Band of Brothers

[Cloud9Gal]

Yes, I know, we have had MANY threads about this HBO series, but after last night, I just felt compelled to write about it.
I finished watching the whole thing last night. From "Currahee" to "Points", I remained totally engrossed and awe-struck. I fell in love with Easy Company, and more so with Major Dick Winters. Wow! Throughout the whole story, I cried, I laughed, I got angry and in the end, felt so proud and grateful. I will NEVER forget the men of Easy company and will be eternally grateful for what they did for the world.

So I want to say THANK YOU, to all of you, who have posted reviews, thoughts, opinions about the Band of Brother series.
Had it not been for the SOH members raving about BOB, I would never have in a million years watched it, let alone, bought it. The purchase was definitely an investment and not an expense.


:salute::medals::salute:

[Odie]

Yes, I know, we have had MANY threads about this HBO series, but after last night, I just felt compelled to write about it.
I finished watching the whole thing last night. From "Currahee" to "Points", I remained totally engrossed and awe-struck. I fell in love with Easy Company, and more so with Major Dick Winters. Wow! Throughout the whole story, I cried, I laughed, I got angry and in the end, felt so proud and grateful. I will NEVER forget the men of Easy company and will be eternally grateful for what they did for the world.

So I want to say THANK YOU, to all of you, who have posted reviews, thoughts, opinions about the Band of Brother series.
Had it not been for the SOH members raving about BOB, I would never have in a million years watched it, let alone, bought it. The purchase was definitely an investment and not an expense.


:salute::medals::salute:

C9Gal, if you liked BOB, stay tuned for PACIFIC from HBO. Same team that produced BOB will be doing the same for the Pacific Theater. Debuting in mid-March.

[flyboyhunt05]

You should give Generation Kill a look at too. It is a HBO mini series about the 2003 Invasion of Iraq threw the eyes of 1st Recon. It is a lot more dirty than BOB, so it is isn't for everyone. But it is still a great series, and to me, better than BOB. But thats just me.

[Matt Wynn]

i can't wait for pacific, it looks mind blowing, Band of Brothers was one of my inspirations for doing what i do today... if it hadn't been for reading the book and watching the series... well who knows what i would be doing... i am eternally greatful to any armed force who has fought for what they believe, even admire the enemies as well, "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For he to-day that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother"

"Parade 'Shun.......TO THE FRONT SALUTE!"
:salute:

[TeaSea]

I would have you bear in mind that on average the actors in Band of Brothers....are 10 years older than the men\boys they portray.

[Ken Stallings]

HBO has very quietly and unassumingly become the best source of outstanding, realistic, and gritty war movies in the world today.

If you think the mini-series is excellent (and I certainly do) then go get a copy of Dick Winter's autobiography. It fills in much information and offers a few surprises. As good as the series was, it did include at least one gross historical inaccuracy and underplayed with nuance one historically accurate action by a main character.

Winter's book clarifies both.

Ken

[Ken Stallings]

I would have you bear in mind that on average the actors in Band of Brothers....are 10 years older than the men\boys they portray.

That is so very true in all war movies. The actors are so much older than the people they play. In his autobiographic movie, "To Hell and Back," Audie Murphy was certainly older, but he still had that "baby face" at the time he played himself in his own movie.

The vast majority of these heroic actions in World War II were carried out by young men below the age of 22. Many below the age of 20! Kids forced quickly to become men in a brutal crucible!

Ken

[Jagdflieger]

One of my platoon sergeants in VN was with the 101st Airborne Divison in WW II. I can't remember which regiment now, but he had three combat jump stars on his master wings. One each for Normandy, Arnhem and I believe Operation Varsity. I learned a good deal about soldiering from him. I had a previous tour with the 101st myself when I served under him, so we always had something to talk about.

There is also a gentleman in my shooting club who was with the 82nd Airborne Division (Field Artillery) who jumped into North Africa, Glider assaulted into Sicily and went in amphibiously at either Normandy or Anzio; I can't remember which right now. He teaches hunter safety and both my children are graduates of his program and not only better hunters as a result, but better citizens too.

I also once had a Sergeant Major many years ago who could wear all three aerial assault badges for the Army: Glider wings from WWII, Master Parachute wings from Special Forces and Air Assault wings. I believe he also made the jump with the 187th Regimental Combat Team in Korea. He ran a tight ship in a relaxed manner and always had the troops' wellfare at heart.

They just don't grow guys like these every day. Each one is/was a national treasure and hero in my book. They and the Band of Brothers (really all combat arms branches) were/are all cut from the same cloth. It was certainly my priveledge to serve with them.

[Bjoern]

Yep, BoB was good, but I like Generation Kill more.

[jim]

We had 16 million from WW2. Today we have about 5-8 million in the second Greatest Generation.
P.S. The Pacific theater was much much bloodier. As you watch it, remember that the Army was right alongside their Marine brothers on every island except a very few.

[MudMarine]

I suggest reading the books written by the diffrent members of Easy Company. Not all of the HBO special is spot on. Nothing on TV can depict war but the story of 101st brotherhood is truely what it's all about!

