CT-114 Swowbird's Tutors Grounded ! ! !

[VaporZ]

For Us Citizens :
Would ou accept the Thunderbirds to still fly on F-100 Super Sabres in 2009 ?
Would ou accept the Blue Angles to still fly on F-4 Phantoms in 2009 ?

For British Citizens
Would ou accept the Red Arrows to still fly on Folland Gnats in 2009 ?

For French Citizens
Would ou accept the Patrouille De France to still fly on Fouga Magisters in 2009 ?

For Italian Citizens
Would ou accept the Freece Tricolori to still fly on Fiat G-91 in 2009 ?

Here in Canada this is what we do with the Tutor manufactured in the mid sixties and ..........this could be prolonged until 2020 ?!?!&?/"!&?%$/

Please read the following two articles from today's Toronto Star
I simply do not beleive it !
:kilroy:
VaporZ
Ashamed Canadian Citizen

OTTAWA — Canada's acrobatic flying team, the Snowbirds, has been grounded due to a technical problem with the ejection seat system.

The air force says it's putting all 25 of its Tutor jets on "operational pause" after a problem was found prior to a practice flight at the Bagotville International Air Show in Bagotville, Que. on Friday.

The Department of National Defence says in a news release (http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/view-news-afficher-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=3002) that the problem is with the Ballistic Disconnect Link Assembly and is unrelated to false-lock issues previously experienced with the Tutor lap belt.

The link assembly is designed to come apart automatically during an ejection.

The exact cause of the problem is unknown at this time.

In May 2007, Capt. Shawn McCaughey died after the seatbelt in his Tutor came unbuckled during a roll, causing him to fall out of his seat and lose control of the jet during an air show practice in Montana.

Star exclusive: The Star reported today that Ottawa is considering a proposal to keep the Snowbirds fleet running with jury-rigged equipment that has been salvaged in a repair shop.

OTTAWA – The famed Snowbirds aerial fleet will be a shell of its former self if the government okays a proposal to extend the life of the aging jets by a decade, documents obtained by the Toronto Star reveal.

The plan to keep the team's Tutor jets in the air means Canada's finest military pilots will be flying planes that are jury-rigged with equipment that has been salvaged in a repair shop or was never intended for use in the Tutor, a model last produced more than 40 years ago.

"It has been determined that the aircraft structure and engines are capable of being extended to the year 2020," says a defence department analysis of the CT-114 Tutors.

"As far as electronics and avionics are concerned, there are various systems that will become unsupportable every year from 2010 through to 2020," says the document, which was the basis for a recommendation that Defence Minister Peter MacKay approve extending the life of the planes through the next decade.

Part of the rationale is that the military could save money by avoiding the immediate purchase of a replacement fleet.

The briefing note for MacKay, dated October 2008, warns of "technical risks" if the extension to 2020 is authorized.

A second option, which "mitigates the technical risks," is to purchase a new fleet of jets in 2015.

After the Star first reported on the impending decision, a defence department spokesperson said that the risks are "to the program, not to the pilots."

The documents do cast doubt on an official request by the Snowbirds to air force leadership for repairs and upgrades, particularly to the planes' navigation and communications systems.

"What is perceived is that the upgrades requested would be nice to have (rather than) required. The same goes with the weather warning system.

The Snowbirds mentioned that it would greatly enhance safety of flight, but does not having one actually put the pilots at risk?" the analysis asks.

That position seems to have softened more recently.
The air force plans to strip instruments that measure engine speed from decommissioned Hercules transport planes for use in the Tutor when its dials become "non-repairable" in 2010, according to the documents.

Other parts, including the Tutor's vertical speed indicator and a system that measures operational loads – described as "mission critical" – are no longer produced, and the air force has few replacements.

The total cost to keep the Tutor jets in the air until 2020 is estimated by the military at $116 million.

"The Tutor is a great aircraft," said Lt.-Col. Darryl Shyiak, the Snowbirds' lead pilot in 1997-98. "The best analogy I can give you is to a beautiful 1967 Corvette that's been meticulously maintained, that looks good and functions well as long as it's in good shape mechanically."

The military expects a decision on the future of the Snowbirds "before the summer," according to internal defence department emails.

