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Cowboy1968
June 20th, 2009, 05:35
I love the F4U Corsair. It is the next best thing to sliced bread, when it is in the air, but landing is a nightmare with this thing.

She bonces like a mother when she hits the deck to catch the wires. Does anyone have an idea how to position the bird to reduce bounce? I know in real life this is one of the things that kept the bird off the decks for awhile and i use the same landing method but she still bounces. do i need to raise the angle on th nose or continue to fly the ball straight in.

Rami
June 20th, 2009, 05:38
Hence the phrase "ensign eliminator."

Cowboy1968
June 20th, 2009, 06:18
Rami, you can be a smart butt, but very true with the facts.

TARPSBird
June 20th, 2009, 13:19
Cowboy,
One of the older guys in my model train club was a retired Naval Aviator and former F4U driver. He confirmed that all the nasty traits the Corsair exhibits in flight sim are pretty much the same as the real bird. :d Engine torque wanting to roll the plane on take-off, bouncing on landing, etc. etc. I've always thought the CFS2 LSO waves kinda high. Try coming in a little lower (even if the LSO gives you the low signal) and avoid chopping the power too early which will usually cause you to plop onto the deck and trigger that big bounce.

Blue Devil
June 20th, 2009, 18:13
First off...

From the -1A on, ...the tail-wheel was extended, ...the oleo's were softened and damped, ...and a stall strip was put on the starboard wing root to correct port wing drop at stall.

To correct bounce:

DB F4U/ aircraft.cfg

[contact_points]
//0 Class
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type
//14 Airspeed limit for retraction (KIAS)
//15 Airspeed that gear gets damage at (KIAS)
; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
point.0= 1, -18.00, 0.00, -3.40, 3200.0, 0, 0.50,180.0, 0.25, 2.5, 0.90, 1.0, 4.00, 0, 0, 360 //tail wheel (3/-3.15)(7/ 73.0)
point.1= 1, 2.00, -5.93, -7.65, 3200.0, 1, 1.35, 0.0, 0.54, 2.5, 0.77, 5.5, 4.50, 2, 0, 360 //left wheel (10/0.76(early), 0.77(late))
point.2= 1, 2.00, 5.93, -7.65, 3200.0, 2, 1.35, 0.0, 0.54, 2.5, 0.77, 5.5, 4.50, 3, 0, 360 //right wheel (10/0.76(early), 0.77(late))

As for the rest...

True Tales of Trial and Terror!
by Fred "Crash" Blechman (http://www2.xlibris.com/book_excerpt.asp?bookid=98)



CHAPTER 1

"F4U Corsair Carrier Qualification"
by Fred "Crash" Blechman

Finally, after 13 years of dreaming about becoming a Naval Aviator and earning my "Wings of Gold," this was my "final exam." Making six arrested carrier landings in an F4U-4 Corsair would earn me my gold wings and Ensign's commission. I had no idea I was about to crash.

It had been almost 21 arduous months since I had entered flight training. I had over 200 hours in SNJs, six arrested carrier landings in an SNJ, then almost 100 hours in Corsairs. Now, getting ready for Corsair carrier qualification, I had made 91 field carrier landing practice (FCLP) approaches and landings at Bronson Field near Pensacola. Just six carrier landings in a Corsair and I would "graduate."

So here I was, at about 9AM on August 10, 1950, flying F4U-4 Corsair #80893, together with five other students and our instructor, heading out to our carrier in the Gulf of Mexico off Pensacola. We rendezvoused with the light carrier U.S.S.Wright (CVL-49) as it churned at approximately 25 knots through the waters near Pensacola, Florida. The sea was calm with only occasional whitecaps from the gentle breeze. The azure sky was punctuated with random cotton balls. All was serene. Life was good. This was the day I'd been waiting for through so many episodes of "trial and terror."

Our flight received a "Charlie" landing clearance, formed a right echelon, and streaked upwind by the starboard side of the ship at about 800 feet as we peeled off to establish our landing intervals.

