton Shupes aircraft. Hopefully, we can maintain these planes so that people can continue to enjoy them irregardless of what flight sim version they're running..

[egypt23spitfire]

,,,,welcome JIM hope you enjoy your stay:wavey:

................to me BILL N LYNN were legends

................the TRI was to me a whole new level of model

................wheels, skis, floats.

................tie downs, chocks ,tanks

................hangar, missions.

...............engine

................family, (plus lighted pipe in the ashtray)

...............and "virtual plus" (placement icons to easily get around))

..............and all for FREE

..............i thought all my xmas had come at once DEFINATE IMMERSION

..............just a brilliantly engineered package

................cause the MONOGRAM plastic model(with hunter and dead cougar) was one of my GA faves when i was a youngun

....................damn dem complainers i say damn en

[warchild]

I dont know what the heck the complainers were complaining about..
In FSX the little tripacer flys quite nicely for me. Only four gauges were inopperative, which says a lot because ive had some fs9 stuf where all the gauges failed fsx. There's some texture stuff where the alpha channels got flipped and the front windshield is pretty frosty but nothing that cant be fixed in an hour or two.
Over all, shes a sweet little plane.. I'm gonna have fun with her..
Pam

[guzler]

I don't think the thread originator was complaining, he was merely saying there were a few issues in FSX and was asking if anyone had done an update. I assume he doesn't know how to update a plane just like me. I read it as a question, not a complaint.

[warchild]

Oh No, No,, i was talking about the original complainers from the original release in FS9.. i know theres a big big difference between the way FS9 interprets an FDe and the way FSX does, but in FSX, this little girl ( yes, its a girl :;chuckles: ) flies real nice.. hehheh.. if people back then thought this bird flew badly, they should have tried Ito-Sans Boeing SST.. Now THERE was a bad flight model..

[NWarty]

For several years I always wondered why Bill left FS. The only thing I knew of was a random post saying that he had been ill. Many thanks to those posting here for the insight.

[Daube]

I dont know what the heck the complainers were complaining about..
In FSX the little tripacer flys quite nicely for me. Only four gauges were inopperative, which says a lot because ive had some fs9 stuf where all the gauges failed fsx. There's some texture stuff where the alpha channels got flipped and the front windshield is pretty frosty but nothing that cant be fixed in an hour or two.
Over all, shes a sweet little plane.. I'm gonna have fun with her..
Pam

Warchild I'm very curious to see if you will succeed in solving the texture problems.
When I tried importing this beautifull bird in FSX, I had severe display issues on the sides of the aircraft, the textures were being masked by some black part, I never understood why, nor how to solve this problem :/

[Lionheart]

He was also upset with FSX. Some things were taken out that were in FS2004, like views (panel views you can program in). He was on the Beta team and we all saw each others questions and notes. The changes to FS were overwhelming. I think that might have been a factor also.

Fun plane! Thanks for posting those screenshots from the Instructions Egypt. I had forgotten about a few of those.



Bill

[warchild]

Warchild I'm very curious to see if you will succeed in solving the texture problems.
When I tried importing this beautifull bird in FSX, I had severe display issues on the sides of the aircraft, the textures were being masked by some black part, I never understood why, nor how to solve this problem :/

yup.. same here.. on the port side it would be the cargo door on the starboard side, i'm not sure.. i'm gonna spend some time here and there seeing what i can do, but i dont have much self confidence when it comes to working with textures.. hopefully, someone with a lot more talent and experiene than i have will find a correction for them. i'd really love to see this plane flying in fsx, even as a port.. its worth it.. :)

[Ken Stallings]

I can't imagine why they didn't "get" the model effortlessly clipping along 20 knots faster than its real-life top speed and texture corruption first-time repainters learn how to avoid. That was never an "experience" that Mr. Lyons had sold before.

Once again, don't get me wrong, some of the criticism was not as polite as it should have been and Mr. Lyons's departure is a loss to the hobby, but the "Bill could do no wrong, all of the critics were just philistines" attitude is a little over-the-top.

That's interesting. On any given day, depending upon density altitude and temperature at altitude, I can obtain more than 20 knots of variance in indicated airspeed for a given power setting.

Does this mean I should consider the "flight model" of my Skyhawk and Cessna 310R "poorly modeled?"

BTW: I remember flying the Piper Tri-Pacer, and I do not recall it "effortlessly clipping along at 20 knots faster than its real life top speed." In fact, I vaguely remember there being a red line on the airspeed indicator, which defines Vne, and never getting close to it in level flight at full power, even at sea level.