[Cloud9Gal]

I suggest reading the books written by the diffrent members of Easy Company. Not all of the HBO special is spot on. Nothing on TV can depict war but the story of 101st brotherhood is truely what it's all about!


MM? If you know the title of those books can you send them my way please?

[GT182]

I've had the honor of meet two to the "Band of Brothers" at breakfast..... Frank De Angelis and Richard "Red" Foley. They are the most humble gentlemen you'd ever want to meet.... just as most WWII vets are. Glad you got to watch it all the way thru C9G. AND... if you and the hubbie aren't doing anything the 1st Weekend in June..... come on east to Reading for MAAM's WII Weekend. It's their 20th anniversary, and will quite a sight to see.

Check out the info from the link in my sig. ;)

I've been told there wil be 3 B17s, 3 B-25s, a bunch of P-51s, possibly the Avro Lancaster from the Canadian Heritage Museum, plus the Reinactors with all their equipement, and a whole bunch more.

[Gdavis101]

Fantastic series, can't wait for Pacific!

[Chacha]

A very emotional War movie... loved it...


...If you loved the Band Of Brothers, wait for The Pacific, it will be premiered on March 14th...

Another Steven Spielberg...

...

[FengZ]

A very emotional War movie... loved it...


...If you loved the Band Of Brothers, wait for The Pacific, it will be premiered on March 14th...

Another Steven Spielberg...

...

now imagine taking the style of Band of Brothers, and applying that to Star Wars - taking place after Sith and New Hope...showing how the Empire crushes the Rebellion....every episode focusing on a specific story and directed by different directors (just like BoB)......would be so cool huh? hmm....

-feng

[Snuffy]

MM? If you know the title of those books can you send them my way please?

http://www.amazon.com/Band-Brothers-Regiment-Airborne-Normandy/dp/074322454X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445512&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/We-Who-Are-Alive-Remain/dp/0425227634/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445512&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Company-Soldier-Legendary-Sergeant/dp/031256323X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445615&sr=8-3
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Band-Brothers-Memoirs-Winters/dp/0425213757/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445615&sr=8-4

[Chacha]

now imagine taking the style of Band of Brothers, and applying that to Star Wars - taking place after Sith and New Hope...showing how the Empire crushes the Rebellion....every episode focusing on a specific story and directed by different directors (just like BoB)......would be so cool huh? hmm....

-feng


Oh man, FengZ,

What are you up to this days? :running:

You know something we do not know!

Share it with us!

When is the release? :running:

What is the title? :icon_lol:

.... That would be a COMPLETE AWESOMENESS! :applause:

[GT182]

Here's one to look for.....
"Tonight We Die As Men" by Ian Gardner and Roger Day. By Ospery Publishing.
"It is the most detailed history ever written about the battles that began the drive to free the European continent of the German armies." Quoted opening line in his Foreward for the book.


Mine is auotographed by Edward D. Shames of the 506th. And signed by him on 6-6-09 at MAAM's WWII Weekend.

[Lionheart]

I saw the last half of one episode last night. They had discovered a Nazi Jewish prison camp. Horrible.

Thank the Lord the war is over...


What an awesome mini series. Some extremely good actors and very well done movie sets.



Bill

[TARPSBird]

In 2007 Col. Ed Shames stopped by the Barnes & Noble where I work one day and we had an enjoyable conversation. In Band of Brothers Shames was made out to be quite an a-hole but he impressed me as being an outstanding person. He has not published his own Easy Company book but I believe he wrote the foreword in the Osprey book GT182 mentioned.

[Jagdflieger]

A few years ago, Lieutenant Lynn "Buck" Compton (a platoon leader in Easy Company) spoke at my unit's Christmas formal. He was quite a speaker.

For those that don't know, he went to law school after WWII and became a prosecuter in Los Angeles. He was the prosecuter in the infamous Sirhan Sirhan trial. He certainly served for a lifetime and not only helped vanquish the Nazis, but also put the man who assasinated Robert Kennedy behind bars for life.

What a life of service. Easy Company, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne; Los Angeles Police Department, a criminal prosecuter and finally a California Appeals Court judge.

[Bjoern]

now imagine taking the style of Band of Brothers, and applying that to Star Wars - taking place after Sith and New Hope...showing how the Empire crushes the Rebellion....every episode focusing on a specific story and directed by different directors (just like BoB)......would be so cool huh? hmm....

I'd prefer a "Clone Wars" scenario, like in "Republic Commando". Now that would be cool.

[HighGround22]

.
As a somewhat interesting anecdote regarding Band of Brothers: the actor who plays Dick Winters (name escapes me for the mo) is actually a hard-core Brit. Something like Hugh Laurie in House, he re-vamped his accent before applying for the role in BoB. Apparently (according to a blurb I read on the subject), the other actors and the casting staff had a hard time believing he wasn't a true "Muriken".

I also liked him very much in the series, "Life".

[Wild Bill Kelso]

It's Damian Lewis, Jon!

