Surprising a U-2 pilot?

[dhazelgrove]

From above? Can it be done?

Of course it can!!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc234/dhazelgrove/Screen-Saturday-007-2.jpg

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc234/dhazelgrove/Screen-Saturday-12.jpg

[calypsos]

It would have to done very quickly as the old Lighting will run out fuel within seconds of attaining that altitude.....and they are not good gliders!!

Is that the AS Lightning, ported over....or is Phil upgrading it to FSX?

[dhazelgrove]

Is that the AS Lightning, ported over....or is Phil upgrading it to FSX?

It is the port-over, with a few tweaks.

I keep hoping that an FSX-native set of models might be on the cards.....
Perhaps, one day.

Dave

[CBris]

It can be done. I have seen the photos.

No.1 from overhead. Lightning pilot tells U2 pilot "Look above you"

Very unimpressed U2 pilot climbs further saying "up yours limey"

Second Lightning "pounces" and says "Smile please..." Both photos with full data were pinned on the wall of an RAF Tower I once visited. Shan't tell you the altitude readouts or where I saw them, or I'd have to go for a cuppa...

But see them I did, and OMG! OK, so the frightnings were ballistic at photo time, but as a missile launch system - pretty damn good!

[Matt Wynn]

yeah on full reheat the F.MK6 was out of fuel in 15minutes flat, thats quite an achievement :applause:

[kilo delta]

It can be done. I have seen the photos.

No.1 from overhead. Lightning pilot tells U2 pilot "Look above you"

Very unimpressed U2 pilot climbs further saying "up yours limey"

Second Lightning "pounces" and says "Smile please..." Both photos with full data were pinned on the wall of an RAF Tower I once visited. Shan't tell you the altitude readouts or where I saw them, or I'd have to go for a cuppa...

But see them I did, and OMG! OK, so the frightnings were ballistic at photo time, but as a missile launch system - pretty damn good!

IIIRC the quoted U2 intercept was around 88,000ft and I've read reports of Lightnings having gone higher still....much higher:isadizzy::engel016:

[stiz]

yeah on full reheat the F.MK6 was out of fuel in 15minutes flat, thats quite an achievement :applause:

and not yet, to my understanding, beaten in an operational jet :d

[Matt Wynn]

nope, nothing comes even close to beating it, i think it still holds several 'climb-to' time records as well. what a great aircraft! Heres to the 'frightning' :ernae:

[CBris]

IIIRC the quoted U2 intercept was around 88,000ft and I've read reports of Lightnings having gone higher still....much higher:isadizzy::engel016:

True true... That plane could accelerate in the climb all the way to flame-out. Anyone remember the story of the AE who was doing taxi tests and ended up airborne? Now that was "Frightening". No bang seat, the lid up and only 35 ish hours in a single engined ab-initio trainer.

The Lightning never needed an excuse to fly. Still - most of the numbers should be declassified soon... THEN we shall know the truth.

[JIMJAM]

I really, really REALLY want a U-2.

Hint Hint......

With FS9 I had built a base out at Tonapah and had Alphasims SR-71,U-2 and a prototype.
The whole idea of black aircraft and secret bases was fun to do. I even had the Janet Airline ai installed.

[kilo delta]

Anyone remember the story of the AE who was doing taxi tests and ended up airborne? Now that was "Frightening". No bang seat, the lid up and only 35 ish hours in a single engined ab-initio trainer.

Yep..I heard that story too.....serious brown trousers moment for the "pilot":bump:

[peter12213]

the U2 was routinely intercepted at 70,000 some pitlots claim to have hit 90,000 but it was very dangerous, remember RAF pilots wore standard flight gear and not full pressure suits like U2 drivers you had to hit at least mach 1 or 2 at 32,000ft then zoom climb up to 70,000 to reach that altitude!! Yeah she got that name frightning because of the noise of the cartridge ignition lol makes a massive bang like a bomb when you start those Avons!!

[Bjoern]

yeah on full reheat the F.MK6 was out of fuel in 15minutes flat, thats quite an achievement :applause:

The Su-7 is said to run out of fuel in half that time when staying in afterburner.