There is a possibility that the fleet, a fan favourite at air shows across North America, will become the victim of federal budget cuts. An order to cut the air force's budget by 5 per cent prompted reports that the Snowbirds could be grounded.

Shyiak says it's better to have old, overhauled planes in the sky than to scrap the Snowbirds team because the air force can't afford up to $30 million for each replacement.

MacKay has said that while the Snowbirds are dear to Canadians, they are low on the list of priority purchases the military must make.

[Railrunner130]

1. Be glad the Snowbirds are still in business. These days with the international economies being slumped, militaries are being slashed like never before. Canada is lucky to have them. As is true with any country that has a military demonstration team.

2. Young kids don't know or care how young or old an airplane is. They just care that it looks cool. And that's what inspires kids to join the military.

3. All aircraft (most anyway) are subject to periodical grounding for safety reasons. As long is the proper time and care are taken to address the issue so that nobody gets hurt, that's what matters.

[stiz]

4. Its from the press, who always write in a manor which they know will cause disruption even if it means twisting the truth to fit their needs :kilroy:

[VaporZ]

I fully agree with you gentlemen but ......

you must admit that the best move would have been to include within the NFTC program contracted to the private industry a few years ago, a replacement package for the Snowbirds included in the initial project.

We would then probably have now, ...... in 2009, :

a six ship Bae Hawk Mk.100 Snowbirds Team
or a mixed package of
six Harvards II's and two Bae Hawk Mk.100

located also at Moose Jaw like the NFTC, owned by the private industry and manned by Canadian Forces.
:engel016:
VaporZ

[Jen]

For Us Citizens :
Would ou accept the Thunderbirds to still fly on F-100 Super Sabres in 2009 ?
Would ou accept the Blue Angles to still fly on F-4 Phantoms in 2009 ?


If they were still flying Super Sabre`s and Phantom`s, I would order tickets for Amerika immediately :applause:



For British Citizens
Would ou accept the Red Arrows to still fly on Folland Gnats in 2009 ?


That Would be absolutely lovely:engel016:




For Italian Citizens
Would ou accept the Freece Tricolori to still fly on Fiat G-91 in 2009 ?


I think I would save some money for a journey to Italy too:icon_lol:


Jen

[Silver Fox]

The CF is holding out for enough funds to replace the Tutor with Hawks.... The anticipated budget is in the range of $500 million. There is an alternative proposal to use those funds to buy AT-6B Texan II's... 50 of them to equip The Snowbirds as well as COIN Sqdns at Cold Lake and Bagotville.

I've got an amusing side profile of a tactical-grey AT-6B with a sharkmouth... and a '1' on the fin and the Snowbird Sqdn lozenge patch. It also has very politically incorrect 'camel' mission markings under the canopy rail. :)

[Railrunner130]

The T-6 is quite an impressive little plane if flown by the right person/people. I saw Patty Wagstaff do a demo of it when it first came out. It'll really woe the crowds.

[thedude247]

I still don't know what to think about the Snowbirds and there equipment, I mean no disrespect her, but the Snowbird deserved to get something alittle newer a long time ago. They do a damn fine job with what they have, but these circumstances should have been addressed after the last two or three Pilots died.

Shoot me for saying this, but these pilots and there ground crews deserve much better, and so do there families.:medals:

[redriver6]

Would ou accept the Blue Angles to still fly on F-4 Phantoms in 2009 ?

being someone who has seen the Blue Angels fly in F-4's let me take this opportunity to say this about that....

HELL YEAH!!!

[Silver Fox]

Considering that the Golden Centennaires flew the Tutor for the 1967 show season... time for the Tutor to go!

On a happier note... This year the CF-18 show bird will be accompanied by a Sabre (Golden Hawk scheme) and a Tutor (Golden Centennaires scheme). Fans of the old lightning-bolt paint scheme will like this year's Hornet. :) Sabre and Tutor won't be at every show... Worth seeing if they are going to be at a show near you.

[TARPSBird]

I won't comment on the Canadian Forces' budget woes but I kinda would like to see the T-Birds flying F-100's again. :icon_lol: And if we're also going retro on the Blues I'll pass on the Phantoms and go clear back to the F11F Tigers.

[tigisfat]

No, guys!! We're looking at it wrong. This just means that the RCAF should fly hornets now!! This is a good thing.

