Painting FSX planes

[PRB]

Ok, trying to paint an FSX plane, the Aerosoft DHC-6 Twin Otter, to be specific. I’ve painted FS9 planes before, so I know the basic steps, but this is my first foray into FSX painting, and the old steps aren’t working.
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Here’s what I’m doing:
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1. Adjust Photoshop files as desired.
2. Select All, copy-merged, flip image vertically, Save as 32-bit BMP file.
3. Open BMP with DXTBmp, import alpha channel, save as DDS 888-8 32 bit.
4. Save new DDS files to texture folder in FSX.
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So now I'm done right? But FSX crashes when I select my new plane from the list of planes. Right at the point that FSX would show the rotating plane that you have selected to fly, but before you select “Fly Now.”
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The FSX SDK does not appear to address painting, and the awesome CA Classics painting tutorial is still about FS9. I suspect I’m missing a crucial and probably simple step in the process…
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Thanks in advance!
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[PRB]

Hmm, I just found the "flip image" options in DXTBmp... I'm guessing I was supposed to do the "flipping" there, and not in Photoshop. Off to try...

[Brett_Henderson]

The flipping thing is relative. If you're working form an existing texture.. i.e. opened a DDS file with DXTBmp.. it's already "flipped". So if you intend to save to DDS with ImageTool (highly recomended).. you have to UN-flip it first.. because ImageTool flips as you save to DDS. If you are working with a raw, paint-kit.. chances are it is NOT already flipped.

Here's how I do it from an existing DDS texture:

Open with DXTBmp.. send to editor from there.. edit as desired.. save the 'norm'.. 'reload after edit' into DXTBmp. Send the alpha to the editor if need be.. save and reload from within DXTBmp.. Flip BOTH the image and alpha in DXTBmp, and save as an extended, DXT5 image (use a different name for the bmp). Open the DXT5 bmp with ImageTool, and save as a properly named DDS file.

Now of course a repaint is a long, sometimes several day (week) process.. so you won't simply 'send to editor' and 'reload'.. I'm just showing the logical steps that ensure probelm-free painting.

Now.. the flipping logic would not cause the crashing.. I suspect it's a file format thing.

Also.. make sure you use different file names for the DXT5 step. FSX is supposed to look for DDS files first, but I've seen problems when there are extended (XXXXX.bmp) files in there with XXXXX.dds files (same name).

[jankees]

I do the flipping in DXTbmp (if necessary), and save as DXT5 dds.
Apart from that, I can't see anything wrong.
Are you trying bare metal? otherwise the alpha can be just a white square.
Do you have the right size of the textures? it should be 1024 x 1024, (or 2048) anything else will crash FSX.

[PRB]

Well, using ImageTool to save the BMP to DDS seems to have done the trick.

I'm working from the paint kit provided by Aerosoft. So I saved the PSD files as 32 bit BMPs, then I was using DXTBmp (version 4.00.82) to save them to DDS format. There is a newer version out there, might it be needed for FSX? Have to check that out.

Anyhow, when I used ImageTool to save to DDS instead of DXTBmp, the plane loads without crashing FSX.

Thanks, all!

[Brett_Henderson]

Yeah.. I've had enough mixed results saving to DDS with DXTBmp, that I just don't try it any longer. ImageTool only, for FSX/DDS.

[CBris]

Use DDS DXT5 format - you'll find the memory saving considerable and you'll not see any difference.

[bushpilot]

Nvidia offers a free DDS plugin for Photoshop. Eliminates the need for DXTBMP completely. I always add the alpha channel to paintkit PSD, so when I'm doing the flattening and flipping, alpha channel remains untouched in the final DDS.


http://developer.nvidia.com/object/photoshop_dds_plugins.html

[Brett_Henderson]

Use DDS DXT5 format - you'll find the memory saving considerable and you'll not see any difference.

Why did MSFS got to DDS ?

I was taught that it's more efficient at rendering.. AND saves the "flip" step.

[CBris]

DXTbmp flips the images automatically in the latest version.

or...