I second the request for a FSX native EE Lightning.

[dhazelgrove]

the U2 was routinely intercepted at 70,000 some pitlots claim to have hit 90,000 but it was very dangerous, remember RAF pilots wore standard flight gear and not full pressure suits like U2 drivers you had to hit at least mach 1 or 2 at 32,000ft then zoom climb up to 70,000 to reach that altitude!! Yeah she got that name frightning because of the noise of the cartridge ignition lol makes a massive bang like a bomb when you start those Avons!!

They did wear full pressure suits initially, before the "let's upset the U-2" became frowned upon.

The Avon engine wasn't started with a cartridge, but by use of a 'mono' fuel, called AVPIN, to initially turn them over. It sounded like a sort of "whoosh BANG" right behind you. Best laxative known to man.....

Dave

[Nick C]

Anyone remember the story of the AE who was doing taxi tests and ended up airborne? Now that was "Frightening". No bang seat, the lid up and only 35 ish hours in a single engined ab-initio trainer.

I need to check with my mates Father. He was a Squadron Leader with a Lightning Squadron and I have a feeling that the Engineer was stationed on his base at the time of that incident. However, that could just be boyish boasting while running around shooting each other with air rifles (not to be practiced without an adult supervising!). The story also went on to say the chaps hair actually went white with fright and he was pensioned out of the RAF on medical grounds as his nerves were shot.

Sounds more to me like an officers mess yarn, told over a few bottles and a handful of cigars!

[BASys]

Hi Folks


I really, really REALLY want a U-2.
Something for while you wait - James May At The Edge of Space (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PmYItnlY5M).
11min clip from BBC programme series commemorating the moon landing.
Presented by James May, (Top Gear).

ATB
Paul

[kilo delta]

I need to check with my mates Father. He was a Squadron Leader with a Lightning Squadron and I have a feeling that the Engineer was stationed on his base at the time of that incident. However, that could just be boyish boasting while running around shooting each other with air rifles (not to be practiced without an adult supervising!). The story also went on to say the chaps hair actually went white with fright and he was pensioned out of the RAF on medical grounds as his nerves were shot.

Sounds more to me like an officers mess yarn, told over a few bottles and a handful of cigars!

It was Written about in the local newspapers at the time,apparently. Here's the story straight from the horse's mouth...so to speak.


"Lightning XM135 Inadvertent Flight

Some Background Considerations

In attempting to write a more detailed personal account of my unfortunate flight in Lightning XM135 back in July 1966, I think I should add some of the reasoning and reason why I attempted the test in the first place. This might remove some of the erroneous facts, misapprehensions and misconceptions which I have seen in some accounts of the event.

First I should explain that I was a qualified pilot, even although I was an R.A.F. Engineer Branch officer. I joined the R.A.F. as an apprentice in 1943, from where I gained a cadetship to university. At the university I read mechanical engineering and learnt to fly on Tiger Moths, with the University Air Squadron. On graduation, I was given the option to continue with an engineering career or to follow a General Duties (Flying) career. I chose the former path and the Air Ministry at that time, considered that there was merit in allowing me to qualify to 'wings' standard as a pilot, in the belief that an engineering officer with a pilot qualification, could more easily see the pilots point of view in aircraft maintenance matters. I too, thought this was a very good idea.

I qualified on Harvards, but my early engineering duties only allowed me to keep in flying practice on Chipmunks. Whilst I was at Kinloss, I managed to get checked out on Oxfords and on occasions assisted a qualified test pilot, to air test twin engine Neptunes. My only jet aircraft experience was as a passenger in the second seat of a Javelin T3 and again in the 'rumble' seat of a Canberra. In my service, one of my postings took me to 33MU Lyneham where as the C.O of a civilian manned aircraft storage unit, I had Canberra, Meteor and Lightning types, which were gradually being prepared for despatch to various flying unit tasks. When the Meteor and Canberra types had been cleared, the powers that be, decided that the MU should close after the last Lightning's had been despatched. Up until the last Canberra, I had a qualified and current test pilot on my staff for those aircraft, but he was not a current Lightning pilot. When a Lightning needed test flying, I had to call for any available pilot with a current test pilot rating. Most times I would find one who could be spared within a 24 or 36 hour period. So much for my personal and R.A.F unit background.