This was busy-time. Wheels, hook, flaps, power settings, trim, setting the beam position and interval while headed downwind, turning toward the carrier at the proper position, losing altitude, losing airspeed, spotting the landing signal officer (LSO), responding to LSO signals, adjusting bank and nose attitude... busy, busy time.

This was the real thing. There was no way we could accurately simulate landing on a moving carrier with those FCLP hops at Bronson Field-but they were the best means available to practice flying low and slow, follow the LSO's signals, and set the proper speed and attitude for a carrier approach in the "Hose Nose" Corsair.

My first four landings were normal, with no waveoffs, as we each in turn made our landings and takeoffs. After catching a wire, the barriers were dropped, and we made a deck-launched takeoff. But I was getting tired, and my light summer flight suit was drenched with sweat. I had no way of knowing that the next landing, #5, was going to be very different...

"Only two more landings to go," I thought as I prepared for my deck launch. With a ten-knot surface wind and the carrier's forward speed, the wind over the deck was approximately 35 knots. The takeoff should be easy. I checked various settings. Full flaps. Cowl flaps open. Hook up. Trim 6 degrees nose right, 1 degree nose up, 6 degrees right wing down. Tailwheel locked. Cockpit canopy open and locked. Shoulder straps and seat belt tight. Prop control full forward for maximum revolutions per minute (rpm). Mixture auto rich. Supercharger neutral. Wings locked. Controls move freely.

I watched the Launch Control Officer to my right give me the windup signal with his right arm as he pointed to my engine with his left arm. I advanced the throttle to 42 inches of manifold pressure and applied full toe brakes by pressing down the tops of the rudder pedals. At above 44 inches the wheels would start slipping on the deck, so full power could not yet be used. I held the joystick all the way back to keep the tail from lifting up and possibly digging the tips of the 13-foot four-bladed propeller into the wooden flight deck.

The 2100 horsepower Pratt and Whitney R-2800-18W(C) Double-Wasp 18-cylinder radial engine roared and the whole airplane shook with anticipation as I verified proper engine readings and signaled I was ready with a head nod. (I dared not let go of the stick for a right hand salute, or the tail could come up!) The Launch Control Officer threw his arm forward with two fingers extended, the signal for me to release the brakes and take off.

Surging forward, the Corsair picked up speed and rumbled down the deck. I added throttle to full power-approximately 54 inches of manifold pressure-and held a lot of right rudder to counter the torque of the huge engine and propeller sticking out 15 feet ahead of me. Releasing back stick pressure, the tail lifted and I could finally see where I was headed. I aimed for the right side of the deck, lifting off easily before the ship slipped behind, with nothing but rippling water beneath me. A slight right turn cleared my slipstream from the plane landing behind me, as I climbed ahead of the ship at 125 knots to the 800-foot pattern altitude. Since I was just going around to make another landing, I left the flaps and wheels down. At pattern altitude I reduced the throttle setting to 34 inches of manifold pressure, set the propeller to 2300 rpm, and reset the trim tabs for neutral stick pressure.

About a mile ahead of the ship I made a 180-degree left turn, descending to 200 feet for the downwind leg. I dropped my tailhook, unlocked my tailwheel, and set myself up approximately 3000 feet abeam of the ship, fast approaching on my port side as it steamed upwind.


Landing #5

The plane was flying smoothly with the canopy open and locked. The hot Gulf air and the roar of the engine blustered in from both sides of the windshield. Everything in the cockpit seemed A-okay, warm and comfortable as an old shoe as I watched the ship slip past my nose and toward my left wing.

As the straight deck of the light carrier Wright steamed upwind and its wake appeared ahead of my left wingtip, I banked sharply toward the ship's stern and began slowing the airplane down to an approach speed of 90 knots. Check flaps down, wheels down, hook down, tail wheel unlocked. I shoved the prop control forward for full rpm and reset the trim tabs to takeoff settings in case of a waveoff. I set my rate of descent to about 150 feet per minute, maintaining just enough throttle to hold the nose up approximately 15 degrees, hanging on the prop.

