It's really not about the money!

[falcon409]

You can't be in the sim community for very long without at some point hearing a passing remark or reading a post somewhere about "Whatever happened to Emma Field for FSX?"
It has been frustrating for the Emmaites to have gone so long without their beloved Emma Field in FSX. I don't have inside information, nor am I privy to any of the goings on within the small group that is overseeing the production of EmmaX. I have been assured at various times by some of the significant folks in that group that it is being worked on and it is a priority now that TongassX has been released.

In the interim I produced a substitute Emma Field for FSX and posted it yesterday over on the Emma forums. To date there have been over 250 downloads. Not bad, but it also got me to thinking about profit and loss and what that small group of designers stood to make on this venture.

If they set the going price for EmmaX at, say $45., that would reward them with a take of about $11,300. To someone who's broke, like me, that sounds damn good, lol. But by my estimate, there are at least 3 or 4 designers working this project (possibly more but I'll use 4 for this example). With that, the individual money in hand becomes approx. $2300. Hmmmm, now it starts to look kinda meager, lol.

Finally, consider how much time they have amassed, individually, on this project. . .and I have no idea what that would even be, but I'd wager that it's more than just a few months, lol. Check Takealot Specials (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?takealot/) and Woolworths Specials (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?woolworths/). Sooooo, even if it was less than a year. . .say, 8 months for example. . .that reduces that tasty sum to about $350 a month. . . . .man, I sure hope those guys all have "real" jobs. lol

I don't see anyone producing payware strictly for the money they can make. It might be nice pocket change, but in the end, nobody can expect to get rich doing what they do. My guess is they also love the high that comes from producing the stuff we bitch about, lol. Check Acme Ad (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?acme/) and Bashas Ad (https://www.ladysavings.com/publix-weekly-ad/?bashas/). These guys are very good at what they do and if we don't rag on them too bad, they might actually keep doing it to the betterment of everyone involved.

IMHO:kilroy:

[spotlope]

Ed, from where I sit the situation is both more dire than what you painted, and less. To date, there are only two of us working on Emma X - Holger and myself - but ours aren't the only fingers in the pie. There's the boss, Francois, who needs to make some money off it as well, plus the fees charged by SimMarket and Flight1 (I'm assuming those are the venues we'll use for distribution, since we usually do). It's too early to get into speculation about pricing, but I can tell you that if Tongass is any indication, it'll do okay for us.

That's okay, not fantastic. FS design is a nice sideline business for me, but it's a long way from being a full-time paying gig. Funny you should bring this up, as I just blogged on the topic a few days ago at http://iblueyonder.wordpress.com/2009/11/01/what-happened-to-fanboy-friday-this-week/ . Still, it's probably the most fun thing I do, and I just love it when there's time for dev work. Just this week, I've been working hard on Emma X. We'll be making some annoucements about that soon, as there have been some changes in our thinking about how it'll work and be presented (nothing heinous, don't get worried), but again, that's for the boss to figure out. I'm just the lowly builder. :engel016:

[n4gix]

Although I work at FS development full-time, the only way I've been able to make it "work" for me is to have my fingers in as many pies as humanly possible... :ernae:

[spotlope]

I'm trying to cultivate simple needs. That helps, too. ;)

[dexthom]

Bill, eat more candy corn! :pop4:

[Gibbage]

250 downloads does NOT = 250 sales. Your talking about a small airport for 45$ getting 250 sales? Its not likley considering some of my more popular aircraft releases for less money have a hard time reaching that number. If downloads DID = sales, then all the dev's would be stinkin rich from the The Pirate Bay....

[falcon409]

250 downloads does NOT = 250 sales. Your talking about a small airport for 45$ getting 250 sales? Its not likley considering some of my more popular aircraft releases for less money have a hard time reaching that number. If downloads DID = sales, then all the dev's would be stinkin rich from the The Pirate Bay....
Yep, I understand all that Gibbage. . .it was a simple "what if" example. Realistically, what I offered is freeware, hence the numbers. It's not great but it fills a small void right now for anyone who wants at least something to fly in and out of til the real deal is ready.

[Mathias]

A payware product reaches just a fraction of a comparable freeware offering.
Now go check the average downloads over at SimV, AvSim and flightsim.com and you get the idea where FS has gone over the past couple of years.
A file that has reached 10.000 downloads on the freee sites within a couple of weeks 5 years ago barely gets 500 hits these days.