Lightning Mk 1A XM135

XM 135 was being prepared for despatch to a Target Facilities Flight, but over a period of weeks, it had been giving no end of trouble. Each time it was being flight tested, the pilot found that on the initial few yards of a take off run, the inverter, supplying power to the primary flight instruments, would cut out and the stand by inverter would have to cut in, clearly an unsatisfactory state of affairs. Electricians were using every trick in their trade to establish the cause, each time thinking that they had removed, replaced and tightened every likely component. With nothing out of order, they would seek another test flight. It was a Boscombe Down pilot who next attempted to fly the aircraft, found the same problem persisting and refused to fly until a more positive explanation could be determined.

Back to the drawing board, electricians decided to devise some tests which might isolate the fault and indicate roughly where and which component was at fault. They intended to ask the next test pilot to switch in and out parts of circuits, using trailing wires from the likely circuits to temporary switches in the cockpit and to do these electrical switchings before and after each few yards of a simulated take off run, when the fault was manifest. The temporary wires from internal circuitry required the cockpit canopy to be removed and in this state the aircraft was made ready for another air test. Being a pilot, it was easiest for me, as CO, to request the services of a qualified test pilot, from wherever I could find one, but for the next test on XM135, no pilot was available for at least another week. With my unit closing down, many civilians being made redundant, a timetable of clearance being upset with this 'rogue' aircraft, there was much tetchiness and irritation amongst my staff. The intended Boscombe Down pilot, knowing I was a pilot, suggested I might try the test myself. He suggested using an out of use runway (Runway36) as I would only be using 30 or 40 yards at a time. He suggested using a Land Rover to communicate with Air Traffic Control and to get their clearance for each movement of the aircraft. However, there was one remaining minor problem. I had only sat in a Lightning cockpit once before and I had no idea how to start its two Rolls Royce Avon engines! The Foreman of engine trades gave me a 5 minute briefing on how to do this and XM135 was towed out to Runway 05 on 22July 1966 for my electrical tests.

It was by way of extraordinary good fortune that my engine Foreman explained that, although I would not be needing reheat, that reheat needed the throttles to be pushed past a reheat 'gate' and one had to feel for the gate keys, behind the throttle, to unlock. My only other knowledge of the Lightning was what I could remember from pilot's notes. At each test flight by the qualified pilot, I would be in ATC with a copy pilot's notes, should he need any aircraft figures to be relayed to him. One or two figures stuck in my mind, namely that the undercarriage had a maximum speed before it should be retracted and I had an even vaguer figure of about 150 knots for a landing speed. Some extra knots would be required for each 1000 lbs. of unused fuel, but I did not need to bother with any such figures for the test, which I was to undertake.

The Ground Test

I was correctly strapped into the cockpit (seated on the in situ parachute and ejector seat) and after starting the engines and holding the aircraft static, on the brakes, I did the necessary preliminaries for the electrical checks in the cockpit, checking the notes I had scribbled on a notepad which lay on the coaming in front of me. All seemed ready for the first test and I indicated to the Land Rover to obtain ATC clearance for use of the short 30 or 40 yards of runway. Holding the brakes I gradually opened the throttles to about 90%. My feeling at the time was the unexpected heavy vibration of Avon power held against the brakes. I did a quick check of the temporary electrical switches and circuitry lights, then released the brakes. That initial punch from the thrust was quite remarkable and I moved the expected 30 to 40 yards before I throttled back and applied the brakes. So far so good. I made some notes, altered some more switch positions, noted the on/off lights and prepared for the next test. This was done in a similar fashion and I was leaving the 'fault' diagnosis to my electrical staff who would have to interpret my notes. I needed to do one more test and ATC had noted that I had only used about 100 yards total, so they were quite happy to clear me for a similar short distance. ATC had also been holding up a fuel bowser and trailer with 3600 gallon of AVTAG for awaiting C130 aircraft refuelling, they decided to allow the bowser to cross the runway. On opening the throttles for that final test, I obviously pushed them too far, misinterpreting the thrust, because of the unexpected heavy vibration and they got locked into reheat. Yes, I did use some expletives but I had no time to think of getting out of reheat, because in front of me, the bowser and trailer had just crossed the runway, from right to left, so my thoughts were to make sure I was missing them by sufficient margin. No, I couldn't steer to clear them; reheat takes you in a straight path like a bullet out of a gun. The time between finding myself in reheat and just missing the bowser was less than half the time I have taken to write this sentence.