I checked my altitude by seeing where the clear, flat horizon crossed the ship's mast above the bridge, since that indicated exactly how high I was above the deck. At approximately the 90 degree position on the base leg I picked up the LSO with his colored paddles on the port fantail. Now the challenge was to keep the ship from getting ahead of me, since it was churning away from me at roughly 60 feet per second (including the surface wind that was trying to drag me even further behind). I watched the horizon crossing the bridge for altitude, and carefully controlled the power and nose attitude for holding around 90 knots-just a few knots above stalling!

I used a simple technique to properly intercept the ship. I put the left side of the Corsair's nose on the center of the deck at the aft end-and held it there! If I tried to judge my turn any other way I would invariably get sucked back behind the ship with a straightaway to catch up-but then I'd lose sight of the LSO under the Corsair's long nose.

There was no luxury of any significant straightaway in landing on those old straight-deck carriers when you were flying a long-nose Corsair in a nose-up attitude. You just couldn't see ahead of you-only off to the side. We essentially pyloned counter-clockwise around the LSO in order to keep him in sight!

As I got close in, I tried to keep the nose aimed toward the ship's centerline. This was not only affected by the ship's forward motion, but also by the wind over the deck. This wind was seldom straight down the deck, but approximately 15-degrees to port so the turbulence from the ship's stacks and bridge did not appear in the flight path of the landing planes. This made for a very tricky approach and last few seconds...

At this slow speed, just a few knots above stalling, it took a lot of right rudder, even though in a left turn. And you didn't dare add power quickly since the powerful engine turning that large prop could make the aircraft roll uncontrollably to the left-the dreaded "torque roll."

It took a lot of back stick, considerable power, and right rudder to hang in there. As I approached the ramp in a left turn, the LSO's paddles and my own perception was that I was drifting to the right of the deck centerline. Too much right rudder. I cross-controlled a bit and slipped to the left just as I approached the ramp, and got a "cut," the mandatory command to cut my power and land.

"Ah, landing number 5," I thought as I relaxed, dropped the nose, and pulled back to drop the tail so my hook would catch an early wire. But I relaxed too soon! Perhaps I was more tired than I realized, but my wings were not level, and I didn't pull back soon enough. The left main gear hit first, blowing the tire, and the plane bounced back in the air. At this point the tailhook caught the #3 wire and slammed the Corsair back on to the deck. On this second impact the left wheel strut broke and the right tire blew out!

I was thrown with more force than usual against my shoulder harness as the plane tilted to the left and settled on the deck. The carrier crash horn blew. Deck hands, some carrying fire extinguishers, came scampering up from the catwalks and surrounded the airplane. Controlled pandemonium reigned as I was quickly unbuckled and helped out of the cockpit, since fire after a crash was always a danger.

A Corsair zoomed overhead taking a "fouled deck" waveoff. It was Midshipman John A."Jack" Eckstein, my roommate and good friend through most of flight training. He told me later he was so shaken by my accident right in front of him as he was making his approach for his fifth landing that it took him several more passes to get in his last two landings. (He got his wings, stayed in the Navy, and retired as a Captain.)

I was not injured at all-except for my pride. But I was very concerned about being washed out of flight training, shattering a 13 year dream-and with only one landing to go! I had special reason to be concerned since I had my only previous accident just three weeks before when I torque-rolled a Corsair on a waveoff during my first field carrier landing practice flight at Bronson Field, and crumpled the left wing. No personal injury there, either, and a Student Pilot Disposition Board allowed me to continue training.


Disposition Board-Again!

Now I had to appear a second time before the Student Pilot Disposition Board to determine if I would get washed-out, or would get the chance to make that one remaining landing (the crash counted as #5) to get my wings. Was it my unblemished record prior to three weeks earlier, was it my sincerity and obvious strong desire to become a Naval Aviator, or was it the fact that North Korea had invaded South Korea a month or so before, and the Navy was calling up the Reserves and anticipated the need for more pilots? Whatever the reason, I was awarded some additional field carrier landing practice and another try for that last carrier landing!