Funny thing:
I purchased the Band of Brothers DVD box recently (I love to watch movies and shows un-dubbed, just to improve my english...).
After watching all the episodes in two days - which was quite exhausting, because this show really knows how to raise emotion - the new "Life" season was aired on TV the following day. Watching "Life", I used to wonder why Col. Winters wears civil clothes...

Cheers,
Markus.

[RyanJames170]

Another on for you to watch C9G is Das Boot.. is quite a difrent movie it is verry good though

[6297J]

.
As a somewhat interesting anecdote regarding Band of Brothers: the actor who plays Dick Winters (name escapes me for the mo) is actually a hard-core Brit. Something like Hugh Laurie in House, he re-vamped his accent before applying for the role in BoB. Apparently (according to a blurb I read on the subject), the other actors and the casting staff had a hard time believing he wasn't a true "Muriken".

I also liked him very much in the series, "Life".

There are quite a few British actors in BoB (and The Wire to mention something otherwise completely unrelated)

Shame there aren't a few more British characters in the series given that there were quite a few of them in the area at the time after all :kilroy: (including my Great-Uncle Sonny, 2nd Battalion, Essex Regiment, now at Bayeux War Cemetary). I know it's the story of a few soldiers from the 101 but even so, you'd think they won the war single handed if you didn't know any better. Twas ever thus in Hollywood I suppose!

[Wild Bill Kelso]

...for you to watch C9G is Das Boot..

Another movie worth watching in original language... ;)

[Bjoern]

.
As a somewhat interesting anecdote regarding Band of Brothers: the actor who plays Dick Winters (name escapes me for the mo) is actually a hard-core Brit. Something like Hugh Laurie in House, he re-vamped his accent before applying for the role in BoB. Apparently (according to a blurb I read on the subject), the other actors and the casting staff had a hard time believing he wasn't a true "Muriken".

Alexander Skarsgard aka Brad "Iceman" Colbert from Generation Kill is actually - you guessed it right - a Swede. It's all just a matter of language training. Even I could pass of as an American with a bit of practice. ;)

[Cloud9Gal]

Another on for you to watch C9G is Das Boot.. is quite a difrent movie it is verry good though

Made note of it Bill! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[Cloud9Gal]

http://www.amazon.com/Band-Brothers-Regiment-Airborne-Normandy/dp/074322454X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445512&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/We-Who-Are-Alive-Remain/dp/0425227634/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445512&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Company-Soldier-Legendary-Sergeant/dp/031256323X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445615&sr=8-3
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Band-Brothers-Memoirs-Winters/dp/0425213757/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267445615&sr=8-4


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs153.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) Snuffy!

[Lionheart]

OH man... Das Boot is amazing. I read it when it came out back in either 1976 or 1984, cant remember. It was a NY Best Sellers list for a long while. Then they made a movie of it in Germany and it won awards for years. Took a while for us to get one translated. The first time I saw it, it was in German with subtitles.

Those guys went through HECK down there in those iron coffins. Smelly, horrible, cramped conditions, 20 to 30 days at a time.

The best part in the book was when they had to endure something like a week or more of an atlantic storm. Every so many hours, they would dive to 50 meters or so and rest for a while, then back to the surface to ride the mountains, poking out of walls of water, then sliding down into gigantic valleys of ocean water, bursting through the next edge.

Horrible...

In the book, the writer, a war correspondant (journalist) went on 3 patrols on that boat.

Side note; Boot is Boat in German, short in this case for Unterseeboot (Under Sea Boat or Submarine), which was directed towards U-Boots, short for subs in German.

Its a blessing we were able to find technologies for tracking down these subs. Its a shame for the loss of life. If we hadnt been able to shut down the U-Boot menace, the war could have been much worse and far more lives lost. The cost of war and life..


Bill

[FengZ]

Oh man, FengZ,

What are you up to this days? :running:

You know something we do not know!

Share it with us!

When is the release? :running:

What is the title? :icon_lol:

.... That would be a COMPLETE AWESOMENESS! :applause:

hehe, my mouth are sealed!

-feng

[warchild]

hmmm.. i'd like to watch some of these but i need to ask a question...

Watched a show not long ago called "The Lost Battalion".. near the end, the germans start walking in 72mm's on top of the good guys.. took me two days to come back.

armed with that information, are there trigger factors in these other shows like hat one?? am i going to end up in a corner ( jail, the psyche ward ).. or will it be ok??

[Lionheart]

Hey Pam,

The one I watched the other night, where they find the Jewish death camp, is 'not' for you. It put me down for a bit. Glad I saw the movie, but man, that was one rough part to deal with.. .




Bill

[arrowmaker]

I recently replaced my DVD boxset with the blu-ray version. Amazon were selling them for £15.98; practically giving them away. I thought I'd be a fool not to upgrade, at this price. The increase is PQ is well worth it, and I'd highly recommend the blu-ray version to anyone who has a player.