But, perhaps my recollections are somehow flawed.

Cheers,

Ken

[Slug Flyer]

That's interesting. On any given day, depending upon density altitude and temperature at altitude, I can obtain more than 20 knots of variance in indicated airspeed for a given power setting.

Does this mean I should consider the "flight model" of my Skyhawk and Cessna 310R "poorly modeled?"

BTW: I remember flying the Piper Tri-Pacer, and I do not recall it "effortlessly clipping along at 20 knots faster than its real life top speed." In fact, I vaguely remember there being a red line on the airspeed indicator, which defines Vne, and never getting close to it in level flight at full power, even at sea level.

But, perhaps my recollections are somehow flawed.

Cheers,

Ken

Ken,

The Tri-Pacer as released flew like a veritable rocket for me, well in excess of any published real-world performance data. I am not the only one who thought so.

But, of course we were all just complaining for the fun of it, we really got a kick out of running one of the most beloved developers in the community down. :kilroy:

[stiz]

real planes differ from puplished specs anyway, which tend to be on a brand new aircraft and not one thats been through several oweners and seen a lot of miles.

Speaking of Bill, lets not forget Golden Wings or even his partner in crime Lynn and even Leon Louis who painted the liveing daylights outa everything Bill and lynn made :engel016:

[warchild]

I'm not sure that Vne is based on indicated air speed. My memory isnt what it used to be you see, but i sem to recall that the V numbers are based on true or corrected (?) airspeed.
One thing we have to keep in mind though is that FS9 was a pivot point in what people expected from aircraft. in the early days, it was enough to have a plane that looked reasonably close to what it was supposed to be and still have the flight model all messed up because most people didnt have a good grasp of what flight models did or how ( especially how ), and you got all kinds of behaviour from them that became accepted as just the way it is.. lots of arguments whent back and fourth about whether FS was a game or a simulator. It wasnt until it got towards the end of the fs9 era that folks began seeing more and more accurate representations. The planes were no longer just for fun. theyd started becoming serious simulations. Now days?/ it seems sometimes that nowdays its nothing but serious simulations. everything has to be so exact. mind you, i dont mind exactness, in fact, i keep striving to achieve greater and greater exactitude in my own work, but i'll never fly the tripacer because its exact. i'll fly it because it's fun. i got my virtual family with me and i can dream of stuffing the kid into the cargo hold.
Our perspectives changed around the time this was released. So did our expectations. it doesnt make it a bad plane. It simply is what it is, a very fun aircraft for a lazy afternoon.
Pam

[Ken Stallings]

In the 1970's manufacturers started to change their critical speeds from calibrated to indicated because they realized that calibrated is not predictable.

Today, the convention is critical speeds are either indicated, or in the case of aircraft capable of achieving something close to Mach, you can have critical speeds based on Mach ratio as well as indicated airspeed. This is because the nature of air flow changes so radically as it approaches Mach 1.0. This includes localized areas where changes in air pressures may cause air flow in certain sections of the aircraft to reach Mach 1.0 before other sections of the aircraft.

These speeds are referred to as Mach critical speeds.

Cheers,

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

real planes differ from puplished specs anyway, which tend to be on a brand new aircraft and not one thats been through several oweners and seen a lot of miles.

Speaking of Bill, lets not forget Golden Wings or even his partner in crime Lynn and even Leon Louis who painted the liveing daylights outa everything Bill and lynn made :engel016:

That's very true. They were one heck of a team. I just loved the little personal touches, like the sign on the hangar where you could have your name listed as the chief pilot! That was just so cool!

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

Ken,

The Tri-Pacer as released flew like a veritable rocket for me, well in excess of any published real-world performance data. I am not the only one who thought so.

But, of course we were all just complaining for the fun of it, we really got a kick out of running one of the most beloved developers in the community down. :kilroy:

We used to have a really cool member here, named El Pescador, who had an interesting thing he said to someone when they posted something so outrageous that it cut off any desire for further communication, and I will now quote it for you:

"You sir, shall enjoy no more rejoinder from me!"

[Slug Flyer]

We used to have a really cool member here, named El Pescador, who had an interesting thing he said to someone when they posted something so outrageous that it cut off any desire for further communication, and I will now quote it for you:

"You sir, shall enjoy no more rejoinder from me!"

And you, sir, shall enjoy no more sarcasm from me, since you clearly lack the capacity to recognize it.

[Lionheart]

Back on topic, I loved the way that Piper flew! Certainly its strongest quality.

:d

[warchild]

it still is :) .