[Gibbage]

What if's are fun and all, but I wish they were true. I had to get a full time job to support my full time aircraft modeling carreer. I wish I could do more. I dont know how Piglet does such quality work, and give it out for free! He must have a NICE job! Or he is retired.

[IanP]

I can see valid points in everyone's posts here, but particularly the fact that I know a lot of developers and not one of them is "stinkin' rich". The odd one can afford to make a living out of it, but most are, as Kevin and Bill say, running one or more additonal jobs to pay the mortgage on top of their development time. I certainly wouldn't want to do it.

Unfortunately Mathias's comment about declining interest is a particularly apt one - especially in association with Kevin's about illegal copying and downloading. With illegal distribution increasing and legal sales diminishing, when the former was far larger than the latter to start with, there's only one direction that the industry can go and it's obviously not a good one.

[Thoe6969]

Yep, I understand all that Gibbage. . .it was a simple "what if" example. Realistically, what I offered is freeware, hence the numbers. It's not great but it fills a small void right now for anyone who wants at least something to fly in and out of til the real deal is ready. By the way thanks for your version of EMMA,I installed it last nite,it's quite nice. Bremmerton was my home base in that area but now it's Emma.

[MCDesigns]

Yep, I understand all that Gibbage. . .it was a simple "what if" example. Realistically, what I offered is freeware, hence the numbers. It's not great but it fills a small void right now for anyone who wants at least something to fly in and out of til the real deal is ready.


And just to play devils advocate, economics 101, what if (in theory) Bill and Holger lose sales because there is a better than default replacement?

That is the tough part of this community, the want to share your work for free, but also from a commercial developers standpoint, trying to find a niche and fill it before someone else does, either commercially or as freeware.

[crashaz]

I have had a chance to meet many payware developers...and I would definitely say they are not rich.
Anyone who has joined me @ flightsim conventions will back me up as well. Heck I have to have a real job to support my flightsim development habits... luckily I work @ designing software.... sure would be nice to have a fat contract now.

[krazycolin]

The other side to this is that the clients aren't willing to pay for a product that has gotten way better and costs a lot more not in terms of money but also time and effort to model/paint/code/ than it used to. This has given dev's little to no margin at all for making money.

There's obviously other things such as the economy, M$ pulling out, games moving towards the consoles...

In general though, I would say that declining interest is mostly due to the age of the platform and not so much what's in it. IF M$ had done an FS11 with a new box and new stuff in it, the market would have jumped. Perhaps not as much as it would if it was a totally new "game" but jumped nonetheless. And, let's be honest here... simming is fun, but combat is (in my eyes anyway) way more fun.

kc

[falcon409]

And just to play devils advocate, economics 101, what if (in theory) Bill and Holger lose sales because there is a better than default replacement?. . . . .
Ouch. . . .:kilroy:

[FAC257]

A file that has reached 10.000 downloads on the freee sites within a couple of weeks 5 years ago barely gets 500 hits these days.

I'm one of the ones probably contributing to this effect, but from an odd perspective and reasoning.

When I was flying FS9, I DL'd almost everything that fell within a large range of the types of scenery and aircraft that I enjoyed. I was a fanatic about checking Flightsim and Avsim everyday to see what was in the "New" download section. I had more planes and scenery than I ever needed. I had myself convinced I'd never need to buy a payware aircraft.

That changed when a certain bomber type I love came up as a payware and I broke down and bought it. From then on out I saw a place for payware aircraft along with freeware.

My perspective changed again when FSX was released and I saw the quality of the default FSX aircraft. From that point on, I decided that I wasn't going to use any freeware aircraft that weren't at least as visually pleasing inside and out to me as the defaults. I tossed the idea out of using ports early on including the huge payware hanger I had for FS9.

So where I find myself today is that I still look at freeware stuff in the libraries everyday, but have no interest in having any of them in the hanger. I also look at the quality of the freeware aircraft made by the collection of artists on this forum and am in awe of the talent and quality in many of the creations, but oddly because it's a "freeware" I'm not interested.

But even more odd is that I'll snatch up payware aircraft from the vendors on my trusted list that I like without hesitation. In fact I'm getting ready to go grab three new payware aircraft here in a few minutes.

This wierd atitude I've developed towards freeware aircraft because of FSX, is in no way a reflection of how I feel about the incredible quality of the true FSX freeware out there. It's just a change in the way I want this version of MSFS setup as compared to previous versions and years past.