[Matt Wynn]

Pam, knowing you like i do, steer clear of Band Of Brothers, after my first operational tour i decided to watch it, in the Forest when they start walking in 88's well that had me departing my chair seeking cover as second instinct, then again i did watch it with the volume right up... but now i can look back on that moment and laugh... i've steeled myself to war, knowing what i do is un-avoidable but must be done to ensure safety for others...

back to Band of Brothers, yeah it's a great series, as you say theres quite a few Brits in it, and who Mentioned House.... i love that show... not as good as when Hugh Lawrie was in Blackadder but still good :jump:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GMwXMLQAoSg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GMwXMLQAoSg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[huub vink]

Years ago I bought the DVD box. My daughter has watched all episodes at least a dozen times (the first time together, but I think I did quit after the third time). She was very impressed and I'm convinced it contributed much to her insight.

Personally I think the fact they give a far more realistic view on war than the herioc war movies, which were made in the 50's and 60's, is the good thing of these series. However as these series are focussed on a very small part of the war, they often lift some events out of their context and make them sometimes more important than what they actually were.

As I grew up in Western Europe, my view on war has been distored by the fact I only saw the Hollywood coverage of the war. Therefore I hardly had realised the war in Eastern Europe had been much more decisive for this part of the world. It took me even longer to fully realise that Germans and Nazis are two very different things. And that facisme is not restricted to a few countries or a few people, but that perhaps a small fascist is hidden in all of us.

Cheers,
Huub

[Snuffy]

Warchild, Lets ask this question:

Have you seen the begining of Saving Private Ryan? If you had/have problems with that footage, then you may want to avoid Band ...

[Wild Bill Kelso]

The best part in the book was when they had to endure something like a week or more of an atlantic storm. Every so many hours, they would dive to 50 meters or so and rest for a while, then back to the surface to ride the mountains, poking out of walls of water, then sliding down into gigantic valleys of ocean water, bursting through the next edge.

The relief the crew must have felt when diving down from this mess - even if it was for a short term only - is also very well depicted in the movie!
No computer-animated effects, just some very authentic sets, talented actors and a manic director - what else do you need to create a good movie?


Its a blessing we were able to find technologies for tracking down these subs. Its a shame for the loss of life. If we hadnt been able to shut down the U-Boot menace, the war could have been much worse and far more lives lost. The cost of war and life..

Well said, Bill!

He did it before:


"The only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U Boat peril"
Winston Churchill ...

[miamieagle]

Good News!

The New Series call The Pacific Will bee Airing on March 14, 2010 on HBO.

Check it out Here http://www.hbo.com/index.html#/the-pacific (http://www.hbo.com/index.html#/the-pacific)

I already have in my colletion of Band of Brother Video pack. Now I plan to also have in my collection in the Future the Pacific series. Any one who fought in World war two whether in the ETO or in the PTO is a Heroe!:USA-flag:

[RyanJames170]

Made note of it Bill! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs001.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


C9G umm im Ryan not bill lol.. did you mean to comment on something that Lion Hart posted?

[Snuffy]

C9G umm im Ryan not bill lol.. did you mean to comment on something that Lion Hart posted?


To continue the confusion ... Bill's handle would be LIONHEART ... one word and not as you have it in the quote above. LOL!

I'd like to make an apology here for C9G ... but I'm afraid I can't as she obviously quoted you in her comment, so I have no idea what or who she was thinking of. :bump:

[RyanJames170]

To continue the confusion ... Bill's handle would be LIONHEART ... one word and not as you have it in the quote above. LOL!

I'd like to make an apology here for C9G ... but I'm afraid I can't as she obviously quoted you in her comment, so I have no idea what or who she was thinking of. :bump:

who knows maybe she posted to mine and was thinking of what Bill said and had one of those moments lol

[Snuffy]

who knows maybe she posted to mine and was thinking of what Bill said and had one of those moments lol

Exactly, who can tell with the mind of a woman! LOL!!

:running:

[Lionheart]

Hey, thats ok by me. I'll be Ryan, James, Henry... My mom calls me Robert, (my brothers name), and my brother even called me mom once, which that 'did' get to me, lol...



Bill

[TARPSBird]

I agree with Snuffy, if you can make it through the beach landing scenes of Saving Private Ryan you can probably tolerate just about any war movie. Although I personally thought the scene where the medic dies from his wounds while calling out for his mother was more gut-wrenching than the beach carnage.

[Bjoern]

For those wanting to risk a look into the russian side of things:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151852/

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Thank you for mentioning this side of the war too, Björn!
We better should not forget which country payed the highest price in this war...

But I think one of the many awesome things about "Band of Brothers" is that there isn't any attitude like "How the Easy Company won the war".
Their "conquest of the Obersalzberg" was close to creating such attitude, but still far enough...

[Toastmaker]

I wonder if the same style of show from this perspective would be as well received. . .

[TARPSBird]

I wonder if the same style of show from this perspective would be as well received. . .
Probably not here in the US (although I'd watch it, being a war movie fan), but I think it would do well with a German audience.

[Ken Stallings]

I wonder if the same style of show from this perspective would be as well received. . .

Not even a theoretical question. The movie is "Das Boot" and it was a very popular movie the world round and certainly in the United States.

Cheers,

Ken

[Toastmaker]

Not even a theoretical question. The movie is "Das Boot" and it was a very popular movie the world round and certainly in the United States.