Simply open any of the textures that come with the model and simply take note of the orientation. Of course, FSX also accepts other bitmaps but DDS DXT5 is the best choice with alphas.

[EgoR64]

:wavey:

I'm trying to do a quick Paint for my Air Services in Air Hauler(by The way Very addicting) - Two Kodiaks, 208, C130, DC-3, Lear-45 so far, LOL - Though I'm - 5-mil in the hole) :icon29:

I cannot afford Photoshop, so I'm using Free 2.6 Gimp, with DDS Plugin -
I have FS Repaint V2, I use it to change up the Colors a Little, nothing Fancy, and place the Decals on there which you can flip easily, I do my little paint job and pull it into Gimp to change the Hue or whatever, then Save it as DDS and pull it into the Image Tool, Save it as DX5 and invert the Alpha Channel, My problem is I do not know how to adjust the Alpha, tomuch Alpha looks Wierd -

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm30/EgoR64/alpha2.jpg

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm30/EgoR64/alpha4.jpg

[Brett_Henderson]

DXTbmp flips the images automatically in the latest version.

or...

Simply open any of the textures that come with the model and simply take note of the orientation. Of course, FSX also accepts other bitmaps but DDS DXT5 is the best choice with alphas.

I understand the flipping logic.. Normally oriented bitmaps need to be flipped on a software level, before rendering. When FSX sees a DDS file, it knows that it can skip that step. So a DXT5 file is at a disadvantage from the start.. not to mention that DDS compression/decompression is more efficient.

Why use DXT5 when a simple ImageTool conversion creates DDS ?

[Brett_Henderson]

Ego.. Gimp is fine.. but save as regular bitmap from there. There's nothing gained (prob something lost) compressing it at that point.

Use DXTBmp as a conduit for adding the alpha channel.. and save as DXT5.. THEN use Imagetool to convert the DXT5 into a DDS.

[EgoR64]

:ernae: Very Cool, Thanks Brett !! Will Give that A try !!

:ernae::icon29:

[CBris]

I understand the flipping logic.. Normally oriented bitmaps need to be flipped on a software level, before rendering. When FSX sees a DDS file, it knows that it can skip that step. So a DXT5 file is at a disadvantage from the start.. not to mention that DDS compression/decompression is more efficient.

Why use DXT5 when a simple ImageTool conversion creates DDS ?

If you open default FSX planes in DXTbmp and look at the top left hand corner you will see:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CBris/Helicopters/dxt5.jpg

DDS and DXT5. Get my drift?

[CBris]

Incidentally - GIMP is just as good as Photoshop. The only negative side of this open source program is the lack of 'official' support.

If I'd had GIMP 15 years ago I'd never have invested in Corel. GIMP is a damn good piece of software.

[Brett_Henderson]

DDS and DXT5. Get my drift?<!-- / message -->

No.. LOL :isadizzy: that just confuses me... :wiggle:

Are DDS and DXT5 one in the same ? the only difference being that one is flipped ? and FSX knows this because of the DDS extension ?

[Brett_Henderson]

Or does that mean that the DDS file was created FROM a DXT5 (which is what I've been saying is the best way to do it) ?

[bushpilot]

DXT is compression format, DDS is fileformat. DXT5 is the best quality compression. You can do uncompressed 32bit DDS files if you want. So if it reads DDS DXT5, it means it's DDS file which is compressed using DTX5 algorithm.

[spotlope]

DDS files can use a number of different compression schemes, including DXT1, DXT3, or DXT5. Just because it's DDS doesn't mean it's a particular compression. I think that's what Chris was trying to say.

[Brett_Henderson]

DXT is compression format, DDS is fileformat. DXT5 is the best quality compression. You can do uncompressed 32bit DDS files if you want.


That makes sense.. I just dug up the textures from my C177RG.

I used DXT3 for those... I opened one with ImageTool, and save it as a DDS..

Then opened THAT with DXTBmp, and saw that it was "DDS DXT3"..

OK then,, understanding that DXT5 is the best compression, and DDS is "only" a file format.. why even bother with DDS ?