Before my thoughts could again return to getting myself out of reheat, I was gathering speed and about to cross the main duty runway, where a Comet had just passed on its take off run. I then had no time to look for reheat gate keys, my eyes were on what next lay ahead. Two things, the end of the short runway 07 and just beyond was the small village of Bradenstoke which I just had to miss. There was no chance of stopping, non whatsoever. I had gained flying speed (that is what reheat is for, short sharp take offs) and I had no runway left. I did not need to heave it off the runway, the previous test pilot had trimmed it exactly for take off and only a slight backward touch on the stick and I was gathering height and speed. Then my thought was to get my speed back in case I should damage the undercarriage. Incidentally, I could not have raised the undercarriage; the ground servicing locks were in place for safety reasons. With only clear blue sky in front of me, I could then search and feel for those gate keys. Yes, I found them and thanked my lucky stars that my engine foreman had quite incidentally told me of their location and I was soon able to get the speed back to (I am guessing now) about 250knots. My next thoughts were to keep Lyneham airfield in sight and where had the Comet got to, the one I had missed a few seconds ago? Then I asked myself, should I eject and where and when? No, I could not; the safety pins were in the ejection seat and safe for servicing, not for flying. My only alternative then was to attempt a landing, but how does one interpolate or extrapolate Tiger Moth, Chipmunk, Harvard flying to a two engined, 11 ton, beast like the Lightning?

After regaining my bearings, a little composure and simply by observation, making sure that the Comet had been warned away, I decided I should attempt a landing on the duty runway and direction. I was trying to combine all my limited flying experience into a few minutes of DIY flight 'training' on a Lightning. It wasn't easy, but I must admit that some of the elementary rudiments of my proper flying training and flight theory were coming in useful. I needed to get the feel of the aircraft, if I was to get it back on the ground. My first approach was ridiculous, I could tell that my speed, height, rate of descent, even alignment wasn't correct and my best plot was to go round again. This time making sure that my throttles would be well below reheat position. A second approach was no better, I had some aspects better, but as the duty runway 25 is on the lip of an escarpment, with a valley floor beyond, my rate of descent took me below runway height and I found myself adding power to get back to the right level. More power also meant more speed and I was trying to get to something like 150 knots for landing, but the uncoordinated attempt was becoming a mess so I abandoned it, took myself away on a very wide circuit of Lyneham and decided to land in the opposite direction. This I thought would give me more time to get the 'feel' right and if I made a mess of the landing, I would overrun the runway and just drop (crash) into the valley beyond. In that direction, with a messed up landing, I would have no fear of crashing into Lyneham village.

The long final leg of this approach gave me the thinking time that I needed and I gradually got the feel that speed, alignment, rate of descent, height and approach angle were better. I plonked it down at about the right position off the runway threshold, but just forgot that I was in a nose wheel aircraft and emulated my best three wheelers in a Chipmunk or Harvard. The result was that I crunched the rubber block which encases the brake parachute cables. However, I had got down, but I then had to stop. I obviously knew the Lightning had a brake parachute, but where was the 'chute lever, button or knob? There, I found it marked Brake Chute and I pulled it and I could then look ahead and concentrate on keeping straight and somewhere near the centre line. I hung on to the brake lever, I wasn't slowing as much as I would like, so I just kept up my hand pressure on the brakes. I had about 100 yards of runway left when I stopped and even then, I didn't know that the brake parachute had dropped off as soon as it was deployed, because the cable had been severed as a result of my super tail wheel three pointer.