BTW I do actually have one made for FSX freeware aircraft at the moment. The only reason I have it is to teach me something I want to learn and it's HD life will probably be ending sometime in the near future. I don't actually use it to fly from point A to point B.

FAC

[IanP]

Colin: I agree entirely about the costs going up, but prices not - although surely the decreased sales quantities aren't going to help at all with that? I'm assuming here that you're seeing the same trends that other developers are telling me that they do.

Your statement about the age of the sim I'm not so sure about though, because the massive cuts that I witnessed were around the time of the FSX release - everyone stopped developing/buying because they were waiting for this brilliant new sim, then were spectacularly underwhelmed by it on release, when FS9 looked better on their existing rigs and the sim world doesn't seem to have recovered. Of course everyone will have their own opinions on the whens and whys of the drop in interest though and we're probably all right and wrong to an extent.

I think most of us agree that the seeming move towards consoles is certainly a retrograde step. But strangely, with console titles being more controllable from a copy protection standpoint and vastly less difficult to develop for an support (fixed hardware and much more rigid standards) from a development point of view, wouldn't that potentially be a good thing? I don't know enough to be able to answer that.

Edit: Falcon/Michael: I seem to remember being told that Emma this time will be much more than simply the airfield? Bill might be able top clarify on that, but I while I can see Michael's point, I think that there'll be enough difference in this one that it won't be a direct conflict.

[Bjoern]

I'm still waiting for a company to experiment with a "pay as much as you want" approach.

Might be good for reclaiming some customers.

[IanP]

I'm still waiting for a company to experiment with a "pay as much as you want" approach.

Might be good for reclaiming some customers.

Most people will pay nothing. When one of the big bands (Coldplay? Someone like that) did exactly the thing you are suggesting, the average (mode and median) payment made was a massive nothing. Collecting most of the payments that were made cost more than the amount received. It was a stunt and unlikely to be repeated.

[warchild]

The only way i can make any of this work for me is because i have social security.. Straight up, i charge 200 dollars for my work if it's a brand new plane, and that lane, like the vulcan can take up to 11 months of 14 to 16 hour days and 7 day work weeks stretched on end..
No, it aint about the money at all..

[jdhaenens]

@ FAC 257: I just want to make sure you're good with freeware scenery, because I'd seriously question someone who would take a Killer Military payware over decent freeware:icon_lol:

[Bjoern]

Most people will pay nothing. When one of the big bands (Coldplay? Someone like that) did exactly the thing you are suggesting, the average (mode and median) payment made was a massive nothing. Collecting most of the payments that were made cost more than the amount received. It was a stunt and unlikely to be repeated.

Okay, then set the minimum amount to 0.5€ or 1$ or something.

[krazycolin]

It goes without saying that we are feeling the pinch too. Good thing we've got books, magazines, movies and TV to cover us otherwise I'd have to let go totally of four of the best AC artists I've ever had the pleasure of working with and that would surely suck big time.

This business, if you can call it that, has become way too cutthroat to actually survive without stepping on someone's toes somewhere... or sadly, without being ripped off in some way by someone, somewhere... Used to be that everyone helped each other out. I can remember those days... not so long ago. Seems to me that they are long gone...

It's sad to say that the future doesn't bode well for the "payware" dev who does it just for the bucks. Unless and until some big company (who?) comes up with a fortune to make a new sim from scratch using existing tech and that pushes the limits of what that can do, we're not going to see a "renaissance" of flight simming. I think that era is dying slowly but surely. It needs new life. Something to perk it up. Some new software that comes from this decade would be good. I worked on the game Battlefield 2 and I can tell you that this kind of engine, were it able to deal effectively with the coding that flight simming needs... well.. WOW. That WOULD be cool.

Anyway, suffice to say that Milviz isn't going "away" quite yet but... it hurts when sales aren't all that you hoped for.

Btw, Nine Inch Nails released an album and told people "pay what you will" and they actually made money off it. So, it is feasible to do it that way. Though I certainly wouldn't want to try it...

[FAC257]

Jim,

I'm still a big fan of freeware scenery. Specially really well done Florida military bases. :applause:

I'm almost completely the opposite when it comes to scenery. Other than wide area overhauls like UTX & FSG, the only payware scenery areas that I have are Fly Tampa's St. Maarten Complete and Joe Watson's Central Fla GA Airports Volumes. Everything else are freewares.

FAC

[n4gix]

The only way i can make any of this work for me is because i have social security...