[bushpilot]

Well beats me, probably DDS offers better frames over BMP. My knowledge on the issue end right there LOL.

Choices are:

32bit BMP

DXT compressed BMP

32bit DDS

DXT compressed DDS

[Brett_Henderson]

There's gotta be something more to the DDS step. As noted earlier.. the poster's problem was solved when he used ImageTool, instead of DXTBmp for the DDS conversion (and why I wouldn't do any compression/conversion at an editor via plug-in).

[Lionheart]

I could never get DXTBmp.exe to compile my DDS textures right. Then nVidia came out with the famous Photoshop tools that can create DDS and bump maps.

If you do not have Photoshop, then the newest version of FSX ImageTool can do what you need, and it has autoflip in it when compiling to DDS format.

On formats; You can use only 2 for planes; DXT5 and 888-8. If another works (for planes), I do not know about it. DXT3 doesnt work, (in DDS format).

Regular format.....DDS-DXT5
High Rez.............DDS-888-8 (32bit)

High Rez takes alot of memory, so some are making the files double size (2048 instead of 1024 in pixels, square size), and keeping them in DXT5 format/resolution. Does the same as 888-8 with 1024 size, but DXT5 is 'faster' for the computer.

Thus.....

Regular textures with no details should be 1024 size, DDS-DXT-5 format.

High detail texture sheets.... Double size at DDS-DXT-5 or normal size 1024 with DDS-888-8 32Bit high rez.

With Photoshop, you can assign DDS textures to always be opened by Photoshop, so you can go straight into a model folder in FSX and start opening them directly with Photoshop (if it has the nVidia tools in it). Really awesome. Just flip them over to work on them rightside up, then flip vertically again when done, save as DDS.

Now.... If (if) you have a super computer, and you love massive detail, you can go quad size (4096) and save as DXT-888-8 high rez DDS format, and you will have amazing detail. But no one paints in 4096 (that I know of.. Chris might though. He is really into high details). So if the work isnt in 4096, its not worth it. If it is though, its well worth it. But you need the PSD files (layered originals) to burn the DDS from. Bloating up a 2048 to 4096 will 'not' create new detail, so you're best off keeping it at its present detail level as you will not improve it.


Bill

[wilycoyote4]

Thanks, I've learned a lot here.:medals:

[Brett_Henderson]

Thanks, I've learned a lot here.:medals:


Me too :wavey:

But I', still thinking there is more to this DDS thing... Because DXT3 BMPs work fine in FSX.. just like DXT5 BMPs, but a DXT3 coverted to DDS does not work, while a DXT5 converted to DDS does work.

[bushpilot]

Just out of interest I googled a bit:

Compared to other image formats:

"DDS textures are sent straight to the video memory, stored as is (compressed), and uncompressed on the fly by the hardware at no cost (in fact, there is a gain because there is less memory access)"

So the difference should be in performance.... who knows.

[falcon409]

Me too, But I still thinking there is more to this DDS thing... Because DXT3 BMPs work fine in FSX.. just like DXT5 BMPs, but a DXT3 coverted to DDS does not work, while a DXT5 converted to DDS does work.
. . .and what part, if any, does DDS play in bump mapping? Thus far, the only thing I've learned is that some folks swear by this Imagetool thing but DXTbmp seems to do the same thing, so why do some parts in DXTbmp then switch to Imagetool to complete if DXTbmp can do everything anyway? Also, aside from the stupid "flip" that's required for FSX textures (can someone explain the genius in that?) I see nothing different between FSX and FS9 repainting. The bump mapping is apparently the big difference and why isn't that possible in FS9?

[Brett_Henderson]

FSX painting is a bizzare witch's brew .. LOL..

With FS9, it was just an image with an alpha channel. FSX is that, and a specular image that has its own alpha, and then the bump-map. The image, spec, and their alphas amount to FOUR variables; as well as a dozen or so settings and sliders.. as you're trying to get things like reflection, shine, chrome and varying transparencies.