Events Immediately after the Flight

XM 135 was towed back to the hangar and I was taken to see the medical officer who gave me some pills to calm my nerves. I felt reasonably calm because I had almost killed myself on five occasions in that 12 minute flight, yet I had miraculously survived. What is more, I would see my wife and young family again. Two or three times in that same 12 minutes, I thought I would never ever see them again. My only priority was to save my own skin, I was not thinking about the non insured loss of a Lightning Mk 1A aircraft. The minor damage to the aircraft was repaired with a new set of brake shoes and a new rubber chute block. As a memento, I have kept that rubber block, one day it might be returned to XM135 at Duxford.

The Fault

Although the tests I did and the ensuing flight did not immediately provide a reason for the initial electrical fault, my electrical staff, with additional assistance from English Electric, Salmesbury eventually did. Apparently, in early versions of the Lightning, there was to be a ground test button fitted into the standby inverter circuit. It was never fitted to the Mk1A but the wires were left in the looms. It was one of these redundant wires which shorted on to the UHF radio as it moved on its trunnions when the aircraft nudged forward on take off. Who would have thought I should risk my life to find it, in the way I did?

Events Subsequent to the Flight

There was a subsequent Inquiry to find out what had happened and why and to make recommendations for it never to happen again. As I was the Commanding Officer of the Unit, I was responsible for my own as well as the service actions of all my staff. I was not acting against any orders in the Flight Order Book which I religiously kept up to date. But those orders did not cater for engineering officers doing investigative type checks on Lightning's. They were later amended. After the Unit Inquiry I had to go up in front of the Commander-in-Chief. That was when I thought my career would be placed in jeopardy. I even thought that my coveted 'wings' would be taken from me; I had no idea how the incident was being regarded by Command or indeed Air Ministry. But, as I stood in front of Air Marshal Sir Kenneth Porter, he read the proceedings, asked me if I agreed with his view that "With the limited flying experience that I had, the test would have been better left to an experienced and current Lightning test pilot." I agreed of course. He then told me to remove my hat, sit down and proceeded to tell me some of his unfortunate flying incidents in Mesopotamia in the Middle East. I was thankful that nothing more was to become of the incident and that I still had a job to do back at 33 Maintenance Unit, Lyneham.

I coped with all the official communications regarding the incident, but what I was unprepared for was the release of the story to the public. I had had very little experience of working with the press, certainly none with radio, TV, national and world press. I had no training in how to deal with their quest for news. My Command Headquarters suggested I went away on leave before press releases were made by Air Ministry. This I did and took my family off camping to Jesola, in Italy. Imagine my complete surprise when, on the first day of camp, on my way to find some ice, someone shouted "Hello Taffy, I've just been reading about your Lightning flight!!" The world seemed a very small place. On returning to the U.K. I was overwhelmed to find that the incident was still front line news. People wanted to write articles in newspapers, books, magazines, interviews on TV and radio and underhand attempts to hear my account of what had happened. Having admitted that I had made an unwise decision to do the ground tests, I decided that the unwanted publicity that I had attracted was in no way going to be for financial gain. I steadfastly refused offers although for a two page article in the Sunday Express, I requested the editors to make a contribution to the R.A.F. Benevolent Fund. Despite prompts, no moneys were ever handed over and I became very disillusioned with all publicity media. Some friends thought I had gained reward for an article in 'Mayfair'; it was written without my knowledge and authority, but, because it was factually correct, I had no redress from the Press Complaints Board. Nonetheless, I was extremely annoyed.

Some years after the incident, my hidden fears of high speed flight came to the surface and I had to spend two periods in hospital. I had not come to terms with the emotional side of the event. To return to my wife and family after five close encounters with death, was indeed a miraculous experience, but I had not been honest with myself, to accept it as such, so I needed psychiatric help. I could recall the technicalities of the flight without any hang-ups, but was unwilling to talk about that emotional side of the ordeal until I was placed under medical drugs and to bring those emotions to the surface. That was a rewarding experience and it gave me a much better understanding of people who might need that same kind of help, after similar unfortunate occurrences.

