Is there a GURU in the house...?

[fleurdelys]

Hi to all,

I'm baffled at the way RAF markings are applied on both sides of the fuselage... :kilroy:

We're talking "Spitfires" here...:jump:

I used to think that AB+C as applied on the left side (as most profiles show us) is a close image of the right side and should therefore be AB+C also on the right side...:sleep:

Well, it is most of the time, I guess...
but not always as I've found the occasional delinquent which shows something such as C+AB...:kilroy:

How come, how can we know for sure and is there a good reference to help us unravell such mystery...? :icon_lol:

Any help would certainly be welcome.

Cheers,

Fleurdelys

[planejunky]

Yes some codes are carried closest to the cockpit, with the individual letter towards the rear. As you rightly say there seemed to be a hap-hazzard way of coding, it almost seems it was down to individual squadrons as to how they were coded.

Here's some pictures of Spitfire Mk.1 AR213 "JZ-E.

[Tako_Kichi]

The following site has a huge amount of information and I frequently refer to it when researching all things RAF....

http://rafweb.org/Index.htm

To answer your question have a look at this page....

http://rafweb.org/sqn_codes3.htm

...particularly Item 7.

They can either be in the form 'XX0X' or 'X0XX' where 'XX' represents letters for the Squadron ID and 'X' represents the letter code for the specific aircraft within the Squadron, the '0' is where the roundel is located. When applied to the aircraft the general method was that if the Squadron code (i.e. 'XX') was closest to the nose on the port side then it should also be closest to the nose on the starboard side so if the port side had 'AB0C' when read from left to right the starboard side would have 'C0AB' when read from left to right.

The decision as to whether the Squadron code should be nearer the nose or tail seems to have been left to the discretion of the individual Squadrons themselves which in turn leads to confusion for modellers/repainters as there is no true way of knowing which is correct without going into a lot of research for that particular Squadron/aircraft. One factor that could influence the decision is the type of aircraft the markings are going on as the roundel has a specified location and thus there may not be enough room between the roundel and the tailplane for a two letter code and therefore the Squadron ID would have to be placed closest to the nose.

Hope that helps.

[fleurdelys]

Hi and thanks Planejunky,

This is really the case of a pic being worth a thousand words...:icon_lol:

And BTW, your pics are truly good.

Now, if I want to paint Captain François de Labouchère's RAF Spit Mk.Vb from 340 Squadron "Ile de France" with serial markings on the left of GW-L (BL803), based at Hornchurch in September of 1942, do I flip a coin to choose how the right side looked or do I use the same as the left until told otherwise by some historian who knows better...:kilroy:

Ah... the old dilemna...
To be or not to be...:kilroy:

[fleurdelys]

To answer your question have a look at this page....

http://rafweb.org/sqn_codes3.htm (http://rafweb.org/sqn_codes3.htm)

...particularly Item 7.

Oops...:icon_lol:

Going there right now...:running:

Thanks :applause:

[Tako_Kichi]

Now, if I want to paint Captain François de Labouchère's RAF Spit Mk.Vb from 340 Squadron "Ile de France" with serial markings on the left of GW-L (BL803), based at Hornchurch in September of 1942, do I flip a coin to choose how the right side looked or do I use the same as the left until told otherwise by some historian who knows better...
If you go to this page.....

http://rafweb.org/SqnMark331-360.htm

...and scroll down to 340 Sqn you will see they opted for the Sqn ID closest to the nose so the letters would read 'GW0L' on the port side and 'L0GW' on the starboard side. However, you specified a Mk.Vb in September '42 and according to the above page the aircraft you want to paint may not have carried any letter ID at all! It looks like 340 Sqn adopted the ID markings in October '42 with the arrival of the Spit Mk. IXb.

[fleurdelys]

Bonjour Tako Kichi,

Your link is very good but still no joy unless I become a member for a fee and then, they could probably help me or they might not, if they don't find the exact reference, I guess...:kilroy:

It does explain in detail the reasons why there could be both ways to write it down, though ... Development of Squadron Markings and Codes 1939 - 1945
Thanks again for your help and the link which I will keep for other interesting aspects, such as what planes were assigned to a particular squadron and from what date on, etc.