Five days after the crash I climbed aboard the same Corsair, #80893, now with new tires and a new port landing gear strut, and made five field carrier practice landings at Bronson Field, and was considered qualified to make that last arrested landing needed to get my wings. Three days later, on August 18, I walked aboard the U.S.S. Wright in port at 6AM. The carrier steamed out into the Gulf of Mexico for that day's carrier qualifications.


Landing #6

The first flight of Corsairs appeared at 9AM and began their qualification landings. The first to complete his six landings was NavCad Vince "Rick" Ricciardi, whom I'd known since pre-flight. I congratulated him as he climbed down from his Corsair, #97168, and I clambered aboard. I strapped myself in with the help of a plane captain, checked all the power and control settings, and deck launched. One landing to go.

This was it! If I had too much trouble getting aboard, or crashed again, it was certain I would be washed out. The takeoff and downwind leg were normal, but as I made the approach I got more tense than usual as I considered the consequences of failing. This probably made me concentrate more than in previous landings, since I got a "Roger" flag signal from the LSO all the way into the cut, and caught the #3 wire. I did it! I had qualified to be a Naval Aviator!

The ceremony for commissioning as Ensign, and receiving the "Wings of Gold," was held at Pensacola on August 23, 1950. My mother flew in from New York to pin on my wings and bars. I've never done anything more difficult-or of which I'm more proud-than earning those gold wings! And after over thirty arrested carrier landings, I learned to drive a car...


SIDEBAR
Flashback-First Try

I was six years old in 1933 when I went up for my first $5 plane ride over New York City. It left me with an indelible impression of all those little houses, little cars, little roads, plowed fields, and tiny, tiny people-and how the whole world twisted and turned as the pilot maneuvered the airplane. I loved it! However, it wasn't until 1937, at age ten, at a Navy airshow with fat, gray-and-yellow Navy biplanes, that I decided I was going to be a Navy pilot!

After eight years of building model airplanes and devouring flying magazines, my chance came in July of 1945 when I joined the Navy V-5 program as an Apprentice Seaman for four semesters of college training in uniform before entering flight training. Finally, in August of 1946 I became an "AvCad," the term used at that time for Aviation Cadets. After eight flights in an N2S Stearman "Yellow Peril" in Dallas, Texas, I successfully soloed on September 16. Then it was on to pre-flight training at Ottumwa, Iowa.

But World War II was over, downsizing was in place, and we were given the option to sign up as Midshipmen for four more years under the Holloway Plan, or go back to civilian life and complete our college education under the G.I.Bill. I got out.


Second Try

However, I maintained contact with John Higson, who had stayed in the program, and heard about the "Ab Initio" (From the Beginning) program my former classmates were beginning at Cabaniss Field in Corpus Christi. They were starting out in SNJs as the primary trainer instead of the Stearman-and I would have been in the first class to do this! This drove me nuts. I haunted the Navy recruiting office trying to get back into Navy flight training. It took two years, but in November of 1948 I got back into flight training and headed to Pensacola for pre-flight. This time we were called "NavCads," a new designation that officially began on June 22, 1948 with a new Navy flight training program.

I completed pre-flight at Pensacola, then basic flight training in SNJs at Pensacola (with six arrested carrier landings on the U.S.S. Cabot (CVL-28) on 23 March, 1950), advanced flight training in F4U-4 Corsairs at Cabannis Field in Corpus Christi, and then back to Pensacola for Corsair carrier qualification. Oh, by the way, being a city-boy, I had never learned to drive a car, but I was flying Corsairs!

bobhegf
June 21st, 2009, 01:59
I only fly 1% aircraft but this is my second landing in a 1% F4U in almost a year.The 1st landing was about the same.

