UKMIL CH-47 is out...but....

[Lateral-G]

UKMIL's new CH-47 is out over at Simviation.

Looks good but there seem to be some missing textures...mainly the rotor blades, rotor hubs and lower surfaces of the fuse. Some textures alos seem to be missing some of the detail textures like for the antenns wires, posts, GPS antenna, etc.

Otherwise it seems to fly pretty well. Be careful if you retract the gear (it doesn't retract) but acts as if it does (you get the forcefeedback thump), especially when you land and forgot to extend it...:redf:

-G-

[kilo delta]

Afaik the CH-47 requires Acceleration be installed in order to have the full textures? Thanks for the HU. :)

[Roger]

Getting it now. Hoping it'll work in Dx10.1 preview mode. I have Acceleration so hopefully all the textures will be there.

[doublecool]

Does this have a VC

[kilo delta]

Does this have a VC

Yep.......... http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=103&page=2&highlight=chinook :)

[Roger]

Damn fine model for freeware:ernae:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/rogera/ukmilcin-1.jpg

[doublecool]

COOL :applause:

[deimos256]

nice, but whats the VC like?

[Lateral-G]

Damn fine model for freeware:ernae:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/rogera/ukmilcin-1.jpg

Notice the black rotor hubs and other items that seem to be missing textures?

Is this correct?

And yes, I am running FSX/Accel/SP2.

Load some other textures and you'll see the aft cargo door is black and so is the underside.

I agree though, it is a fine piece of freeware.


-G-

[UKMIL]

the rotor hubs are meant to be black, so no missing textures. in other skins, mainly the Mk1 Camo the underside and Ramp are meant to be black, as this is how they were, so again, no missing textures. as mentioned, it needs SP2

[Tweek]

the rotor hubs are meant to be black, so no missing textures. in other skins, mainly the Mk1 Camo the underside and Ramp are meant to be black, as this is how they were, so again, no missing textures. as mentioned, it needs SP2

By 'no missing textures', do you mean there are some mapped to those areas, just painted black, or there aren't any at all, but that's how it's meant to be?

[UKMIL]

they have NO textures, and use just 'colours' to paint the rotor heads black.

[Panther_99FS]

Well,
If ol' Rog likes it - it's got to be good!

[Lateral-G]

they have NO textures, and use just 'colours' to paint the rotor heads black.

Thanks for the clarification.

-G-

[rdyoung]

UKMIL's new CH-47 is out over at Simviation.

Be careful if you retract the gear (it doesn't retract) but acts as if it does (you get the forcefeedback thump), especially when you land and forgot to extend it...:redf:

-G-

Appears to be an oversight in the Aircraft.cfg "points" entries for the gear: I was able to disable the retractable gear by zeroing the extension and retraction times, using an Aircraft.cfg from a default helo to determine where these entries were.

There may be a few other oversights, too, like some missing gauge and effects files (at least after my install), and the fuselage reflections seem reversed (light where one might expect shadow with self-shadow turned off??to be confirmed??).

Nice looking model.

Rick

[michael davies]

Ok, I'll risk it and offer some constructive criticism.

The fuselage textures are too shiny and the rotor heads are too dark and black and soak up all the light.

Both of these can be fixed very easily with out resorting to complicated specular maps, it is possible to alter the material specularity, I've been told that this is not possible and that the only way to alter specular levels is with a specular texture, try the below tests and see if it helps, it certainly helps here.

Open the model and then open the FSX shader tool, select each material in turn and alter just two parameters, see attached image, the red circled parameter is the brightness of the specular shine, I suspect yours are white or very light grey, military aircraft are better suited with a darker color, actually altering the specular color is an old trick from CFS2, may aircraft back then were also too shiny and it was all to do with the color of the shine, I suggest you use a RGB of 70 to begin with, click to color box and then move the slider to make the specular color darker.

The light blue circle is the specular shine spread a value of 5 will give a sharp shine like on a wine glass, a value of 25 will give a broad shine like rubber tyres, I suggest a value of 20 to begin with.