Cheers,

Fleurdelys

[Tako_Kichi]

Check my other post and link re. the markings for 340 Sqn. For the time period and Spit model you speak of it may not have carried ID markings at all.

[fleurdelys]

If you go to this page.....

http://rafweb.org/SqnMark331-360.htm

...and scroll down to 340 Sqn you will see they opted for the Sqn ID closest to the nose so the letters would read 'GW0L' on the port side and 'L0GW' on the starboard side.

Bonjour Larry,

I did notice that page as I mentioned in my previous reply but what it shows is a left side profile with the squadron markings followed by the roundel and then the aircraft code letter as with most other profiles ...:kilroy:

But I fail to see why the right side should read L followed by the roundel and GW instead of GW + L...

If that were the case, then most of the repaints done as an example for Paul Rebuffat's Spitfires would be wrong as the ones that I checked earlier all showed the same setup which is Squadron code letters followed by roundel and the aircraft letter on both side...

Or have I missed something...:icon_eek:

Jean-Robert

[Tako_Kichi]

Bonjour Jean-Robert

It is not clearly stated on the 'rafweb' site but as I stated earlier....


'When applied to the aircraft the general method was that if the Squadron code (i.e. 'XX') was closest to the nose on the port side then it should also be closest to the nose on the starboard side so if the port side had 'AB0C' when read from left to right the starboard side would have 'C0AB' when read from left to right.'

I found the above information during my research a while ago but I have just searched my bookmarks and now cannot find it again unless it is hiding really well on an obscure site somewhere. I may even had read it on a scale modelling newsgroup I belong to and thus would not have an online reference for it.

Regarding the other paints out there it may well be the case that many of them are wrong simply because the painters were not aware of the methodology of the marking system and the fact that the Sqn ID should be either closer to the nose on both sides or closer to the tail on both sides depending on the aircraft and specific Sqn choices.

[fleurdelys]

If you go to this page.....

http://rafweb.org/SqnMark331-360.htm

...and scroll down to 340 Sqn you will see they opted for the Sqn ID closest to the nose so the letters would read 'GW0L' on the port side and 'L0GW' on the starboard side. However, you specified a Mk.Vb in September '42 and according to the above page the aircraft you want to paint may not have carried any letter ID at all! It looks like 340 Sqn adopted the ID markings in October '42 with the arrival of the Spit Mk. IXb.

I'm baffled but no longer so sure about my original profile source which gave me the Spit Mk.Vb and GWoL markings to start with...:kilroy:
But, if they didn't use markings before Oct.'42, what did they use as there must have been some type of markings to differentiate those planes from other squadrons and also to specify what aircraft was flying in the wing, no ?

Fleurdelys

[fleurdelys]

OK,

I'll try to upload a couple of pics about this airplane...

Prior to having had this conversation, I had already opted for your idea of keeping the squadron markings forward of the roundel on the right side...:icon_lol: because of lack of space aft of the roundel.
As good a reason as any other, I guess...:isadizzy:

I just wanted to verify my SWAG and now I'm probably out of a plane, a squadron and what not because this plane didn't exist in Sept. 1942...:kilroy:

Sigh... :icon29:

Jean-Robert

[Tako_Kichi]

I admit it is sometimes very confusing but outlines the need to check details from more than one source to be absolutely sure you have facts and not possible theories.

Regarding 340 Sqn the side view of the Spit Mk.Vb shown on the 'rafweb' site shows no ID markings at all but on a different page of the same website it states.....

Squadron Codes used: -

YK Allocated Apr - Sep 1939
GW Nov 1941 - Nov 1945

..... so there is confusion even within a single website! :banghead:

Now, I am not sure if the above means that 340 Sqn did not exist between Sept. 1939 and Nov. 1941 or that it existed but used aircraft that carried no ID letters during that period. However, if we take the above to be true that means that for your period (i.e. Sept. 1942) then the aircraft should have carried the GW ID which means that you would be OK to paint it as such and the side view shown elsewhere on the 'rafweb' site is incorrect and should be showing ID letters.