I'm still a year away from being eligible to draw on my SS benefits, and even then will have to sacrifice 25% of my full benefits at age 61...

...however, that plus what I'm earning now will at least kick me up closer to the official poverty level here in the U.S. :USA-flag:

[Gibbage]

I'm still waiting for a company to experiment with a "pay as much as you want" approach.

Might be good for reclaiming some customers.

A company did. You know what? They averaged just over $2 for a FULL game. World of Goo. Look it up. If people are only willing to pay $2 for a full game, im scared to see what they are willing to pay for a single addon aircraft.

[djscoo]

Most people will pay nothing. When one of the big bands (Coldplay? Someone like that) did exactly the thing you are suggesting, the average (mode and median) payment made was a massive nothing. Collecting most of the payments that were made cost more than the amount received. It was a stunt and unlikely to be repeated.

It was Radiohead ("In Rainbows" album) , and you are correct. You could choose your own price for the pre-release download version, and most didn't pay. Their site pre-ordered vinyl and physical copies, and allowed you to download mp3's. It was marketing genius...they got a lot of press for it, and a lot of people downloaded it, then told their friends. After the release, the "choose-your-price" version was pulled, and sold at the normal price on itunes and the like. Supposedly they made more money off of the pre-order alone than all the sales of their previous album.

That business plan doesn't really transfer to flightsim, but then again isn't that kinda what donationware is?

[krazycolin]

Nine Inch Nails. the slip. And it was actually free to DL it. It only cost if you wanted the CD...

radiohead ah.. they were the first...

[warchild]

...however, that plus what I'm earning now will at least kick me up closer to the official poverty level here in the U.S. :USA-flag:

::LOL:: Oh Gods Bill, i can so totally relate.. it really sux dont it??

[Wozza]

Give it away for free,no amount of $$$ will buy that warm fuzzy feeling you get :D not to mention the freedom to tell the rivet counters to go **** and delete it if they dont like it ;)

[Piglet]

I dont know how Piglet does such quality work, and give it out for free! He must have a NICE job! Or he is retired.

LOL!
My A&P job gets me by. I lead a simple life, no wife or kids to worry about. No drug habits or lovechild payments either!
Time is one reason I stay freeware. If I went payware, or otherwise got involved, I would have to do so much more, than just making and releasing planes.
Since I stopped chasing the "Technology Dragon" I can concentrate on the actual business of poly pushing, and improve speed and workflow.
Wozza, got that right! :-)

[some1]

A company did. You know what? They averaged just over $2 for a FULL game. World of Goo. Look it up. If people are only willing to pay $2 for a full game, im scared to see what they are willing to pay for a single addon aircraft.

But they sold 83'250 copies, which even at average of 2$ per copy makes nice money for 2 people in 13 days. :)

http://2dboy.com/2009/10/26/pay-what-you-want-birthday-sale-wrap-up/

The last table is funny, shows which nations are 'cheap'.

[Bjoern]

A company did. You know what? They averaged just over $2 for a FULL game. World of Goo. Look it up. If people are only willing to pay $2 for a full game, im scared to see what they are willing to pay for a single addon aircraft.

A lot of small animals also produce a heap of dung. ;)

As I said, trying can't hurt. Do it over the course of the winter holidays with one or two products and see where it goes. Bonus bravery points if the product is brand new.

I bet that there are people out there who would pay the "regular" price nonetheless.



But they sold 83'250 copies, which even at average of 2$ per copy makes nice money for 2 people in 13 days. :)

http://2dboy.com/2009/10/26/pay-what-you-want-birthday-sale-wrap-up/

The last table is funny, shows which nations are 'cheap'.

Empeck's mentioning of WoG's success was what made me think the idea was also pretty nice to get into the flightsimming world.

[IanP]

WoG had major advertising from many sources - particularly both online and print gaming media. Is Little FS Developer going to get that?

Likewise, neither Radiohead nor NIN, I suspect, have any trouble paying the mortgage and as has been pointed out by several people, they had physical media backups for income in addition to the "free" or "pay what you like" download releases. Does the comparison really stand up when you compare it to a developer who only releases by download and has no physical media to fall back on for even a little income?

I was taking the physical media side out of the equation (sorry, I should have stated that) because it doesn't apply to the majority of FS developers.

[spotlope]

I'd be happy to go to a "pay what you please" model... just as soon as my mortgage holder, local grocer, utility company, and internet provider decide to do the same. Until then, I'd rather not volunteer to put my neck on the tracks in the hope that the train will be gentle.