Forty Years On

I am now retired and living with my wife in Cheshire. Apart from being an active DIY plumber, carpenter, electrician handyman, my main pastime is involvement with family history. My inadvertent flight is still very vivid and in writing this personal account, I needed little prompting. Over the intervening years, I have received many letters and reminders from people whom I did not know, all praising my efforts to return myself and aircraft back to the ground safely. Yes, I have basked in some glory, when accounts of what happened, have been retold in social gatherings. I have never sought publicity, but whenever it became impossible to suppress, I have had to live with it. I enjoyed my career in the Royal Air Force, but not because of XM135!

Best regards

Taffy Holden"

[Nick C]

Thanks for posting that, it clears a few things up. My doubt for one! I actually now think it's a better story than the half baked one I used to tell myself.

[Roger]

I really enjoyed that quick read! Thanks for sharing:ernae:

[CBris]

Ditto what Nick said! The first time that story came to my ears was in 1972 - and even then it had suffered "Urban Legendisation"...

[Nick C]

My chumbly is off to have a word with his father to see if it was indeed his plane being worked on, but this 'fact' may have been by told this by his older brothers and therefore open to doubt!

[centuryseries]

Yes and 'that' Lightning is now at Duxford on display I believe! :jump:

[michael davies]

Better yet he did a whole follow on program about that one flight alone, showed training and actually flight, essential footage of cockpits for budding U2 builders, highly recommened if you like that sort of thing.

Best

Michael


Hi Folks


Something for while you wait - James May At The Edge of Space (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PmYItnlY5M).
11min clip from BBC programme series commemorating the moon landing.
Presented by James May, (Top Gear).

ATB
Paul

[Nick C]

Well it seems Squadron Leader Derek Durling did indeed fly this aircraft.

[BASys]

Hi Folks


Better yet
he did a whole follow on program about that one flight alone,
showed training and actually flight,
essential footage of cockpits for budding U2 builders,
highly recommened if you like that sort of thing.
Oooo... any links ?
I'd stopped watching the box 5 years ago. :icon_lol:

ATB
Paul

[wilycoyote4]

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/perabrown/4264/
James training and some scenes from flight.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/perabrown/4253/
James' flight in the U-2 trainer.

You can download from the site----see button under the screen---at about 43MB each. You must convert the file or play it with its proper player.

Hope this helps.

[tigisfat]

There are so many accounts here, and half of them have been disproven or challenged by yet more accounts. Who's to know what's true at this point? What's the secret to this aircraft's alleged incredible performance? What is so different about it? In terms of jet design, it looks rather primitive. Would someone who really knows please educate me as to it's real performance figures? They aren't secret anymore.

[michael davies]

Well I had it saved on SkyHD but someone in the household thought Timmytime and Waybaloo would be a better usage of storage space !, so I cant tell any more, just that it was a program all about James May and what they had to do to get a flight in the U-2, let me get some sleep after nights and then dig around the web to see if I can see it anywhere, as I want a copy of it myself.

Best

Michael

Addendum, here you go http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/proginfo/tv/2009/wk25/unplaced.shtml#unplaced_moonseason3 not sure how to get a good DVD copy yet but it seems both, or at least the one you quoted, appear on you Tube in some guise.


Hi Folks


Oooo... any links ?
I'd stopped watching the box 5 years ago. :icon_lol:

ATB
Paul

[michael davies]

I think its 'real' performance is still classified.

There is a local yarn around these (Suffolk) parts about a Wattisham Lightning.

For several months UFOs had been spotted near the East coast of Suffolk and RAF Bentwaters / Woodbridge, being as Wattisham was tasked with aerial defense they were often scrambled, but the standard approach left them either too slow or too low to make and effective intercept.

Some bright wag thought it might be good to head West for a few miles, about 20 the fable goes, and then turn 180, accelerate to max speed at low level and then zoom climb to intercept the UFO over the Suffolk coast.

