JSF to be usurp in Canada ( Yes !!!! ) [Archive]

View Full Version : JSF to be usurp in Canada ( Yes !!!! )

VaporZ

May 30th, 2009, 02:29

The next Fighter Competition for Canada is open.
The overcost JSF program will have real competitors

Eurofighter bid include an unconditional transfer to Canada
of the entire technology package including source codes.
An offer JSF will never be able to challenge.

I have even find a name for the Eurofighter bid : "MapleFighter"

Please read this
:jump::applause::jump:
VaporZ

Boeing, Eurofighter bid to usurp F-35 for Canadian fighter deal
By Stephen Trimble (stephen.trimble@flightglobal.com)
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Boeing (http://www.boeing.com/) and Eurofighter (http://www.eurofighter.com/) have launched a public challenge to Lockheed Martin's (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/) widely presumed control of a next-generation fighter contract in Canada.

Both challengers unveiled the outlines of a new push to respectively market the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/hornet.html) and Typhoon (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/eurofighter.html) to Ottawa as replacements for the Canadian air force's Boeing (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/boeing.html) CF-18 (F/A-18A/B) Hornets by the end of the next decade.

As a member of the nine-nation Joint Strike Fighter (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/lockheed%20martin%20f-35.html) programme since 2002,

Lockheed executives have described Canada as a likely buyer for up to 80 F-35s, although the Department of National Defence has released a revised requirement for 65 jets.

Canada has invested $150 million to participate in the F-35's system development and demonstration phase, and has signed for a follow-on production and sustainment phase.

But despite this track record and a $9 billion stake over the life of the programme for Canadian industry, Lockheed acknowledges that the DND has not committed to buy F-35s, says Keith Knotts, business development director for Canada and the UK. Ottawa plans to begin receiving new fighters in 2017.

Lockheed believes that Canadian industry will pressure DND officials to make a decision soon to buy the JSF, as many suppliers are facing imminent decisions on making major capital investments for new tooling to support their role in the programme, Knotts says.

Boeing's sales pitch to Ottawa is also focused on economic gains. Buying new Super Hornets could generate $8 billion in economic benefit for Canadian industry over 25 years, and provide access to offset work across the whole of Boeing and the Hornet Industry Team's portfolio of contract work, says Glenn Erutti, its director of new international Super Hornet business development.

Similarly, the four-nation Eurofighter consortium has touted "job creation and sustainment", as well as the ability to transfer "full sovereignty" over the Typhoon's operational technology, says Ian Malin, head of Typhoon exports business development for BAE Systems. BAE is leading Eurofighter's marketing campaign in Canada.

DND officials have not publicly defined how the F-35's challengers will be considered in their decision-making.

Boeing officials say they expect Ottawa to decide within a year on whether to recommend a selected fighter or invite competitive bids for its next-generation fighter requirement.

A final decision is needed by no later than 2014 to meet Canada's 2017 in-service deadline.

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thedude247

May 30th, 2009, 04:01

stiz

May 30th, 2009, 07:45

this could get intresting :engel016:

Panther_99FS

May 30th, 2009, 07:59

I wonder if the Rafale will be thrown into the mix :ques:

Toastmaker

May 30th, 2009, 08:53

. . .Canada has invested $150 million to participate in the F-35's system development and demonstration phase, and has signed for a follow-on production and sustainment phase.

This is the biggest clue that leads me to predict an F-35 fleet in Canada !

:kilroy:

VaporZ

May 30th, 2009, 09:09

A Question for Toastmaster

What will you do on a "far far north" intercept Norad mission
with a shut off F-35 engine that do not want to relight ?

For this reason, everybody within our operational combat
squadrons would like to have a Typhoon, a SuperBug or
a Rafale.

Twin engine configuration is just like condoms :

Its preferable to always have it nearby even when not needed
that
not having it when needed.
:engel016:
VaporZ

Naismith

May 30th, 2009, 11:31

Don't see that we need such an ugly a/c here in the great white north. Foremost they need to replace the Tutors with Hawks.

Toastmaker

May 30th, 2009, 17:04

Prowler1111

May 30th, 2009, 17:13

Rafale? not a chance, extremely expensive for what you get, don´t get me wrong, but you got your options down to 0 weapons wise when you acquire french military hardware, it has to be french made or get into a compatibility program, so expensive, that the whole deal becomes ludicrous..
Prowler

VaporZ

May 31st, 2009, 00:33

The investment of 150 Millions is nothing like many other totally wrong decisions our Government made in the past.

This "JSF Club" fee is close to the current unit price of only ONE F-35 that is actually set at 122 Millions $ with forecast putting the final unite price tag at 188 Millions $ !!!