[Bjoern]

Is Little FS Developer going to get that?

Online - yes. Print media - yes.

FS specific sites/magazines only though.


Does the comparison really stand up when you compare it to a developer who only releases by download and has no physical media to fall back on for even a little income?

Don't your products burned on a CD/DVD and shipped via mail count?

[MCDesigns]

To me, anyone (in general Bjoern) that would advocate a "pay as much as you want" business model is nothing more than someone that wants something for free. It defies all logic to let a customer set a vendors price point. How many times have we seen discussions (I use that term loosely) here where the customer complains about a vendors decisions on a product, especially price and this usually comes from a customers ignorance towards the development process and their "I want" factor.

[ryanbatc]

A payware product reaches just a fraction of a comparable freeware offering.
Now go check the average downloads over at SimV, AvSim and flightsim.com and you get the idea where FS has gone over the past couple of years.
A file that has reached 10.000 downloads on the freee sites within a couple of weeks 5 years ago barely gets 500 hits these days.

I'd say that's because the quality of freeware, and amt of freeware has gone down. But that's only because it takes a whole heck of lot more time to make native FSX stuff. And most people don't have the time or money to do it anymore for free.

[djscoo]

How many times have we seen discussions (I use that term loosely) here where the customer complains about a vendors decisions on a product, especially price and this usually comes from a customers ignorance towards the development process and their "I want" factor.

Here I'll repeat what I said in the last thread that had an argument about add-on prices.

Look at any other popular game: Arma, BF2, Crysis, ArmaII, Counterstrike, Team Fortress 2. These are some of the most popular online computer games currently. If you look at the modding/add-on communities of these games you'll see that extremely high quality add-ons are released for free on a regular basis. If someone were to release a single helicopter for ArmaII and try to charge $50, even $30 for it, they'd be laughed out of town.

[MCDesigns]

If someone were to release a single helicopter for ArmaII and try to charge $50, even $30 for it, they'd be laughed out of town.

Well aware, been there, done that. I went thru the same thing doing commercial work for SIMS2, BUT I also made plenty off it despite what critics had to say. The main difference is that payware is accepted in this community, so the analogy doesn't apply.

[djscoo]

Well aware, been there, done that. I went thru the same thing doing commercial work for SIMS2, BUT I also made plenty off it despite what critics had to say. The main difference is that payware is accepted in this community, so the analogy doesn't apply.

Flight Simulator is the exception to the rule, not the rule. Payware is accepted in other communities as well, just not $60 payware.

[Gibbage]

It all comes down to supply and demand. Right now, the market for FSX add-ons is VERY small, but the demand for quality is very high. So that small number needs to be able to support that high a quality. We are talking about sales counted in the hundreds, with development cost's in the thousands. World of Goo wold 80,000 units at an average of 2$, but what of there production cost's? It was a small indy dev, but game dev's get paid 60-100,000 a year. Two guys, take a year to dev a game, getting about 80,000 each, they may have broken even. Its not about braking even. Yes, they also have all the sales before this deal, (I paid 19.95 when it came out) but if they sold only using "pay what you want" they would of lost, since marketing, and transaction fees would of taken a good portion of there return.

The only way to make FSX dev viable is to get more customers, or find a way of reaching more people. Right now, there is no influx of new FS fans, so we need to find a way of reaching more of the current fans. Only about 10% visit forums. Also, the few that are left, are very hard-core, and frankly picky. In order to make a sale to them, we need to be better, raising cost's.

So we have less and less customers, demanding more and more. You can see the problem we are facing.

[crashaz]

No too mention the costs of doing business like 3D Max... yikes!

[Gibbage]

No too mention the costs of doing business like 3D Max... yikes!

Yes. A license for 3DS Max is $4995, plus Adove Photoshop at $699, and thats per team member. We do absorb those cost's over a few products, but a new version comes out every few years. Also the hardware to run that, like a $300 Wacom tablet, two $300 monitors, and a $1500 system. Thats just MY expenses.

[Bjoern]

To me, anyone (in general Bjoern) that would advocate a "pay as much as you want" business model is nothing more than someone that wants something for free. It defies all logic to let a customer set a vendors price point. How many times have we seen discussions (I use that term loosely) here where the customer complains about a vendors decisions on a product, especially price and this usually comes from a customers ignorance towards the development process and their "I want" factor.

