Navigation in ETO

[Wildfowler]

I have just flown ETO in Freeflight and flew a Bristol Blenheim from RAF Wyton Cambridgeshire to (What was then) RAF Coventry at Bagington Warwickshire. I flew using the in flight map.

It was a pretty simple flight (Reason I chose it) took off from Wyton climbed to 9,000 feet on a heading of 270 degrees landing at Coventry 27 mins later.

I was trained by the Royal Air Force in Air Navigation. I have flown FS9 navigating using actual Air charts with good results and also CFS2.

My question is, how accurate is ETO. Is it possible to navigate within ETO as per real life using charts and bearings etc?

The main problem I can see is the lack of wind so there would be no need for triangles of velocites etc, unless anyone knows how to put wind in CFS3?

[Talon]

There are wind files you can use in free flight.When you chose your base you will see weather also,it has different types of clouds,snow and so forth.There are cumulus clouds files with wind also.


Talon

[O-1Driver]

WF,

As Al stated there are several weather formations in ETO that have wind in them. Look for the ones with wind 3, 6 and 12 knots in the description. these winds are out of 270 degrees.

You can make the wind any velocity and any direction you would like.

The wind will affect your TAS when in flight, faster downwind and slower in to the wind. By selecting runways that are laid out east and west you can practice crosswind landings in ETO Quick Combat.

There are also ETO missions that have localized wind and weather to be mission specific. the wind will only be present in the vicinity of the carrier to help you take off and land but not in the target area.

Hope this helps,

Steve

[chriseponymous]

I always thought it would add another touch of realism to the game if you could chose to navigate with instruments and maps. I guess with the fact that you have to reach waypoints to complete the mission may cause some problems as you have to be quite accurate. I have on many occasions had to push x for a split second to make sure a reach a waypoint even though Ive flown over it about 5 times. One question I have is how accurate are the placings of airfields and other buildings. I have found that some are not orientated correctly.

[O-1Driver]

I always thought it would add another touch of realism to the game if you could chose to navigate with instruments and maps. I guess with the fact that you have to reach waypoints to complete the mission may cause some problems as you have to be quite accurate. I have on many occasions had to push x for a split second to make sure a reach a waypoint even though Ive flown over it about 5 times. One question I have is how accurate are the placings of airfields and other buildings. I have found that some are not orientated correctly.

It would be possible to build a mission for advanced players without way points. You would simply place the first WP very close to the takeoff point with no other WPs. then provide a compass heading in the briefing along with the target destination (airfield) or target in relation to a prominent geographical feature like harbors, rivers etc. the player would have to watch his compass and stay on course to reach the target.

The mission goal would be a spawn that would only appear when the player got within the distance specified by the mission builder, 6k,8k,10k, or 12k. When the mission target spawn(aircraft, vehicles,ships or facility) is triggered by the player the magenta triangle will appear towards the mission target.

After the player destroys the target he would return home without WPs using his map and compass.

Pretty much a milk run, would be happy to build such a mission for you.

O-1

[Pat Pattle]

The cfs3 world is based on modern data rather than 1940's - there's roads and railways that should/shouldn't be there. Also if you compare lat/lons in the real world with those in cfs3 it's all a bit askew - but all the sims seem this way. Having said that they are vfr navigable using some 1940 pilot maps I have - but you only get the major routes.




One question I have is how accurate are the placings of airfields and other buildings. I have found that some are not orientated correctly


All the ACC 'authentic airfields' should be in about the right place and oriented correctly - though they have been tweaked to fit in with the cfs terrain ie roads and rivers have to be avoided (lats & lons out as above)
Layouts and building positions for these airfields are based on much research and are as accurate as possible given that there's only a few of us and a lot of the time only me, lol.
But I'll stick my neck out and say that our BoB airfields are THE most accurate in any flight sim (no matter what the Shockwave BoB2 & IL2 cross channel map boys may think ;))

Some of the original stock airfield locations are just plain wrong, Brooklands is miles away from where it should be for instance. As I find errors they are being corrected and if anyone knows of any please speak up as we want to get it as right as possible. :)

Clive :)

[BeauBrummie]

One of the worst airfeild gliches in stock CFS3 is having the RAF Chain Home stations as airfields, eg Drytree, rame head etc. Though they seem to be fixed in ETO

[ndicki]

Clive, I've got a pretty well complete set of 1942 AM flying maps covering most of the UK CFS3 area - if you need info on where things really were, I can scan the relevant part of the map if you'd like. Might help... Never thought of it before.