Cheers,

Ken




No, it isn't. It was just a vehicle to allow me to post an interesting photo ! :icon_lol:

But, I remember a movie along those lines directed by Sam Peckinpaugh called "Cross of Iron". It wasn't nearly as well done as BoB but it wasn't bad either.

[Jagdflieger]

The director or the producer of "Das Boot" also made "Stalingrad" in the early 90s. It is of the same calibre and portrays a combat engeneer unit (Pionier Einheit) of the Whermacht in Stalingrad and is probably as close as we will come to a "Verband von Bruedern des deutschen Heers." I'm sure that it's long out circulations as it never achieved the popularity of "Das Boot," but a search on the web might find it.

[Lionheart]

Thanks for the heads up Jagdflieger.

Good to know.

Bill

[Wild Bill Kelso]

... but I think it would do well with a German audience.

No, it won't.

Obeying hard lessons of our past, we don't have any reason to idealize the Wehrmacht or its members.
It was a means of genozide. Period.

There is no good in evil.

I know this attitude is far different from the US point of view, but please try to comprehend...

Peace!
Markus.

[txnetcop]

It's almost time for: HBO's The Pacific

http://www.hbo.com/the-pacific/index.html
Ted
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[Bjoern]

I wonder if the same style of show from this perspective would be as well received. . .

I'd *so* watch it.

Should I ever have the means or money, I'd make a WW2 shooter played from the german side. Heavily scripted, but without any glorious BS like CoD or MoH. After all, you can fight how well you want, you're gonna lose anyways.




No, it won't.

Obeying hard lessons of our past, we don't have any reason to idealize the Wehrmacht or its members.
It was a means of genozide. Period.

There is no good in evil.

I know this attitude is far different from the US point of view, but please try to comprehend...

Peace!

Why, oh why can't we ease up on that subject in this country?
It's disgusting. You could tell so many fascinating stories from the war, but nooo, we're still guilty and humble, even after serveral generations.

Panzerbatallion 33 gets hammered because it uses the Afrika Korps' insignia (without the swastika), JG74 loses its name because Werner Mölders was a member of the Legion Condor, etc, etc...

I don't want to take this anymore.

This country needs a *realistic* confrontation with its past. Yes, the Wehrmacht was a tool for genocide, but it consisted of millions of men who fought because they had to or wanted to save whatever was of value to them. They endured heat, cold, years of war and POW camps after that just to get kicked in the arse without the slightest acknowledgement of their ordeals.
The genocide wasn't the idea of the common Gefreiten, but came from the highest ranks in the country.

The Waffen-SS is an entirely different topic since it was way more indoctrinated, but I refuse to see the Wehrmacht as a pure tool of terror. No way, no way at all!

[Ken Stallings]

No, it won't.

Obeying hard lessons of our past, we don't have any reason to idealize the Wehrmacht or its members.
It was a means of genozide. Period.

There is no good in evil.

I know this attitude is far different from the US point of view, but please try to comprehend...

Peace!
Markus.

I'm not going to necessarily disagree with your views becuase I can tell they are sincere and strive for positive moral value.

However, in my study of the war, I have determined many examples of Germans who did fight the war with honor even as they understand their macro cause lacked honor.

One particular example worthy of study is that of Werner Molders. His is a particularly tragic and yet compelling case of how good people can be trapped in an evil cause, but how they can retain their honor through their actions. Molders to make a long story short, was awarded the very first Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. After he learned about the nature of the Holocaust and the arrest of the Catholic Bishop of Munster, he mailed directly to Adolph Hitler all his medal and insignia, with a letter stating bluntly he "would never again wear the symbols of such an evil regime."

He then flew without authorization -- as the Luftwaffe IG of the Fighter Arm -- to an old squadron on the Russian Front and flew combat missions. There is at least one photo of him wearing a uniform beside his Me-109 sans all insignia and medals. Shortly after, Hitler ordered a Ju-52 to fly him back to Berlin. The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff, killing all onboard -- another case of a crash too convenient as to escape rightful suspicion it was an act of premediated murder to avoid a humiliating courts martial of a very popular Molders.

Cheers,

Ken

[Snuffy]

Personally, I think there's a major difference between patriotism for one's country and supporting something based on ideals of one individual of over 60 years ago.

Germany as a country should be proud of its past as not all of it is as bad as certain people are trying to make it appear. While its true there was some brutality associated with that past and its emblems, they are in fact all actual real life history. As long as a people embrace their heritage and not necessarily the ideals of the time I think it can be reconciled.

After all it wasn't Germany as a people that caused the evils of what happened, it was a single person with an ideal and the will and power to enforce his ideals, on a nation.

I think as Germans, you should have every right to be able to stand up and be proud of your past. After all, I have never seen any one national group's military so honored in every country as I do the German military, despite its supposed evil. All one has to do is take a look at any hobby, (aircraft sim, military modeling, computer games, etc. ... ) to realise that many people the world over have a facination with the German military. Look at the number of modelers here on SOH who for whaterver reasons, model German Luftwaffe aircraft left and right despite there being 6 or 7 others that have already done the same aircraft. I just don't see the same excitement spent on other nationality aircraft.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Why, oh why can't we ease up on that subject in this country?
It's disgusting. You could tell so many fascinating stories from the war, but nooo, we're still guilty and humble, even after serveral generations.