1) I'm a student, so I have no fixed income.
2) I can work once a year for about a month.
3) Most of that money is spent on worldly things, however I can set thirty to fourty Euros aside for FSX.
4) I don't want to shoot myself in the leg financially for a FSX aircraft.
5) Personally, I consider 5 to 10€s (max) per add-on a fair deal. (YMMV.) Especially since there's still people out there doing stuff like this without ever wanting any compensation (Well, the exception being Porkopolis, lol). Also, a few posts ago I embraced the idea of a "minimum amount".
6) Lower prices keep complaints somewhat at bay, as the sense of being ripped off if the add-on is buggy or not to the customer's liking are kind of dampened.
7) It would be a feasible way of getting some interest and customers back.
8) There's people out there who have similar thoughts.
9) Customers are not the enemy.
10) I consider love and passion a huge factor in add-on development. With the cold business-like attitude around I get the impression that these two elements just play a marginal role and add-ons are developed because of potential sales (as demonstrated by the 456464789 P-51s around) rather than the "Boy, I like this airplane so much I want to have it in the sim!" factor. The products I appreciate the most are the ones that make you feel that the developer knows and loves this thing inside out and tries to mediate his passion to you with the model and not the cold perfection of some payware out there.

And on a side note: I find trying to live off FSX add-on sales darn risky. After all, it's just a hobby!

P.S: Thanks for the accusation.

P.P.S: I know this could hurt someone around here, but I really needed to post this.

[Gibbage]

All the really good products, like the FSD P-38, Aerosoft PBY, and all other really nice payware would of NEVER of seen the light of day if it was "just a hobby", at least not to the detail and quality level. The sky would be a rather lonely or ugly place if it was not for payware, as its just simply way too difficult to make add-on's for everyone to do it for free.

[crashaz]

The alternative is to wait for one of the very few freeware developers who make quality work to find the time to make it... which typically takes us much longer as we have 2nd lives and sometimes 3rds lol.

It is just the economy... tough for everyone all the way around... customers and payware developers.

[Piglet]

I've been building models for 30 years, rarely ever, did I sell any models. For the the last ten years I've been doing digital modelling. Since there is the internet and sim sites out there, I figured "why not upload my planes?" It's just the way I always did things.
Then there are those who came along, and said "I can make money in FS add-ons"
When the economy gets better, get a decent job, and go back to freeware. I bet you will be happier.
Just my take on all this...:ernae:

[Wozza]

The alternative is to wait for one of the very few freeware developers who make quality work to find the time to make it... which typically takes us much longer as we have 2nd lives and sometimes 3rds lol.

It is just the economy... tough for everyone all the way around... customers and payware developers.
Yeah 2 years and counting on this..bloody fsx with all its textures thankfully with the hold on fs development I may just may get it finished :D
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq218/au_wozza/trexwd2.jpg
...has it really been that long groaaan I need to get a finger out

[icarus]

many payware developers...and I would definitely say they are not rich.

exactly

[IanP]

No, again, I would have to agree with Kevin.

I play a lot of games with free content and while some of them may look nice, they all, without fail, use internal functions to do what they do, be it for ArmA, COH/DoW, RACE/rFactor or any other genre of title. They are not, in any way, comparable to the likes of PMDG, CS, A2A, etc which do massive amounts of work outside the sim engine - whether you like what they do or not, that is a fact.

OR you get a single developer working on a single external application (e.g. ArrCab, SquawkBox) but that then has to work on the work of others, who work on others.

You might see the odd, one or two, absolute groundbreaking add-ons per generation of the sim. You will not see what we have now with FS and the standard of add-ons we get without people working full time on them. That requires an income. I think Bill's comment sums that up nicely.

[Bjoern]

All the really good products, like the FSD P-38, Aerosoft PBY, and all other really nice payware would of NEVER of seen the light of day if it was "just a hobby", at least not to the detail and quality level.

The question is: Would anyone, except of the odd mentioning in one of those wishlist threads, miss them had they never been made?




The alternative is to wait for one of the very few freeware developers who make quality work to find the time to make it...

Solution: Gmax, SDK, Gimp.




I play a lot of games with free content and while some of them may look nice, they all, without fail, use internal functions to do what they do, be it for ArmA, COH/DoW, RACE/rFactor or any other genre of title. They are not, in any way, comparable to the likes of PMDG, CS, A2A, etc which do massive amounts of work outside the sim engine - whether you like what they do or not, that is a fact.

Do other games even *allow* working outside the sim engine?