Mapping all of this stuff is time consuming. Take a look at the FSX SDK.. and then apply that info while in Gmax.. it's mind-bending.. (too a simpleton like me)

As for swearing by ImageTool.. I've had countless problems using DXTBmp for the DDS save. Not sure why, it just isn'r dependable.

The image flipping (as explained to me), saves a step on the software side of it. Images as mapped in Gmax need to be flipped by FSX before rendering them. It has always been that way. Pre-flipped DDS images take that step out of it.. considering how many images are rendered for 3D display.. it makes sense that that would add FPS.

ANYway.. the whole texturing thing is so complex.. I need a very strict set of step-by-step... else I make a mess of things and can never sort out why my spinners are black, and my glass is invisible.. LOL.

1) All editing done in PSP.. 2) DxtBmp is used only as a place for adding the alphas.. flipping everything if required (i.e. editing an existing texture).. and is a reliable DXT5 compressor. 3) Convert the DXT5 to DDS with ImageTool.

[bushpilot]

ImageTool is very handy. I usually use it only to batch converts or creating bumpmaps.

[PRB]

Lots of good stuff here. Thanks to all for the help. Here’s the WIP. Executive Airlines was an outfit that operated in the Northeast many years ago, in the 1960s and 1970s. Maybe as late as the early 1980s. The very first Twin Otter I ever saw was one of these, flying in and out of Augusta, Maine (KAUG) on a daily basis. My brother and I would hide out by the end of the runway waiting for one to come in. It was the biggest thing to operate out of KAUG, after all!
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The nose is going to be a bit of a challenge. And I still haven’t found where Aerosoft hid the darned propeller spinners. I need to paint them blue! And some other odd things. There are various air scoops that pop out of the blue paint, but are not painted. From looking at the layers in Photo Shop, they should, at the least, be covered with blue paint. Not sure what’s going on there…

http://www.prbsystems.com/pics/ExecutiveAL.jpg

[falcon409]

FSX painting is a bizzare witch's brew .. LOL.......
Exactly why I'll never get into it. MSFS took a relatively simple process and made it unwieldy and overly complex. I admit that the bump mapping is interesting for the 10 seconds or so I spend looking at the exterior before I fly and the specular lighting and self shadowing is also interesting but a mere sidelight to the actual flying. I can't say I've ever spent much time admiring the rivets on a native FSX aircraft, or how the shine looks so darned realistic or how that cool shadow in the VC moves with the light. I guess it's personal preference obviously and progress is progress, so all this is necessary but for those who don't understand it, or don't care to learn the complicated task of repainting FSX aircraft and always enjoyed repainting before this, it's just another good reason for sticking with our favorite portovers and DXTbmp.

[bushpilot]

I'm for progress and stuff, although I usually just paint diffuse maps and let speculars and bumps alone.

But FSX is just so much more superior when it comes to eye candy:

Shots of the upcoming McPhat Studios Super80 UHDT paintpack, I think it's sort of a showcase of FSX capabilities:running:
http://www.mcphatstudios.net/images/stories/multimedia/S80UHDT/3.jpg

http://www.mcphatstudios.net/Terrence/s80uhdt/1580_86.jpg

[Brett_Henderson]

WoW !! :icon_eek: That's beautiful ! It might just be eye-candy, but it's all those little things that help fool our eyes and enhance the realism. Shimmering water, and clouds that cast shadows fall under the same catagory as subtle, 3D rivets and seams.. and true, specular shine. Plus there's the artwork aspect. The above shots show off ART.

Repainting for FSX isn't all that more difficult (with a good, layered paintkit).. it's just more time-consuming. It's easy enough to change a livery and just use existing specs and bumps .. although even the livery coloring (stripes logos etc) can be highlighted in the alpha, spec, and spec-alpha.. so you have to take care of that... else your United repaint will look like the paniters got lazy and just painted over it, 'cause old lettering/stripes will show through in a weird way.

Now, when you create a set of FSX textures from scratch, for a new model, it's quite an involved process. I'm still struggling with it.