Blue Devil
June 21st, 2009, 07:20
I only fly 1% aircraft...

The 1% F4U does not take into account the degradation in flap lift due to the installation of the "stall strip".

CL_df was reduced to (0.940). (from "America's hundred-thousand...")

In the .air file:
1101 Primary Aerodynamics
*Lift-Flaps = 0.94

Spreadsheet:
"Fields" tad
row 76
"Override data"(green box) 0.940


Enjoy.

P.S. I use modified 1% files on the DB Corsair...

Cowboy1968
June 21st, 2009, 08:33
Cowboy,
One of the older guys in my model train club was a retired Naval Aviator and former F4U driver. He confirmed that all the nasty traits the Corsair exhibits in flight sim are pretty much the same as the real bird. :d Engine torque wanting to roll the plane on take-off, bouncing on landing, etc. etc. I've always thought the CFS2 LSO waves kinda high. Try coming in a little lower (even if the LSO gives you the low signal) and avoid chopping the power too early which will usually cause you to plop onto the deck and trigger that big bounce.

Thanks for the advice on the approach. It in conjunction with what i have been reading in mg Grandpa's flight books. has helped a lot. As he call's it come in at a shallow approach angle. Use a lot of flap and then just say a prayer.......lol

but I am now sticking the carrier landings in the Corsair.............

Thanks everyone

Cowboy1968
June 21st, 2009, 09:56
Another one like this I will have to trade in my Wings of Gold for wings of lead a.k.a US Army Air Force wings....or maybe even I would have to join the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm.......lol

His "prop strike" happened when the Bearcat hit the wires and bounced and then after she stopped she actually nosed over. I think i probably hit the wires to fast, but I didn't get a wave off from the LSO.

I think it is neat that the physics of the sim actually allow for similar wrecks to real life. you talk about an interesting landing.

BTW the parking breaks were not set when she nosed over. I set them while I was nose down on the deck, I don't even know why I set them.

Tango_Romeo
June 22nd, 2009, 15:40
There are lots of aircraft that have quirks like that.

The A-20 can't be flown onto the runway like most tricycle gear aircraft because of her short main gear struts and long nose gear....you can easily put the nose gear down first with the result of a nasty bounce. You gotta keep her pretty nose-high to set her down on the main gear. She sits back on her haunches on the ground.

I fly a Globe-Temco Swift regularly. She is a floater that makes the high-wing Cessnas look like rocks. And she will not tolerate a three-point landing, not matter how gently you try to make it. She'll put a 50' vertical bounce on you lickty split.

Eoraptor1
June 24th, 2009, 11:32
The 1% F4U does not take into account the degradation in flap lift due to the installation of the "stall strip".

CL_df was reduced to (0.940). (from "America's hundred-thousand...")

In the .air file:
1101 Primary Aerodynamics
*Lift-Flaps = 0.94

Spreadsheet:
"Fields" tad
row 76
"Override data"(green box) 0.940


Enjoy.

P.S. I use modified 1% files on the DB Corsair...


Blue Devil,

Have you done any more work on the Corsair airfile you uploaded a while back, or is that the definitive version?

JAMES

Blue Devil
June 24th, 2009, 22:01
Blue Devil,

Have you done any more work on the Corsair airfile you uploaded a while back, or is that the definitive version?

JAMES

Hey E, ...

Always tinkerin' with her, ...so I'm not sure...

I did some "AI only" .air's, ...and re-worked the contact points...

Also set the stall to "5" on the spreadsheet and added an armor damage box to cover the top and of the main fuel tank...


PM me your e-ddress, ...and I'll zip ya a package when I get a chance.

Oglivie
June 25th, 2009, 08:35
There are lots of aircraft that have quirks like that.

The A-20 can't be flown onto the runway like most tricycle gear aircraft because of her short main gear struts and long nose gear....you can easily put the nose gear down first with the result of a nasty bounce. You gotta keep her pretty nose-high to set her down on the main gear. She sits back on her haunches on the ground.