[Naismith]

Hawks are surely the way to go, though the tax-paying man in the street probably would not agree. Some folks understand that the Snowbirds are much more than just a display team, I fear that many don't though and are unwilling to pay. Our lame-assed liberal pinko government will no doubt let us down.

[tigisfat]

Though this may get taken the wrong way, I mean it in the best of possible ways:

I would have much less of a sense of pride on our northern neighbors if it wasn't for the snowbirds. I saw them when I was little, and they were just about all I heard and saw about Canada. They were cool and good, and something to be proud of. Now that I'm an adult, (and I know much more about Canada, have worked with them and been there countless times) the Snowbirds are still a great symbol of Canadian pride.

[Naismith]

Though this may get taken the wrong way, I mean it in the best of possible ways:

I would have much less of a sense of pride on our northern neighbors if it wasn't for the snowbirds. I saw them when I was little, and they were just about all I heard and saw about Canada. They were cool and good, and something to be proud of. Now that I'm an adult, (and I know much more about Canada, have worked with them and been there countless times) the Snowbirds are still a great symbol of Canadian pride.

That just about sums it up!
Re your earlier post, have you seen how old our Hornets are? Don't even mention the Sea Kings. Dismal. On the other hand of course, we look like a big country on the map but in reality Canada, population-wise is actually quite a small place with only 10% that of of the USA.

[srgalahad]

We've always had a battle over NO team, a new expensive aircraft or "keep 'em sputtering along".
Sure, I'm biased in favour of something new, but there are those who have the vision of a worm in mud - and they tend to make loud noises.

As always, some plan will come together in spite of the cynical press. In the meantime, I'd love the idea of going back in time...

mVo9InROAXY&hl=en&fs=1&

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/showphoto.php?photo=11498&size=big&cat=601

Rob

[gigabyte]

It is unfortunately a sad fact that successive Canadian governments have underfunded our military for decades I am amazed that the brave men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces can perform their duty at all - it is a testement to their skill, character, and sheer determination that they are an effective force. The bulk of the helo's are 20 years older than the pilots that fly them and should have been scrapped years ago (1970's era Sea Kings), our "new" subs are decommissioned British diesels (one suffered an electricial fire that killed a crewman on the trip to deliver it) and the one that really gets my goat is our SAR Techs who until recently were issued parachutes that were US surplus from WW2 (most of the SAR Techs left those on the ground and purchased their own personal gear so they could do their jobs safely).

I am always amazed at the dedication and accomplishments of these brave soles that risk life and limb every time they deploy I just wish our government would put some real funding into the forces and give them the equipment they really deserve to do the job we all depend on them to do.

Just my personal opinion of course, but when I think of the heros in our society the top of my list are the men and women of the armed forces - they choose to risk it all for the citizens of Canada even if their leaders do not give them the respect they deserve by providing them with the best equipment for the job.

OK off the soap box now, and hats off to all the Military folks on this forum, we owe you so much more than most will admit.

[WND]

WELL, I'm sure I'll probably touch a few nerves with my comments but this will always be an ongoing topic of conversation!!!!

I for one would not be happy if the Snowbirds where grounded (probably for political reason's).. I've been very fortunate thru out my flying and airshow careers to have worked along side the Blues, the T-birds, the Snowbirds and the Italians. I HAVE NOT seen any other countries...

Out of the four teams that I've seen, it has been my opinion for many years now that the Snowbirds and the Italian's put on a much better show - which is why you don't see them too much in the states!!! (probably for political reason's).. I just much prefer watching flying ability over speed and noise!!! But again, that's my opinion!!!

We could go on and on with this subject but the bottom line is: If the Snowbirds got close enough to where I live, I would make it a priority to go see them - I would hate to see them grounded - they do a great job and I think they represent Canada very well..

Bill

[Naismith]

And it has to be said, they are the second best aerobatic team in the world. Shocking! No not at all, the best are of course the Red Arrows without a doubt. I have seen most every team from the Western Hemisphere in my time, the only exception being the Blue Angels and I hope to catch them soon. Of course it is only my opinion, the Snowbirds are great but the Red Arrows are exceptional. All this I mean in entertainment value. The T-Birds are fabulous of course but fall down in my opinion entertainment wise because for extended periods in their displays they are out of site forming up etc.. Not so much the case with the Snowbirds, and the Arrows, well there is barely a moment in their displays when something is not happening. I've seen the Arrows 4 times and they never disappoint, Snowbirds 5 times and T-Birds twice now.
Now if only the Angels could be enticed northward.......