Why should we "ease up" on a subject as serious as this?
Would anything be cooler if we relaxed on this matter?
It's not a question of guilt.
It's about responsibility. The former President Richard v. Weizsäcker pointed it out clearly in his legendary speech on May 8th, 1985, the 40th anniversary of the war's end.

I don't feel guilty. I don't know what my grandfathers particulary did back then. One of them died at Stalingrad (presumably) some weeks before my father was born, so he never came to know him; the other one came home insane after being POW for 8 years. Remained a drooling wreck until he died 40 years later. If they had any guilt, they've payed for it.

What's wrong with humbleness?
I think it's one of the best human characteristics. The world is full of show-offs and loudmouths, do we germans really need to join in?

Since 1949, we have achieved a lot of things to be proud of, both East- and West-Germans. Isn't that enough? Do we have to base our tradition by all means in the period between 1933 and 1945?



Panzerbatallion 33 gets hammered because it uses the Afrika Korps' insignia (without the swastika)...
Why had this symbol be used? Seems to me like a more than obsolete provocation...


This country needs a *realistic* confrontation with its past.
Can't see what's unrealistic in my considerations...


Yes, the Wehrmacht was a tool for genocide, but it consisted of millions of men who fought because they had to or wanted to save whatever was of value to them.
Genocide can't be performed by a small bunch of villains. It wasn't the Menjou-bearded lunatic from Austria on his own. The whole system worked because thousands and millions of Germans didn't waste a single moment thinking about their personal share in making a murderous regime work. Each one is to blame. It wasn't „them up there“.

So I personally don't have any reason to acknowledge or idealize anything done by a german soldier between 1933 and 1945!


Ken:
Thank you for respecting my point of view!


One particular example worthy of study is that of Werner Molders. His is a particularly tragic and yet compelling case of how good people can be trapped in an evil cause, but how they can retain their honor through their actions. Molders to make a long story short, was awarded the very first Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. After he learned about the nature of the Holocaust and the arrest of the Catholic Bishop of Munster, he mailed directly to Adolph Hitler all his medal and insignia, with a letter stating bluntly he "would never again wear the symbols of such an evil regime." He then flew without authorization -- as the Luftwaffe IG of the Fighter Arm -- to an old squadron on the Russian Front and flew combat missions. There is at least one photo of him wearing a uniform beside his Me-109 sans all insignia and medals. Shortly after, Hitler ordered a Ju-52 to fly him back to Berlin. The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff, killing all onboard -- another case of a crash too convenient as to escape rightful suspicion it was an act of premediated murder to avoid a humiliating courts martial of a very popular Molders.
I don't know where this legend comes from, but a study of the „Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt der Bundeswehr“ (German Armed Forces Military History Research Office http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Armed_Forces_Military_History_Research_Offi ce ), released in 2004, shows that Mölders in fact didn't ever show any signs of dissence to the system.
http://www.mgfa.de/html/neuigkeiten_2005.php?display_va=4367397887577
This study concludes that Mölders always acted as a reliable follower of the NS regime. He was a role model for the performance-oriented officer. He did enjoy the media's reception of him being a „hero“ of the NS regime.

The crucial point in this study is that his military achievements can't be seperated from the historical and political background they happened in.

Like I said, there's no good in evil.

Side note:
Mölders died on November 22nd, 1941 on his way to the funeral of Ernst Udet, when his He 111 crashed at Breslau. Two on board survived the crash. The crash happened after engine failure in a thunderstorm. I can't believe that the Fuehrer had any influences on weather conditions...

Furthermore, I've never read of any evidence to confirm his alleged rejection of medals. Sounds like one more legend to me. He was given a state funeral in Berlin on 28 November 1941.

Can't see a „good man trapped“ here.

Mölders might have felt an ambigious relationship to the fascist system, but beyond any doubt, he wasn't part of the resistance. He proudly served as an outstanding embodiment of the system. I can't see any single reason to honour him!

Cheers,
Markus.

[Bjoern]

Why should we "ease up" on a subject as serious as this?
Would anything be cooler if we relaxed on this matter?
It's not a question of guilt.
It's about responsibility. The former President Richard v. Weizsäcker pointed it out clearly in his legendary speech on May 8th, 1985, the 40th anniversary of the war's end.

Yes, responsibility. Responsibility without the cramped humbleness.


I don't feel guilty. I don't know what my grandfathers particulary did back then. One of them died at Stalingrad (presumably) some weeks before my father was born, so he never came to know him; the other one came home insane after being POW for 8 years. Remained a drooling wreck until he died 40 years later. If they had any guilt, they've payed for it.

Well, grandfather one was a firefighter and thus didn't have to do any frontline service and grandfather two narrowly escaped a potential death sentence. He was assigned to the Volkssturm and got hidden in the cellar by his mother before either the SS or Russians could kill him.

But either death or a mental wreck...dang.


What's wrong with humbleness?
I think it's one of the best human characteristics. The world is full of show-offs and loudmouths, do we germans really need to join in?