If not, you're comparing apples with oranges here.

[crashaz]

Solution: Gmax, SDK, Gimp.



Not talking about the tools... although 3D MAX does allow for a lot more... freeware developers work @ their own pace... when they have time... when other world things going well.. when it is a work of love... sometimes never gets finished.

[crashaz]

Yeah 2 years and counting on this..bloody fsx with all its textures thankfully with the hold on fs development I may just may get it finished :D
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq218/au_wozza/trexwd2.jpg
...has it really been that long groaaan I need to get a finger out

MMMMmmmmmMMMM!!! Nice work Wozza!!:applause:

C'mon admit it... you like bumpmapping and the clear panel lines... I actually think lighting is simpler in FSX SDK.

[IanP]

If not, you're comparing apples with oranges here.

No. I'm not. You are when you say that other games only come with free add-ons, for exactly the reason you stated.

If all add-ons could only have, and only ever reach, the level of sophistication of the default aircraft and scenery models, you'd see a lot more freeware. The reason that you don't is because add-on models, add-on scenery and add-on utilities go vastly beyond what the base scenery and models do.

Your arguments for why everything should be free are based on the false premise that it is possible to do the amount people do, to the complexity that people do, for free. It doesn't matter how much you want it to be so, it isn't.

Edited to add: On the other hand, I disagree with those charging for sceneries and missions that only involve default objects and techniques. If you want to charge, you have to add new content, not just use what other people have created, in my opinion. But that is only my opinion and others' clearly differ.

[Gibbage]

Your arguments for why everything should be free are based on the false premise that it is possible to do the amount people do, to the complexity that people do, for free. It doesn't matter how much you want it to be so, it isn't.


Bingo. :applause:

As I stated, just the initial investment in software is over $6000, not to mention $2000 in hardware. Not many people are willing to make that sort of investment, plus THOUSANDS of hours of there time, for free. Sure youll have the few mod groups who work off of pirated copy's of Max and Adobe looking for a few things to put in your portfolion, but I dare anyone to find any free game mod that is up to the quality or standards that FSX payware is. Dont get me wrong, there is some amazing stuff for Crysis and ArmA II out there, but they simply cant compair to something like the FSD P-38.

[djscoo]

Dont get me wrong, there is some amazing stuff for Crysis and ArmA II out there, but they simply cant compair to something like the FSD P-38.
meh...

[krazycolin]

You may not like the P-38 but that's not the point that Kevin is making. He's say that you won't see that level of complexity or sophistication in any other game addon and he's correct about that.

The thing is, if a game like IL2 or Lock-on actually offered the ability to add sophisticated systems and coding as well as pushing the boundaries of what can be done visually, then I would think that you could make "payware" for those.

But, that's not the paradigm behind them as it is with MSFS. MSFS was designed from the ground up with the idea of addons built in. It has an SDK (albeit a crappy one) and all the stuff that one would expect for something of this nature.

kc

[Gibbage]

meh...

Then it should be easy for you to find a free mod of even that quality if you have such low openion of my work.

[djscoo]

Then it should be easy for you to find a free mod of even that quality if you have such low openion of my work.
I think it's more the fact that you're speaking of your own work...

[Gibbage]

I think it's more the fact that you're speaking of your own work...

I can ONLY speak of my own work. I feel a developer speaking of other people's work is not cool, but I did mention Aerosoft's amazing PBY.

*Edited to make things a little more clear. I just feel that since im a developer, I cant really speak about other developers products, positivly or negitivly, since there is a conflict of interest. I also dont have any other developers work (Other then the Aerosoft PBY) so I really CANT talk about them. If you think I dont complament others work though, your dead wrong. Read the Fw-190 threads and youll find me glowing about that product.

[IanP]

There's nothing "uncool" about stating that others work, in addition to your own, is of a higher standard than would be available if, as certain people would prefer, no charge could be made for it.

I can only speak of others' work, as mine is not of a standard that I would even consider the possibility of charging for, but I know how much work goes into it, how much cost is involved in developing it and that it simply wouldn't be possible as freeware.

The reason I dismiss any similarity between this and any other game I know of is that every other software title I know of that has the same extent of additional content available to the end user invariably has that functionality available at additional cost. That's a long sentence. Time for me to go to bed I think.

Night all! (Although it's actually half past morning now...)

[Bjoern]

Not talking about the tools... although 3D MAX does allow for a lot more... freeware developers work @ their own pace... when they have time... when other world things going well.. when it is a work of love... sometimes never gets finished.