[tigisfat]

And it has to be said, they are the second best aerobatic team in the world. Shocking! No not at all, the best are of course the Red Arrows without a doubt. I have seen most every team from the Western Hemisphere in my time, the only exception being the Blue Angels and I hope to catch them soon. Of course it is only my opinion, the Snowbirds are great but the Red Arrows are exceptional. All this I mean in entertainment value. The T-Birds are fabulous of course but fall down in my opinion entertainment wise because for extended periods in their displays they are out of site forming up etc.. Not so much the case with the Snowbirds, and the Arrows, well there is barely a moment in their displays when something is not happening. I've seen the Arrows 4 times and they never disappoint, Snowbirds 5 times and T-Birds twice now.
Now if only the Angels could be enticed northward.......

I understand that you must be a man of your country, and that the red arrows are beautiful and good, but your first blue angels airshow will change the way you look at teams forever. They are no joke, and your jaw will drop when you see such things as the diamond 360. They are rediculously close, not just close like everyone else. Combine this with the fury of really furious precision maneuvers by the solos, and you have something only they can deliver. I know first-hand that the thunderbirds are WAY to regulated to do anything cool anymore.

[stiz]

i still think the arrows and snowbirds are better to watch though, yes the blue angels and T birds are good flyer (or just plane insane :icon_lol:) but the display is a bit boring, weather or not the sound of the jets in real life makes it better or not i dunno but for pure video watching enternainment i'd rather watch the arrows or snowbirds anyday. Also the personality of the blues puts me off a bit, i'm sure their nice guys but the odd deflation of the head wouldnt hurt :monkies:

Guess it all depends on what floats your boat, after all, some people like marmite!! :kilroy: :icon_lol:

[Kiwikat]

I've seen both the snowbirds and blue angels. I gotta say I enjoyed the snowbirds' show more. The blue angels are great but the hornets are just too fast to enjoy. Those tutors take more than 2 seconds to fly across the airport. :icon_lol: By the time you see the blue angels do a formation change or a roll or something, they've already gone out of sight.

Sloooowwww down so we can enjoy the show :running::stop:

[Quixoticish]

I understand that you must be a man of your country, and that the red arrows are beautiful and good, but your first blue angels airshow will change the way you look at teams forever. They are no joke, and your jaw will drop when you see such things as the diamond 360. They are rediculously close, not just close like everyone else. Combine this with the fury of really furious precision maneuvers by the solos, and you have something only they can deliver. I know first-hand that the thunderbirds are WAY to regulated to do anything cool anymore.

I recall one airshow at the Finningley many years ago now (it may have been 1991 but I can't recall exactly) and the Blue Angels were present along with the Russian Knights. The consensus on the day seemed to be that the Arrows were the most enjoyable, followed by the Knights, followed by the Blue Angels.

As I said this was many years ago so I'm sure things will have changed since then, but the US air displays seem to embody a very different philosophy to those in Europe, they are chalk and cheese in many respects.

I have to admit though my one major criticism of both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds is their commentary, I find it to be rather cringeworthy. I think it was a Thunderbirds display where everyone walked out to the jets in formation, that really wasn't my cup of tea.

[tigisfat]

I have to admit though my one major criticism of both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds is their commentary, I find it to be rather cringeworthy. I think it was a Thunderbirds display where everyone walked out to the jets in formation, that really wasn't my cup of tea.

The T-bords and blues are VERY different. The thunderbirds displays are VERY boring, and they take the marching thing WAY over the top. I can't handle the T-birds for that reason, and I won't even go to their airshows.

When I attended RIAT 2008 last year with a demo team, we were actually briefed by the RIAT engineers that the T-birds were the example of how not to behave. You'd have 9 jet demo teams from around the world, and the T-birds think they are the stars of the show just like they were performing at some small town somewhere.

Let us not compare the two....

[Naismith]

They are all great in their own way of course. What skill, pride and dedication they all display. And as for the marching criticisms, lets not forget they are all serving military units, it's what they do.