O/T BoB2 terrain work

[Pat Pattle]

The BDG guys over at the Shockwave forums have done some incredible work upgrading the BoB2 landscape scenery. Looking at this and after buying the Photographic scenery for fs9 I've had it on my mind that cfs3 may benefit from high res photo textures. I'm not knocking Johnnos wonderful work, I just like the look of this.

Anyone any thoughts?

Pat :)

FS9 photographic
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Pat_Pattle/ck1.jpg

BoB2
http://www.a2asimulations.com/bob_dev/PaulPics/hshot_221.jpg

[Donnybrooke]

Pat,

Re BOB2, it's a nice improvement, going from 1024x1024 textures to 2048X2048. Not sure if there will be a frame rate hit on this.

I worked on the landscape for BOB1 way back when (before Shockwave bought the rights), so I understand a bit about how it works. I must admit that I'm a bit more impressed by CFS3 terrain than BOB's (for what it does). The autogen features of CFS3 terrain are far better than what BOB2 has currently. But BOB terrain was always made to be seen from 10,000 feet. :)

That's not to say that the BOB2 terrain is bad. It isn't. The terrain data is very good, having been taken from digital terrain data. The process of placing textures is rather ingenious, as each texture is allied to a certain color that is "painted" onto the base map causing the corresponding texture to appear. Roads, railroads, water-ways, forests and hedges are capable of being drawn onto the map in their corresponding color.

Some of its problems are that objects must be placed by hand, and this is a long and tedious process. Autogen is being experimented with for the forest raises (a big improvement over the blocky ones of the original Rowan game), so look for improvement there. Painting the texture maps is a chore. This needs some automation and some improved tools for working with terrain textures implemented. Also, some enterprising coder needs to increase the pallette for the textures from the current 264 to 1024 (264 colors, 264 textures). 1024 textures would allow such a variety of landscapes that it would allow regional variations for each part of England and France.

Since I have not worked on CFS3 terrain, I'm curious as to what effect a higher resolution texture would have on frame rates? Would this be something people would actually desire?

PS> Of course, the high-rez photos for FS9 would be unsuitable for WWII. :)

[ndicki]

Interesting, but I don't think much of the colour-balance in the first screenie; it's too blue. I've noticed that's a common problem with terrain tiles, in MS and other sims. Not sure why.

[Pat Pattle]

Don, I've also worked on the BoB2 terrain, I corrected some of the airfield layouts a couple of years ago and changed some of the tiles used around them. It was very tedious! The object adding method is good for putting things generally into the landscape and it's great being able to do it 'on the fly' but not so good for trying to locate items precisely. There's a bit more control in this area in cfs3 when it's done via Gmax. :)


Since I have not worked on CFS3 terrain, I'm curious as to what effect a higher resolution texture would have on frame rates? Would this be something people would actually desire?

We are already using 2048sq textures in the main (the ones Johnno changed) so fps shouldn't be affected any more than it already is.



PS> Of course, the high-rez photos for FS9 would be unsuitable for WWII.


Absolutely. The BoB2 ones were originally made by some enterprising chap whose name escapes me, Bader has since improved on them. They were taken from Google if memory serves me so a lot of modern clutter must have been removed. I've tried to find useable bits of the UK but it's pretty difficult. Southern Ireland looks promising as a source though.



Interesting, but I don't think much of the colour-balance in the first screenie; it's too blue. I've noticed that's a common problem with terrain tiles, in MS and other sims. Not sure why.


It is a bit odd isn't it Nigel, not so noticeable when in-game but something is certainlly amiss. This is the Just Flight product, a bit long in the tooth now, there is a newer version for fsx by a different company which looks better (and 4 times the price what I paid! :))

I have played around with painting more hedgerows onto Johhnos tiles as the fields are a little on the large side. I think it improves the look a little, would be best done by someone with better painting skills than I.

before
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Pat_Pattle/ETOBlenheimoverScampton1939.jpg
after
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Pat_Pattle/jbscenery_tweak.jpg

[ndicki]

Your hedgerows do made the fields look a bit square, though. The last thing British fields are is square - major mistake made by most American sim developers, too.

[Donnybrooke]

Pat,

I really like the hedgerow look. You did a good job. As Ndicki says, the fields are a bit square, but they would be great for northern France (actually, the fields were/are more rectangular). Needs an "artiste" or a team. :)

[Pat Pattle]

Yep, quite agree, the fields are too square but this was just a trial to see how it would look when modded and this was the quickest way! :)

Out of interest, a while ago Pelican 72 gave me permission to use his BoB2 texture set in cfs3 so I'm going to trial those too.