I was thinking more in the lines of "go out there and do it yourself".




No. I'm not. You are when you say that other games only come with free add-ons, for exactly the reason you stated.

I can't remember stating that.


Your arguments for why everything should be free are based on the false premise that it is possible to do the amount people do, to the complexity that people do, for free. It doesn't matter how much you want it to be so, it isn't.

I still think that it is possible. Not in the relatively short timeframe that payware provides though, but it is still doable.

I could model an aircraft that is much more detailed than anything out there, way more realistic than anything Accusim can simulate and easy on the frames. It won't be finished in a year though.


Edited to add: On the other hand, I disagree with those charging for sceneries and missions that only involve default objects and techniques. If you want to charge, you have to add new content, not just use what other people have created, in my opinion. But that is only my opinion and others' clearly differ.

Charging for default objects should be punished.

[IanP]

I could model an aircraft that is much more detailed than anything out there, way more realistic than anything Accusim can simulate and easy on the frames. It won't be finished in a year though.

So where is it then? The entire community is waiting.

Seriously, I'm not actually asking that... I am sitting here thinking that you have just made the point exactly, though. This community - most game/sim communities - don't want to be waiting years between add-ons.

[Bjoern]

So where is it then? The entire community is waiting.

I wouldn't charge for it, so happy waiting. ;) :d


Seriously, I'm not actually asking that... I am sitting here thinking that you have just made the point exactly, though. This community - most game/sim communities - don't want to be waiting years between add-ons.

That and the clients mostly have their credit cards sitting very loosely in their wallets.

[IanP]

You're never going to shift your viewpoint, Bjoern, so this conversation has ended. You keep using only freeware, almost everyone else will keep paying for better.

Each to their own. Enjoy!

[Bjoern]

You're never going to shift your viewpoint, Bjoern, so this conversation has ended. You keep using only freeware, almost everyone else will keep paying for better.

Each to their own. Enjoy!

Kind of figured that as well.

Cheers Ian.

[Baron von Blutwurst]

Lionheart told me before I started doing the WWI stuff that I should be happy making enough for groceries every 6 months or so,He is absolutely correct!....Sure the Idea of quality Freeware is great....but....I spend over $400 on research material and blue-prints alone...might get that back....my time is of no consequence. I have a real job and the higher ups don't think my time is worth the money either...lol

as for add-ons for Half-Life and ArmA and the rest of that Ilk.....I am willing to bet they dont spend 18 hours a day for 6 months writing specialized XML code just to please the player...We modelers in this community do in fact have to do that....Then you can add on the 8 weeks of texture mapping and painting just so we can offer a Paintkit,(for Free) that you guys can whip off any paint in 2 hours with. By the way as a graphic artist,(and I do consider doing this as Graphic Arts),I charge $75/hour. and I get it. I spend far more time doing the Flight sim stuff than I ever thought I would and have the newly graying hair to prove it.

This whole concept of "Pay What You Want" is ridiculous. The SIM community should be thankful that Bill,Kevin,Lionheart to name a few charge as little as they do for the quality work they produce.

[Tweek]

Can see both sides of the arguement really. If you're going to start going into PMFG/Accusim levels of detail, then ultimately, it's going to cost you to create it, so, naturally, you'd at least want something in return to cover those costs (research materials, trips to visit real aircraft, etc).

However, that's based on the assumption that everything nowadays has to be to some incredible standard of detail. I, and I'm sure a lot of people, are more than happy with a decent external model, with the latest FSX bells and whistles, and a VC that doesn't look like it's made of lego. For any moderately experienced modeller/texture artist, that should be the easy part. The likes of Tim Conrad, Dave Garwood, Thomas Ruth and others have shown us that this is more than possible, so there's no reason freeware shouldn't continue to thrive, and I'm a bit surprised, although the situation has improved, that more freeware developers haven't been churning stuff out for FSX.

[crashaz]

I can only speak from the scenery building side of things.

I believe people were intimidated by the tools. I think the freeware developer is starting to look more closely at the toolkit now and are jumping in.

Thanks to those freeware developers who build tools to make the SDK more friendly for others to use.

Arno Gerretson, Luis-Feliz Tirado, Richard Ludowise, John Masterson and many others have made it soooo much easier to build freeware sceneries for FSX now.

So as good as we can create now... could a freeware developer put together something to match the quality of Orbx?

Of course not.... this is where money makes it roll.