I fly a Globe-Temco Swift regularly. She is a floater that makes the high-wing Cessnas look like rocks. And she will not tolerate a three-point landing, not matter how gently you try to make it. She'll put a 50' vertical bounce on you lickty split.

I've always admired the Swift after seeing one back in 1978. All my flying time though has been in the high-wing Cessna 150, 152 and 172 aircraft. I do prefer the high-wing for VFR pilotage navigation and sight seeing. However, I would like to get some flying experience in low-wing and tail-dragger aircraft also. I read the elevator trim control was in an awkward position on the Swift; being located between and a bit aft of the seats on the ceiling of the cabin. Reminds of the flap position indicator on the 150 which was located on the front left windscreen post just forward of the door. It couldn't be read from the left seat unless you tilted your head forward and turn to the left. The flap indicator position (and also the flap control) was much more improved on the 152s and 172s, being positioned in the lower center of the instrument panel.

Cheers,
O

Tango_Romeo
June 25th, 2009, 12:25
I read the elevator trim control was in an awkward position on the Swift; being located between and a bit aft of the seats on the ceiling of the cabin.

...on the Swift is powered, not a manual 'wheel', so you're dealing with a rocker switch. Many folks have relocated the switch to the control panel. :kilroy:

The Swift does not have a gear indicator either. The one I fly has heavy wire 'indicators' attached to each main gear, so that when the gear is down, the wires are visible ahead of the leading edge in a vertical position. (See second photo...leading edge of wing directly in front of the gas cap. :isadizzy:

Another oddity it that there is only one gas cap, and it's on the left wing. By lifting up on the left wing, the left main gear can be locked into a detent several inches higher than the right. This causes fuel to run from the left tank to the right during fueling. Works like a champ. :applause:

She is a sweet, sweet airplane. This one is a 1948 standard model restored, not one of the Super Swifts. :kilroy:

Tango_Romeo
June 25th, 2009, 15:17
...built P-51/F-51 Mustangs at the Dallas/Ft Worth plant until they lost the contract. The Swift is what they built on the same line for the civilian market. The plane was ahead of her time, but could not be built affordably today because of all the tapered metalwork. The national Swift museum is down the road here in Tennessee, and there are many Swifts still in the air.

There were 1499 Swifts built, and the map below shows how many are still flying.

Globe-Temco later became part of LTV (Ling-Temco-Vought).

Tango_Romeo
June 25th, 2009, 18:35
I would like to get some flying experience in low-wing and tail-dragger aircraft also.

...wing tail-drager is not that different from the old tri-gear, particularly the Swift, as her main gear is so short that she has a very shallow nose-up attitude when sitting on her tailwheel. Except for those aircraft with very long legs that limit your forward visibility, I find no problems adapting to the tail-drager system. You just set them down on their main gear and let the tail settle on her own.:engel016:

Visibility(downward) is not all that limited either, and it's no problem to drop a wing when you want a better look. :ernae:

Oglivie
June 26th, 2009, 12:57
TR,

Thanks for the info and photos!!


Cheers,
O

Tango_Romeo
June 26th, 2009, 18:00
These last shots will give you an idea of the side/downward visibility in the air and the forward visibility on the ground. (Note the slotted leading edges of the wing that keep the stall speed down.) :ernae:

Bill Kestell
June 26th, 2009, 18:57
:ernae:SWEEEEEET!

Eoraptor1
June 28th, 2009, 08:45
Hey E, ...

Always tinkerin' with her, ...so I'm not sure...

I did some "AI only" .air's, ...and re-worked the contact points...

Also set the stall to "5" on the spreadsheet and added an armor damage box to cover the top and of the main fuel tank...


PM me your e-ddress, ...and I'll zip ya a package when I get a chance.

Blue Devil,

Many many thanks. I'd love that airfile package. Check your messages. BTW: my e-mail address is open to all SOH members through my member profile.

JAMES