[EgoR64]

:ernae: No Doubt, Awsome Paint Shots Bushpilot !! :icon29::icon29:

The Gimp does Alpha pretty good by itself -

Was able to just pull up the default C172 as a test in the Gimp latest Verion, with the DDS Plugin, and it has a pretty good Alpha conversion already loaded. Anyways, for those that be cheap like myself, Gimp is Free, so is Image Tool ->

# Launch Gimp
# Pull up a copy of the C172 Texture that you copied from an Existing Paint, I just grabed a copy of the Plane Jane White.
# Load the C172_T.dds in a Gimp Window
# The Alpha will be loaded, so we have to remove it before we start painting.
# Click on Layer -> Transparency -> Remove Alpha Channel
# Ready to Start your Painting using the Gimpy Tools,There be allot of good stuff so you will need figure what they are, I'm no Expert.
# My favorite tool is the Fuzy Select, Instant Paint Job with my Favorite Color.
# I'm pretty sure you can copy decals and Text onto your bird, as well as flip it and move it around.
# When Done, Add the Alpha Channel back in, Same Steps as above accept Add Alpha Channel.
# Now you can add your strength of alpha into the Layer by Clicking on Layer -> Tranparency -> Color to Alpha
# I made mine all 000000 which is the Darkest BLK.
# Anyways the Fuzy tool is real good for this because you only want to select metal parts for the Alpha, Want to be skipping the Tires and Rubber parts, engines, nacells, etc.
# Save it when your done, Pull it up in Image Tool Save as DXT5, Done !!

# Just an FYI on the Gimp -

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm30/EgoR64/alpha5.jpg

[Wozza]

Hi
I use a batch file to convert 32bit bmp masters to dds
Basically I build the texture the same as I did for fs9,when finished I run this batch file
imagetool -nobeep -nomip -dxt5 -dds -nodither *.bmp
you will need the above in a batch file and a copy of imagetool in the same folder,This will convert all bmp's in the folder to dxt5 dds

This batch file is fine for the main texture and the spec maps but dont use it on bumps :)

Spec maps are pretty straight forward,the color part handles the color of the highlights the alpha handles the strength.

this pic is of a mild blue in the main section of the texture and an all white alpha channel
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq218/au_wozza/BlueD_whiteA.jpg

this pic is the same blue but with a black alpha channel
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq218/au_wozza/blueD_blackA.jpg

you can mix the colors and the alpha channel to suit the color of the part and the saturation/strength via the alpha channel. So metal more white,painted wood darker gray or black,for flat surfaces black and black give the best results :)


Bump maps are the most time consuming
As far as I know there are only 2 plugins that work,the Nividia plugin for abode's paint
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/photoshop_dds_plugins.html
and a plugin for gimp, as Im a cheap sod I use gimp and the plugin
http://davenunez.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/using-the-gimp-to-create-bump-maps-for-fsx/
the above gimp tut has the links to gimp and the plugin.
In the above tut I only go as far as the flip part(I dont do that) after I click ok to make the normal map, I then save it as an unfliped bmp
then I run it through this batch file using imagetool
imagetool -nobeep -nomip -dxt5 -RedInAlpha -dds -nodither *.bmp
which fix's all the alpha channels and flips the texture.
The basics for bump maps is for flat surfaces use mid gray 128,128,128,full raised white 255,255,255 fully sunken black 0,0,0.any thing in between is a fraction of lift sink.
Here is a pic of a basic panel and rivet line
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq218/au_wozza/TEXAN_t_bump.jpg

anyway hope this helps,its not the be all but how I understand it ;)
cheers
Wozza

[bushpilot]

:ernae: No Doubt, Awsome Paint Shots Bushpilot !! :icon29::icon29:




And just to clear things up, those are made by the guys at McPhat Studios, and those guys are true artists.

No one makes worn and weathered paints like they do. Their upcoming UHDT paints have some things that I have never seen before in flightsim. For example if the diffuse map has part of peeled paint in it, the peeled part has its own specular and bump to replicate the baremetal peeking under the paint. The ding actually reflects light differently than the surrounding paint:applause:

Example: http://s80.flight1.net/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2182&KW=&PID=33163#33163