A bit of backbone is never wrong. Humbleness isn't the best thing if practiced constantly.


Since 1949, we have achieved a lot of things to be proud of, both East- and West-Germans. Isn't that enough? Do we have to base our tradition by all means in the period between 1933 and 1945?

Well, militarily spoken WW2 was an astonishing feat for this country. From next to nothing to strength within six to seven years, from the home country to occupying most of the continent within three years. I call that nothing short of awesome.

So I can see the point of basing at least military traditions on that period.



Why had this symbol be used? Seems to me like a more than obsolete provocation...

See above.



Can't see what's unrealistic in my considerations...

Too humble, too guilt-ridden.



Genocide can't be performed by a small bunch of villains. It wasn't the Menjou-bearded lunatic from Austria on his own. The whole system worked because thousands and millions of Germans didn't waste a single moment thinking about their personal share in making a murderous regime work. Each one is to blame. It wasn't „them up there“.

Everyone can be turned into a murdering drone if you create the right environment.
It was a totalitarian system with a typical "with us or against us" characteristic. "Nay" sayers don't live long or at least well in that kind of system.

The east-german border guards were caught in the same struggle. No sane being would shoot unarmed cvilians despite a clear order, but if you always practically had a gun pointed at your back or the unfortunate option of a ticket to Bautzen or a miserable life for your whole family you practically had no option other than pulling the trigger.

It's the way the system worked.


So I personally don't have any reason to acknowledge or idealize anything done by a german soldier between 1933 and 1945!

You don't have to idealize anything.

Our local filmmakers have already proven that they can tell the story realistically and in a publically acceptable manner. Der Untergang, Das Boot, Stalingrad, Stauffenberg, etc...
So why not tell one of the simple soldier?



The crucial point in this study is that his military achievements can't be seperated from the historical and political background they happened in.

That just screams "double standard".

Hartmann, Rall, Steinhoff, Barkhorn...all aces from the war but founding fathers of the modern Luftwaffe.

Even some of the founding fathers of the FRG weren't really "clean".

[Ken Stallings]

Markus,

I have a book on my bookshelf right now with that photo of Molders in uniform sans all medals. I have no fewer than three authoritative post-war historical records that certify the letter was sent and Molders resigned his position as Fighter Arm IG and left his post without authority.

See this link:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/molders1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/molders/molders.htm&h=365&w=551&sz=32&tbnid=WZ2sFoPcLl5ZCM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3DWerner%2BMolders&hl=en&usg=__Lkmb7fYy4FNhZ2pYMtRNkkBppS4=&ei=KLyVS7-dKIOiswPPuIiYBw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBoQ9QEwAw

The book "Black Cross, Red Star" is considered one of the finest written on the Eastern Front air war. The photo in this link was taken well after he was awarded his Knight's Cross with Diamonds (then Germany's highest honor). That he isn't wearing it in this photo isn't an oversight on his part. Military custom is that aces flew with the Knight's Cross worn around the neck.

I realize the writeup in the link is poorly written and filled with gramatical errors. However, the photo is right out of my own copy of the book and the letter he wrote to Hitler is documented.

The confusion comes from an effort by British Intelligence after Molders died to drop leaflets over Germany with a purported letter Molder never did write -- one that urged Germans to embrace the Catholic faith against the Nazis. That was a propaganda effort that was clumsy. However, the letter Molders wrote to Hitler was kept confidential.

Ken

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Well, militarily spoken WW2 was an astonishing feat for this country. From next to nothing to strength within six to seven years, from the home country to occupying most of the continent within three years.

Sorry, Björn, but this was the same efficiency that made concentration camps, gas chambers and crematories work so smooth...
Can't see any honorable merits in these achievements!

I think it's illegitimate to pick up one or two aspects of choice out the fascist regime and declare them as "good".
This leads to trivialization.

Looks like we both can't create any consent in this matter...


Ken:
I can't evaluate the quality of the sources you mentioned but there are a lot of myths created around former members of totalitarian regimes. Depending on the point of view of those mythbuilders, even the most convinced followers were turned into heroes of resistance afterwards, as long as the legend created fits to their own interests.
The whole revisionist historiography is full of those legends.

I once read that "historiography is the projection of ideologies into the past".
So who's trying to turn a celebrated "hero" of the Nazi system into an immaculate resistance fighter, defying Hitler?

Cui bono? This is the basic question I ask when such legends occur.

David Irving once wrote some remarkable books on war history. Now he belongs to the crazy detestable Holocaust deniers, serving their purposes. His so-called "studies" - cui bono?

I don't have any reason to doubt on the assessment of the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office mentioned above. This institution is far from being known for any ideological biased studies...
How about your sources?

Cheers,
Markus.

[djscoo]

Back on topic, Stephen Colbert had Tom Hanks on his show last night to promote "The Pacific".

Part 1:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/266887/march-08-2010/tom-hanks-pt--1

Part 2 (featuring a teaser clip from the series):
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/266888/march-08-2010/tom-hanks-pt--2

[Bjoern]

Sorry, Björn, but this was the same efficiency that made concentration camps, gas chambers and crematories work so smooth...
Can't see any honorable merits in these achievements!