Said tactic was duly applied and again no UFO intercept was achieved, however, about a mile each side of the high speed pass for much of the length of Suffolk had numerous broken windows due to the Lightning Mach 2 high speed run.

It is said this was never repeated and the idea quietly shelved :).

THe lightnings performance is sheer grunt, its power over mass, the piggy back engine layout produced a very clean and small fuselage, the nearest chronlogical equivalent would be the Phantom but the side by side engine layout presents quite a large frontal surface area and the Phantom is operationally much heavier, over 20,000lbs if fully loaded, both are close in empty weight and wet thrust and even top speed, but the Lightning gets there much quicker, especially the earlier F1 which is lighter yet.

What the Lightning never had though was endurance, it was said that in full AB zoom climb, the fuel went down as fast as the altimeter went up.

Some of the passion is obviously national chest thumping, like the Spitfire, Lancaster, Concorde, etc, back in the days when we had an industry to be proud of, but some was technical advantage and engineering skill.

Best

Michael



There are so many accounts here, and half of them have been disproven or challenged by yet more accounts. Who's to know what's true at this point? What's the secret to this aircraft's alleged incredible performance? What is so different about it? In terms of jet design, it looks rather primitive. Would someone who really knows please educate me as to it's real performance figures? They aren't secret anymore.

[CBris]

The engineer officers flight, at least, is a proven. As for the "bounces" on the U2 - all I can say is that I have seen the gun cam photos. Unfortunately both the tower (where I saw the photos) and the U2 no longer exist. But that's for RAF Akrotiri personnel to know. As for the Lightnings - one or two are probably still being kept reasonably close to restorable I would guess.

As for the Urban legends that surround it... Here's another. You all know that aluminium "speed tape" that us techs love to use for a spot of BDR (Battle Damage Repair). Well that was tested on lightnings and didn't come off, no matter how fast it flew. Good stuff, that speed tape :)

And then there was the famous TV demonstration presented by Raymond Baxter (of Tomorrow's World fame). I think it was a Farnborough report and they dispatched a Lightning to take a photo of somewhere (Amsterdam?). The photo was presented live on TV eight flight minutes or so and a few darkroom minutes later.

Perhaps the Lightnig data is no longer classified, who knows. I'd go so far as to say that no one ever found out really. It wasn't called "Frightning" for nothing. With a name like that I'd even go so far as to say that the Empire Test Pilot School people christened it...

But if they did...

I am sure we'd just love to be amazed here

[stiz]

one or two are probably still being kept reasonably close to restorable I would guess.


there was one still flying in south africa as of a couple years ago, dont know if its still flying or not?

[Quixoticish]

there was one still flying in south africa as of a couple years ago, dont know if its still flying or not?

There are four flying in South Africa, two T.5's and two F.6's if memory serves, along with a trio of Buccaneers, seven Hunters and a Strikemaster.

[BASys]

Hi Folks

Thanks WilyCoyote & Michael for those James May U2 links.

Much appreciated.
ATB
Paul

[michael davies]

Ooops, sorry half asleep this morning LOL, thanks for the link, much appreciated.

Kindest

Michael


http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/perabrown/4264/
James training and some scenes from flight.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/perabrown/4253/
James' flight in the U-2 trainer.

You can download from the site----see button under the screen---at about 43MB each. You must convert the file or play it with its proper player.

Hope this helps.

[Barfly]

As far as 'ballistic' altitude performance of the Lightning, I'm inclined to believe it. I talked to an old F106 driver years ago who claimed similar performance - as Pete stated above, you could climb in AB to a certain altitude, accelerate, and zoom climb to 90000 ft. I can't imagine it could sustain level, controllable performance at anything above the 50s though.

[kilo delta]

ThunderCity in South Africa have received virtually every useful Lightning spare part in order to keep their fleet flying. They offer supersonic passenger flights to those that can afford the luxury. Sadly, it appears that a Lightning will never again fly in the UK.