For this reason the Canadian F-35 needed fleet is no longer for 80 units but for 65 units.

65 F-35 at 122 millions each gave us a procurement budget totalling 7,930 Millions $.

With this same budget it is possible to buy 100 F-18E/F SuperBugs
at 78 $ Millions each and they are twin engines.
:wavey:
VaporZ

CG_1976

May 31st, 2009, 00:53

Considering Canada's northern WX patterens and harsh northern climates. Id take the F-18E/F SuperBugs. The eurofighter is unproven yet as I know in harsh cold climates like Canadas or the USA, let alone Siberia of the Russian Federation. My thinkin is using the Northwest Territories/Yukon as a example the eurofighter will choke in -50f+ with windchill.

thedude247

May 31st, 2009, 04:30

I'm in aggrement with Trans_1007, the superhornet would be the best and most logical choice for our next fighter, the fact that it's a dual engine aircraft is an advantage over the F-35. And the Rafale probably wouldn't be a good chance either, it's most likely a very capable fighter, but the fact that you would have to make compatible is also an expensive extra.

The Eurofighter I don't really know that much about, I just have a feeling that it won't do well in cold sub-zero climates.:icon_lol:

Panther_99FS

May 31st, 2009, 07:24

VaporZ,
Actually, now that the F-22 is cancelled and orders will be increased for the F-35, the projected F-35 price will be much lower than 188mill/unit....

thedude247

May 31st, 2009, 08:09

VaporZ,
Actually, now that the F-22 is cancelled and orders will be increased for the F-35, the projected F-35 price will be much lower than 188mill/unit....

Good point, I never thought about that. How much lower is the question.:kilroy:

Toastmaker

May 31st, 2009, 08:19

Superbug, eh? Ok, great airplane - then I assume VTOL is of no value to Canadian Forces ??

stiz

May 31st, 2009, 08:24

wouldnt the f18s range be an issue though in canada? or has that been increased a bit since last time i looked (was about 300 miles then)

Panther_99FS

May 31st, 2009, 08:39

It's too bad about single engines - I would've loved to see the J-39 Gripen in the mix too!

thedude247

May 31st, 2009, 09:38

Superbug, eh? Ok, great airplane - then I assume VTOL is of no value to Canadian Forces ??

All we have to do get where were going, doesn't matter how I suppose. The VTOL capability that some aircraft is a fine asset, don' get me wrong, I just don't see the advantage it would give us. Espectially where we have to patrol our Arctic region more and more frequently now a days.

viking3

May 31st, 2009, 09:49

I believe we Canucks were supposed to buy just the A model(no VTOL or carrier requirements). :wiggle:
Personally I like the Eurofighter from what I see of it, however the Superbug probably makes the most sense. Pilots, maintainers, and industry could transition with minimum fuss.

Regards, Rob :ernae:

Donnybrooke

May 31st, 2009, 09:57

Maybe you should just buy Predators? :icon_lol:

http://statismwatch.ca/2008/12/11/military-tech-on-the-home-front-predator-drones-to-begin-surveillance-of-canada-us-border/

Toastmaker

May 31st, 2009, 10:14

Of course, then again, you could probably get some Mig's and Sukhoi's much cheaper. . .

Sorry - just kidding -

CG_1976

May 31st, 2009, 11:01

It's too bad about single engines - I would've loved to see the J-39 Gripen in the mix too!

This one I could see challenge for carrying a maple leaf. The Gripen is a proven harsh winter WX fighter and one of the best.

deathfromafar

May 31st, 2009, 12:23

There's another side to this. Cost wise if things keep going in the current fiscal direction, you could see neither one be adopted. Meaning a life extension for the CF-188's with full structural rebuilds, new radar & fire control systems and re-engine options. The other option being as Trans 1007 said, Gripen. The Super Gripen with the GE/Volvo F414 engine could do the trick at a far lower cost that the F-35 or Typhoon.

Silver Fox

May 31st, 2009, 14:01

SuperBug, carrying the insititutional memory of pilots/maintainers and the dedicated Hornet support equipment that can be carried over must now be assumed to have the lead over the F-35. F-35 offers Canada nothing that it can't get from other types, and carries the single engine stigma as well as expense and being ugly.

2nd up... a dark horse. Boeing must quietly be whispering "Launch Customer" into some ears in Ottawa. F-15S, solving the Arctic range problem, twin-engined, frontal stealth to match the F-35 and carrying the legacy F-15 undefeated combat record.