[Pat Pattle]

I mean to include of course that Flashgordon and Frosty have put many many hours into the global layer providing the literally hundreds of new 'generic' and authentic later war airfields - didn't intend it to sound like I did all the work! :redface:



One of the worst airfeild gliches in stock CFS3 is having the RAF Chain Home stations as airfields, eg Drytree, rame head etc. Though they seem to be fixed in ETO


Flash has gone back to RL at the moment, he could answer why it was done that way - there is a good reason for it though Jeff, it's not a glitch. :)



Clive, I've got a pretty well complete set of 1942 AM flying maps covering most of the UK CFS3 area - if you need info on where things really were, I can scan the relevant part of the map if you'd like. Might help... Never thought of it before.


Thanks for the offer Nigel - but I personally don't have the time to check each airfield location unfortunatley (over 300 I think!) though I am going to double check the south-east corner again since I found out that M$ got Brooklands so wrong.

[remcoc]

Hi mister Pat,

Personally I think we have to accept te fact that a model is always a simplifiaction of reallity (or as you read left and rigth: "the map is not the territory". But if you want to put some much time in checking I bow my head as a salute (I'am building some missions for the Attack in the West right now and experience myself how much effort goes in this kind of things).

A question still: "Flash has gone back to RL at the moment"

Enlighten me please. What's "RL"?

RemcoC

[Pat Pattle]

RL = Real life - that place that is filled with work, hassle, teenage children, ill-behaved pet dogs, family etc etc etc.

.....and from where we escape to CFS3 now and again :)

[lewis11777]

Not sure how possible it is but it would be nice if someone coulf fix the shore line near Rame Head. After taking off there and heading toward the sea, there is a kind of a U shaped inlet where the shore line actually comes up hill creating an unsitely deformity in the terrain. It is much more noticeable at closer distances. That are some other minor glitches but that is the one that I really dislike.

[chriseponymous]

For me the airfield accuracy is one of the best things about ETO and much work must of gone into the research. I need to add the amount of work people do for free is greatly appreciated! What I meant is I have noticed in my install that the hangers at airfields such as Tangmere and Duxford are to the south of the fields where as I think theyre on the north side. I might be wrong and probably shouldnt be so picky.. :redface:

[lewis11777]

RL = Real life - that place that is filled with work, hassle, teenage children, ill-behaved pet dogs, family etc etc etc.


I raised my younger brother for the last of his teenage years and had two dogs. I found that if you give em a good sound beating occasionally your life will be much more stress free. On occasion I would discipline the dogs as well!

:d

[HouseHobbit]

I have to say In ETO CFS3 or whatever I myself are impressed no matter how perfect or inperfect they may be..I'd love to see more objects in the cities, and several other items..
But to be honest, I am amazed by the many people here in the flight simmers groups who have worked so very hard for all of us..And having spent a few years in Europe I realize also it would be almost impossible to make a Combat simulator that gave a completly realisic view of any one place much less a complete continent...So I am building Scenery DB's to inprove my set up, so perhaps even in a small way I can again fly over the Roman Ruins in Trier..LOL:applause:

[Pat Pattle]

What I meant is I have noticed in my install that the hangers at airfields such as Tangmere and Duxford are to the south of the fields where as I think theyre on the north side. I might be wrong and probably shouldnt be so picky..

Please pick away Chris!! You're right..somewhere along the line those airfields have regained their stock gl entries :redface: and do indeed face south.
B*gger!!

Have fixed these and will ensure their inclusion in 1.3.
Now that'll teach me not to make rash statements, lol.

Thanks,
Clive :)

[chriseponymous]

Wonderful! I think the airfields are amazing in ETO they add so much realism to the game. If you dont mind me being picky I think Kenley is out of line too! :bump: I tried fixing it myself but it all went wrong :pop4:. Cheers Pat!

[Pat Pattle]

Chris - if you want to try again you'll need the global layer tool from the terrain sdk:

http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs3/downloads.aspx#sdk

and M$ Excel to edit the global_layer.csv file.

Find the airfield entry (eg Kenley is on line 635) and change the figure in column F 'Angle' by 180 (or whatever) then save the file..it asks twice for some reason, say 'yes' to everything it asks. Drag the file to the sdk global layer folder and run the make_gsl tool. This will produce a new gsl.lib file. drag this and the .csv file back to your cfs3/eto global layer folder and that's it (let it overwrite the old gsl.lib.)