Needs an "artiste" or a team.


Lol, volunteers step once pace forward!! :)

[Squiffy]

Nice work Pat,

One style point for me is the consistency of the image rendering between models and terrain. The danger of photo tiles is introducing a stark contrast to color palette and saturation. That is visible in your first shot. The hedgerow touches you did were an improvement. If we're worried about size and shape, we can handle that. WM solved the terrain scale issue back before OFF was developed. A good find. If we can do a fractional adjustment it could be an easy fix. Some tiles are square . some will allow for nice odd shapes. May be worth a look? I've been lamenting over DPC s world. Would love to have proper shipping lanes and all that. Been away a while and need to catch up.

Good job on the rows.

[Pat Pattle]

If we can do a fractional adjustment it could be an easy fix. Some tiles are square . some will allow for nice odd shapes.


Now that would be useful! Any ideas? Your input would be much appreciated. :)

Another toying around shot. This is some of the BoB2 Peliland textures substituted into cfs3. It's interesting how the game uses these and merges them into each other. In BoB2 because of the way the textures are placed you get distinct edges (which I'm not saying is not a bad thing).

I shall pursue this further, it has potential I think.
Btw if this goes anywhere it wouldn't necessarily be an ETO inclusion it's too subjective to force it on users IMO.

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Pat_Pattle/cfs3-Pelilandscenery.jpg

[ndicki]

Those look pretty impressive... if still a bit too blue! But the overall impression is nice.

It's a pity though that CFS3 draws roads, etc over the tiles, and so they don't follow the normal lie of the land.

[Squiffy]

Yes that looks better here at work. Now I remember "Not Enough Red" worked for Rowan and I always thought he called himself that because there was not enough red in the color palatte. The earth certainly looked redder and more fertile, if not soggy and cold this winter when I was there. The alfalfa or whatever it was still shocks me with it's December greeness! ;)

Look at the terrain scale entries in the landclasses file. That was what controlled scale. In Johnno's tiles, some are square grid, others random "topography" collages. I thin CFS3 still lays them down in the rings and masks them. Not toally sure how that all works out.

[Wildfowler]

[ The alfalfa or whatever it was still shocks me with it's December greeness! ;)

Remember that farming techniques today will give you a green appearance to many fields in December. In the 1940's they would have been brown.

Also fields in the 1940's were very much square or rectangular. It was the advent of heavy farming machinary in the 1950 - 1960's that grubber up the hedges!

Even today there are many hedged in fields. I have fox hunted in East Anglia and the Midlands in England and can vouch that trappy small hedged fields do certainly still exist in abundance!!

[O-1Driver]

Talking about scenery, has anyone ever found the Black Forest or seen any of the large forests in England. We also need haystacks, farms, villages, fishing villages etc. these are the kind of things that help immersion.

Other than the ACC team there has never been enough attention paid to scenery in CFS 3.

O-1

[Donnybrooke]

Pat,

I note that Pelican's terrain textures don't blur in the distance as much as the CFS3 terrain. It looks better. Do the CFS3 terrain textures use a lower resolution set for distance? I'm guessing that since there are no lower rez textures from Pelican that the game uses the high rez ones.

Just curious. :)

[Squiffy]

Trappy hedges? Haystacks? Smashing!

:ernae:

[Pat Pattle]

I note that Pelican's terrain textures don't blur in the distance as much as the CFS3 terrain. It looks better. Do the CFS3 terrain textures use a lower resolution set for distance? I'm guessing that since there are no lower rez textures from Pelican that the game uses the high rez ones


There are 4 or 5 'grass' textures which I replaced with field types which may explain it, I think they are used in the distance but not sure for certain. I've read the SDK a couple of times but it all looks so complicated! :(

"Not Enough Red" - Nothing to do with grapes then? ;)

[blacksheep-ghost03]

your hedgerows do made the fields look a bit square, though. The last thing british fields are is square - major mistake made by most american sim developers, too.

Looks good to me. To me its more of a Flight sim than a ground Sim

[ndicki]

I wonder about spring textures for the Netherlands... !! Just google image search for "tulip fields!"

[Squiffy]

ndicki,

That would be great! We're finally into spring here on the harbor and the blossoms are a welcome sight. Tulips would be grand.