Concentration camps were SS business, not one of the Wehrmacht.

Sure, Wehrmachtunits *were* responsible for atrocities committed on the front, but far less than you think.

As I said, the "cleansing" of the population was to the greatest extent SS responsibility because they were, thanks to their thorough indoctrination, way more eager to conduct crimes against humanity.


I think it's illegitimate to pick up one or two aspects of choice out the fascist regime and declare them as "good".
This leads to trivialization.

And I say the whole matter is generally regarded as too trivial. Sure, the overall outcome of the twelve years is negative, but *just* negative?

My ethics teacher always told us to look at both sides of the issue before making a final decision, so why not use this approach universially?
There's no such thing as "pure" evil. Everyone has a, in his/her view, well founded motivation formed by experiences, surroundings and subsequent conclusions.



Looks like we both can't create any consent in this matter...

Well, you can't have everything. :icon_lol:

[Odie]

Tom Hanks on THE PACIFIC:

"Certainly, we wanted to honor U.S. bravery in The Pacific," Hanks says. "But we also wanted to have people say, 'We didn't know our troops did that to Japanese people.' "
He wants Americans to understand the glories — and the iniquities — of American history. How did this shrug-prone comedic actor transform himself into our most ambitious champion of U.S. history? And how is his vision of history shaping the way the past informs and, yes, entertains us?




I don't know if this is going to be BOB in the Pacific.....viewing will certainly tell.


Full article:

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1969606,00.html

[MyassisDragon]

If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism.
Now that's a very good conclusion!
Thank you.

[Snuffy]

If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. ...

I think its a little deeper than that, but you're certainly entitled to your views.



... It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.

No argument here with regard to the first part of this comment.

Unfortunately, looking at society today as a whole, No, I don't think anyone learned anything pertaining to racism as it still flourishes today. (People have just found a way of disquising it.)

[Bjoern]

If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.

You're my personal hero of the day! Excellent post! :salute:

[Ken Stallings]

If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism. Both the Axis and the Allies, to one degree or another, suffered from it. It is poison for any civilized society. If we did not learn that lesson, then we learned nothing from WWII.

That's a big amen! :engel016:

Ken

[m2pilot]

same, i love bob

[UKVoodoo]

If there is but one lesson to be learned from the massive death and destruction of WWII it is the evil of racism.

Unfortunately I think as in todays conflicts religion can be attributed to that too :(

[Toastmaker]

Unfortunately I think as in todays conflicts religion can be attributed to that too :(



Most certainly. But, not only today's conflicts, throughout Man's history also.

[Alan_A]

As a relatively new arrival here on SOH, I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to see a mature, adult discussion of a difficult topic. I've spent many years reading (though not posting too much) on another, well known, much larger site (the largest?) and am increasingly put off as each conversation there degenerates into a shouting match. I really appreciate the difference.

I have my own - pretty complicated - viewpoints about some of the issues that have been raised here. But that's not important now (to paraphrase Airplane!) It's just nice to find flightsimmers discussing - and disagreeing about - fascism and culpability, without coming to blows.

Looks like I might decide to relocate here.


Best,
Alan

[Bjoern]

As a relatively new arrival here on SOH, I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to see a mature, adult discussion of a difficult topic. I've spent many years reading (though not posting too much) on another, well known, much larger site (the largest?) and am increasingly put off as each conversation there degenerates into a shouting match. I really appreciate the difference.

That's mostly because we have mods here who close and delete threads quicker than one can say "Jizlback", which quite necessitates a mature discussion style. And I really appreciate that!

[Alan_A]

True, but the moderators on the other site (which I won't call AVSIM) seem pretty active these days, too... it's just that things seem to get out from under them faster.

I can't imagine this debate going on for so many posts over there without coming completely apart. It's impressive.


Best,
Alan

[Jagdflieger]

Welcome aboard Alan. We have our moments, but overal this is about the best plane to hang your hat.

[Alan_A]

Welcome aboard Alan. We have our moments, but overal this is about the best plane to hang your hat.

Thank you, sir. I think I'll land now, and unpack.


Best,
Alan

[Bjoern]

Thank you, sir. I think I'll land now, and unpack.

Beware though, the first round is always on the "newbies". :d

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Welcome Alan and thank you for your kind words!

I usually avoid participating in discussions about politics&religion (something I've learned at various support groups...), but I knew before that taking issue here would lead to a discussion restricted to a fact-bound and impersonal level. Just my sense of basic trust - glad to see it confirmed!

Cheers,
Markus.

[warchild]

Oh.. things here can get very very personal. A lot of guys here have more than one story to tell, and their history has left its indelible mark. But somehow, their humanity and reason shine through, and the pain and hurt, though known, rarerly if ever raises its hoary head.. We girls tend to think of everyone here as our guys, and frankly, there isnt a better bunch in the world ( but they do need to be smacked every now and then <evil grin > ).
Welcome to the outhouse.. Be sure to drop in at Canelos Cantina and the Canteen over on sim-outhouse.net. :)..