[centuryseries]

Well I had it saved on SkyHD but someone in the household thought Timmytime and Waybaloo would be a better usage of storage space !, so I cant tell any more, just that it was a program all about James May and what they had to do to get a flight in the U-2, let me get some sleep after nights and then dig around the web to see if I can see it anywhere, as I want a copy of it myself.

Best

Michael

Addendum, here you go http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/proginfo/tv/2009/wk25/unplaced.shtml#unplaced_moonseason3 not sure how to get a good DVD copy yet but it seems both, or at least the one you quoted, appear on you Tube in some guise.

Hey Michael, you can get the U2 stuff you mention at Amazon for £7 - its the dvd special feature. :ernae:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/James-May-Moon-DVD/dp/B002COIN9C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1250371618&sr=1-1

[centuryseries]

There are so many accounts here, and half of them have been disproven or challenged by yet more accounts. Who's to know what's true at this point? What's the secret to this aircraft's alleged incredible performance? What is so different about it? In terms of jet design, it looks rather primitive. Would someone who really knows please educate me as to it's real performance figures? They aren't secret anymore.

It may look primitive, but it's thrust to weight ratio was rather impressive hence the zoom climbs.

[michael davies]

Excellent, will get them shortly, BTW hows that project of yours coming along, the one thats topical to this thread ? ;), I nearly had a moment of weakness and started one myself when this thread appeared LOL, but I must remain strong and resist the urge to add yet another project to the great unfinished pile that already exists LOL.

Kindest

Michael


Hey Michael, you can get the U2 stuff you mention at Amazon for £7 - its the dvd special feature. :ernae:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/James-May-Moon-DVD/dp/B002COIN9C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1250371618&sr=1-1

[dhazelgrove]

ThunderCity in South Africa have received virtually every useful Lightning spare part in order to keep their fleet flying. They offer supersonic passenger flights to those that can afford the luxury. Sadly, it appears that a Lightning will never again fly in the UK.

The guys at Bruntingthorpe might choose to disagree with you there, but you're probably right.

The Lightning had a relatively small frontal area, it's true, but the trade-off was massive vertical slab sides. Take a look at the main undercarriage. Notice how thin the tyres are? Now - imagine trying to land in a 30-knot crosswind in the dark while it's raining..... :isadizzy:

RAF flying clothing is that colour for a reason.

Dave

[centuryseries]

Excellent, will get them shortly, BTW hows that project of yours coming along, the one thats topical to this thread ? ;), I nearly had a moment of weakness and started one myself when this thread appeared LOL, but I must remain strong and resist the urge to add yet another project to the great unfinished pile that already exists LOL.

Kindest

Michael


I know what you mean Michael, the pile exists on my PC too!! Still plodding along with the afore mentioned topical jet :icon_lol:

[kilo delta]

The guys at Bruntingthorpe might choose to disagree with you there, but you're probably right.

Dave

I think that the "red tape" barrier could prove more of a stumbling block for any future Lightning flights in UK airspace, rather than a lack of suitable airframes.....though it's worth remembering that a Victor took to the skies recently despite being officially grounded :monkies::icon_lol:.

[Matt Wynn]

Victor took to the skies recently despite being officially grounded :monkies::icon_lol:.

'Officially' she didn't but yeah a fast taxi turned into a gear clear situation :icon_lol:

[centuryseries]

I believe Bruntingthorpes Lightnngs are both at the fatigue limit for the wings, but don't quote me on that, it's been a while since I went there last.

[kilo delta]

n3HaeYVlBw8

:icon_lol:

[Matt Wynn]

woohoo! thats one way to earn yourself a stern talking to :jump: was a brief flight but boy it was good to see them wheels off the floor!

[kilo delta]

boy it was good to see them wheels off the floor!


And back down again on solid.......eh....grass?! :monkies::isadizzy::icon_lol:

[centuryseries]

Thats why the local council should stop putting speed humps everywhere lol funnily enough that was the first event at Bruntingthorpe I haven't been to for about 3 years!! and I missed it! Sods law! :icon_lol:

[peter12213]

that was great to me it look as if a gust or crosswind took it up still I hink if it was me in there I'd have seriously soiled myself!!!