You'll need to mod the entry in each era, just watch that the make_gsl tool won't work on anything other than 'global_layer.csv' so you'll have to rename each file in turn to produce the gsl.lib and then rename them back again to 1944_global_layer etcr.

It sounds a bit daunting but with practice it takes just minutes to do.

Just back everything up first! :)

[Old Tiger]

Not sure how possible it is but it would be nice if someone coulf fix the shore line near Rame Head. After taking off there and heading toward the sea, there is a kind of a U shaped inlet where the shore line actually comes up hill creating an unsitely deformity in the terrain. It is much more noticeable at closer distances. That are some other minor glitches but that is the one that I really dislike.

:wiggle:Speaking of Rame Head there is a :medals:Quick Combat Shipping Strike Generator in CFS3 by ndicki. :eek:I dont see Rame Head in ETO. This a great QC mission. I wonder can it be adapted to use in ETO.

:engel016:

[lewis11777]

It can be added if someone wants to put it in ETO, I just hope they fix the shoreline if they do.

[Old Tiger]

It can be added if someone wants to put it in ETO, I just hope they fix the shoreline if they do.

:wavey:Hey lewis11777. Just made a Eto mirrow image bakup, Gona try using that Quick Combat Shipping Strike Generator. If I screw up I can aways go back to Bakup.

[Mathias]

To answer the original question regarding navigation in CFS3:
No, can't be done accurately.
CFS 3, unlike it's other MS sisters, uses a flat map as opposed to a round world, thus real world coordinates are stretched and distorted.
This has been done to simplify the underlaying math for gunnery, esspecially for moving guns. It's just easier to calculate a bullet path in a square box than on a round surface.
The price for having manneable gunner stations, if you will.
This is also the reason why there is a map size limit in CFS3.

[Wildfowler]

To answer the original question regarding navigation in CFS3:
No, can't be done accurately.
CFS 3, unlike it's other MS sisters, uses a flat map as opposed to a round world, thus real world coordinates are stretched and distorted.
This has been done to simplify the underlaying math for gunnery, esspecially for moving guns. It's just easier to calculate a bullet path in a square box than on a round surface.
The price for having manneable gunner stations, if you will.
This is also the reason why there is a map size limit in CFS3.

Yes, that would screw up navigation over anything other than very short trips.

Mercator Charts work to the sphere distortion. Without the sphere in CFS3 the charts and bearings drawn on them would put you all over the place!

From what you are saying Magnetic North and True North variation are probably not taken into account either and forget the triangle of velocity to allow for wind!!

[chriseponymous]

Chris - if you want to try again you'll need the global layer tool from the terrain sdk:

http://www.microsoft.com/games/comba...loads.aspx#sdk (http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs3/downloads.aspx#sdk)

and M$ Excel to edit the global_layer.csv file.

Cheers for the tip worked like a charm! My airfields are now the right way round! :wiggle:

[Wildfowler]

WF,

As Al stated there are several weather formations in ETO that have wind in them. Look for the ones with wind 3, 6 and 12 knots in the description. these winds are out of 270 degrees.

You can make the wind any velocity and any direction you would like.

The wind will affect your TAS when in flight, faster downwind and slower in to the wind. By selecting runways that are laid out east and west you can practice crosswind landings in ETO Quick Combat.

There are also ETO missions that have localized wind and weather to be mission specific. the wind will only be present in the vicinity of the carrier to help you take off and land but not in the target area.

Hope this helps,

Steve

Looking at the weather selection in my ETO I can see all the different weather types but no details on wind?

Why am I missing these?

Cheers

[O-1Driver]

Looking at the weather selection in my ETO I can see all the different weather types but no details on wind?

Why am I missing these?

Cheers

Go to your QC menu under location and then weather. You are able to scroll down thru various weather choices. Near the bottom you will notice several files that are named Low Cumulus Wind 3, Low Cumulus Wind 6, and Low Cumulus Wind 12. You have to put your mouse pointer on the selection to read all of it.

These winds are from270 degrees due west. So if you pick an airfield in QC laid out north or south you can practice crosswind landings.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[O-1Driver]

If you want to change the wind direction and speed simply open the file up with note pad and at the top you will see the wind direction of 090. However please note that in CFS 3 the wind is exactly opposite of what is listed on the file. So to generate wind from South West 200 degrees you would need to enter 020 degrees. You can make the wind speed any amt you want.

All of the carrier missions in ETO and PTO already have the wind built in to the mission for you to enable carrier takeoff. Most are done with coordinates to restrict the wind to the immediate area of the carrier.

Steve

[Wildfowler]

Thanks!

I will try this out!!