As to the ID letters themselves they were not compulsory items so it is more than possible that some aircraft existed without any Sqn ID at all as the ID was not applied until the aircraft had been delivered to the squadrons in question and it was up to the individual squadrons as to whether the ID was applied or not.

Confused yet?...I am! :isadizzy:

[Tako_Kichi]

I'll try to upload a couple of pics about this airplane...
It looks very good Jean-Robert....but.... and I don't want to sound pedantic and as if I am a 'rivet counter' here....I feel your serial numbers are too far forward on each side.

If you look at this page.....

http://rafweb.org/Markings/sqn_co2.gif

....it specifies a distance of 6" (150mm) between the LE of the tailplane and the closest edge of the serial number and yours look a lot further away than that.

[planejunky]

Hi and thanks Planejunky,

This is really the case of a pic being worth a thousand words...:icon_lol:

And BTW, your pics are truly good.



Thanks but I cannot lie, these two were taken by my wife at the Flying Legends Airshow at Duxford last year! She has a Canon SLR, so now takes most of the shots used on the UK Warbirds website, allowing me to concentrate on the writing side of things. Very occasionally she does let me have a go too! :wiggle:

[fleurdelys]

It looks very good Jean-Robert....but.... and I don't want to sound pedantic and as if I am a 'rivet counter' here....I feel your serial numbers are too far forward on each side.

If you look at this page.....

http://rafweb.org/Markings/sqn_co2.gif

....it specifies a distance of 6" (150mm) between the LE of the tailplane and the closest edge of the serial number and yours look a lot further away than that.

Hi Larry,

You're quite right about the serial numbers but I was working from a profile which was in effect wrong about their location to start with...
see pic...

Now, I'll have a reference to check this type of info beforehand...:kilroy:

I knew I should have stopped there... :icon_lol:
see screenshot...

Best regards,

Jean-Robert

[Motormouse]

YK Allocated Apr - Sep 1939
GW Nov 1941 - Nov 1945

..... so there is confusion even within a single website! :banghead:

Now, I am not sure if the above means that 340 Sqn did not exist between Sept. 1939 and Nov. 1941 or that it existed but used aircraft that carried no ID letters during that period

Didn't exist as such, -----> http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/h340.html

(re)formed at Turnhouse, Scotland 7th November 1941

all official sqn histories ------> http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/sqn_hist.html

ttfn

Pete

[fleurdelys]

Didn't exist as such, -----> http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/h340.html

(re)formed at Turnhouse, Scotland 7th November 1941

all official sqn histories ------> http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/sqn_hist.html

ttfn

Pete

Thanks for the link Pete, it only confirms that we need more than one reliable historical source to reach our objective, I've added the link to my favorites... :ernae:

Cheers,

Jean-Robert

[Matt Wynn]

9 times out of 10, its 2 letters [Roundel] 1 letter, the 2 letters denote Squadron ID and the single letter is usually airframe ID...
http://www.constable.ca/caah/SpitfireFormation.jpg
'SN' in this case being the ID for (formerly 611sqn) Canadian...

nice link i use for spits....
SPIT CODES (http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/squadron.htm)

[Tako_Kichi]

nice link i use for spits....
SPIT CODES (http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/squadron.htm)
WOW! Thanks for that link Smoothie...I have bookmarked it for future reference.

I do a lot of research when contemplating a WWII repaint as I like to get them as accurate as possible but I really wish there was a site out there that cross-referenced aircraft type to RAF squadron a bit like the Spit one in your link (believe me I have searched for such a site many times). I use the 'rafweb' site to check on all sorts of data but when it comes to looking at the side views to get painting ideas you are at a loss if you do not know which squadrons used which aircraft. I just spent ages on there looking for a RAF Mustang Mk.IV scheme and the only way to do it is by paging through the dozens of equipment pages in the hope that you spot one. If you knew which squadrons used them you can look them up instantly.

If anyone knows of such an online reference I would be eternally grateful. Ideally it would list aircraft types and to which squadrons they were allocated and if possible when they were in use.