Eurofighter was designed for Europe... and Canada no longer operates there. CAF leadership will be looking to integration with NORAD much more than NATO. Boeing products serve that need better.

Myself, I would hope for the F-15S... but figure that the SuperBug will get the nod. So much infrastructure and tooling already exists that can support the CF-188E...

Considering that the Hornets are just finishing a mid-life update featuring structural rebuilds, new radars (APG-73 replacing APG-65), new avionics and new computers... there is time on the clocks to make a decision.

thedude247

May 31st, 2009, 18:54

There an idea, lets get some F-15 Strike Eagles, that'll do the job. They can't be that expensive these days, nor is there a shortage of parts and supplies.:jump:

Silver Fox

May 31st, 2009, 20:35

F-15S is not really a Strike Eagle, more like a Super Eagle. Canada would qualify for the full stealth package including the RAM materials and the canter tails. The only thing unsuitable that I can think of is the air-air refueling probe... I'm not sure how a probe would be fitted.

tigisfat

May 31st, 2009, 20:59

It must be said that aircraft such as the Typhoon and Superhornet are proven and operational aircraft that will surely meet Canada's needs and then some. The sky's the limit with these fighters, especially since they have two seat versions. I haven't heard or seen anything regarding a two seat JSF, but I could be wrong. There won't be a JSF like the Growler, and flexibility could be the key to what a country with a small military like Canada wants.

Just look at the awesome SU-30MKIs that India has. They were relatively cheap, they can do almost anything you could ask a fighter to do, they carry a huge load of diverse weapons, and they can take on anything out there today.

tigisfat

May 31st, 2009, 21:20

What will you do on a "far far north" intercept Norad mission
with a shut off F-35 engine that do not want to relight ?

For this reason, everybody within our operational combat
squadrons would like to have a Typhoon, a SuperBug or
a Rafale.

Yes, but that really is a matter of opinion only. Don't forget that the costs of operating a twin are MUCH higher than those of a single. Please also consider that a multi-engined aircraft with a single engine failure will immediately egress the battlespace, rendering it as useful in the fight as a single with the same problem.

In the world of military accident/incident trending, there is no clear distinction between single and multi engined fighter aircraft.

Panther_99FS

June 1st, 2009, 07:03

thedude247

June 1st, 2009, 11:34

http://www.boeing.com/ids/news/2009/q1/090317a_nr.html :engel016:

Now there's an idea, didn't even know that boeing even released this version of the F-15.:jump:

Me Likey.:ernae:

Silver Fox

June 1st, 2009, 11:51

Thanks for the link P! Can't wait until I can cut-and-paste on the iPod. :)

Matt Wynn

June 2nd, 2009, 04:59

Silver Fox

June 2nd, 2009, 16:31

Just so it's clear... Canada's CF-18 fleet has already been modernized. http://www.casr.ca/id-cf18-3-1.htm

The update effectively turned A/B models into C/D's.

Cerberus

June 2nd, 2009, 17:53

I hope that DND holds off on buying some of these bad boys for even a little while, wiht the way our economy is right know, I don't think it's a smart move.

Don't get me wrong, we need an up-to-date aircraft for our air force, but now isn't really the best time for large purchases like this.:kilroy:

Poor world economy eventually equals serious resource conflicts. Canada hopefully does not have a lot to worry about, but defense is a wise choice in these times.

Silver Fox

June 3rd, 2009, 00:48

ok just to let you know, Typhoon HAS been cold weather tested at Vidsel AB, close in the artic circle in its development phase, temperatures constantly between -25*C and -31*C, and performed 45 proof of performance tests both on the ground & in flight, and was completely fault free, (first time every time)... but as you say I can see Canada headed for either a CF-188 mid-life update, revamp the old parts or get the superbug.... although an 'Icephoon' would look great in Canadian colours:icon_lol:

Given those operating temperatures... the Typhoon is cleared to operate in Spring and Fall, what would Canada do in Winter? Seriously... I've seen temperatures around -45*C** in Cold Lake, AB (Canada's Fightertown). Inuvik, Cold Lake's Forward Operating Location, sees winter temperatures that can exceed -50C. LOL! At -25C the flight line crews in Cold Lake largely forgo cold weather gear in favour of the more mobile midweight stuff. I'm sure it could be made to work in cold temps... but the US tests for operability in Alaska, they understand cold in the continental weather pattern.

tigisfat

June 3rd, 2009, 09:53

Poor world economy eventually equals serious resource conflicts. Canada hopefully does not have a lot to worry about, but defense is a wise choice in these times.

Canada would be even smarter to avoid conflict. There is no shortage of food and mineral resources there; and America would never let Canada get attacked.