Of course you can change the specular color more accurately and with differing values on a texture by using a specular map, for example mat anti glare panels on a otherwise high shine model, but for a general overall specular shine then the material way seems to work best.

Rotor heads, simply apply a swatch to the rotor heads, make its color dark grey, never black, pure black just soaks up light and looks terrible, RGB 10 is a good color to start with, then apply the material specular notes above and you will end up with dark looking rotor heads but a shine to pick out the high spots and give them some definition and depth.

Hope that helps

Michael

[Panther_99FS]

Michael,
Looking at Rogers screenie, it looks like it has some glare/white spots that show up (unfortunately) in photo-real repaints...

[UKMIL]

many thanks, i may update it with these fixes. this is my first FSX model so still learning, and trying to forget my FS9 ideas

[N332DW]

yes, black spots on the belly appear to be flipped polygons on the specular map as they do have diffuse textures mapped in those regions .
also confirmed gear animation doesn't retract straight out of the box.

man i hope i don't sound like nit picker , i hate that

57410
taken at 90 bank angle , belly to the sun ...

[UKMIL]

one question tho, i use GMAX so how do i run the shader tool in there, as it seems for 3dsmax

[michael davies]

Michael,
Looking at Rogers screenie, it looks like it has some glare/white spots that show up (unfortunately) in photo-real repaints...

Mr P,

Maybe ?, but I'll wager a beer or two that modified material specular values will either reduce them or even remove them, looking at those shots and others I've seen, the highlights look like specular issues.

I don't have the model so cannot speak authoritatively on what type of texture is used, but material specularity is something I've been doing for six years, right back to CFS2 and a Hex editor LOL.

We'll see what happens if they change the materials, IMHO specular shine on military airframes should be subtle and discrete, it is often overdone, not just in FSx but in past sims too, either by choice or I suspect lack of detailed knowledge on what to alter to get the desired effect, I much prefer a sheen type effect.

I had been led to believe that material specularity was not possible in FSx and that specular maps had to be used, I bemoaned that loss as I feel material specularity has an important place in model visuals, granted specular maps are more detailed and pixel accurate, but for large areas then you cannot beat a material shine, it was only when messing with the Jetstream41 materials that I noticed these values, I'm sure it must be common knowledge by those who pushed the frontiers long before me, so apologise if it repeats past endeavours.

Best

Michael

[UKMIL]

ok i have added a dark spec map, and now it has no shine, BUT the side away from the light is very dark, so do i need to make a lighter spec?

[michael davies]

ok i have added a dark spec map, and now it has no shine, BUT the side away from the light is very dark, so do i need to make a lighter spec?

Ahh adding specular maps might be an issue, I wasn't referring to specular maps at all, they're a different kettle of fish, as a test I suggest removing any and all specular maps from the texture folder, then opening the model in Gmax and using the text above only alter the two values I mentioned, recompile and see what happens.

Back to your specular map, notice it is not a smooth transition between left and right sides, that is because its a texture and its showing the join between the two, a material shine shouldn't show that, either way that line along the spine should be a smooth blend, not a hard line between light and shadow. Just an off chance thought, is your fuselage in two hlaves ?, if so then you will need to weld the vertices along the two halves to get a smooth flow of specular effects

I've not played too much with specular textures just yet, but the color of the texture is the amount of shine and the color of the alpha layer is the spread I believe.

As I said specular maps are much more detailed and thus much more complex to get right, materials are much simpler and thus easier to get a direct and quick result, start with them and then work up to maps later.

A screen grab of your material editor similar to the one I posted earlier would explain more than an in game screen shot I think.

Best

Michael

[UKMIL]

ok i assume you are meaning this spec colour circled? i was under the impression these had no effect in FSX, but i am prob wrong. by default it is light grey, so i will try and remove the spec map, and change this instead

[N2056]

In Gmax you use the Material Editor. For specular maps...the color is the reflected light color, and the alpha controls the size of the 'hotspot', darker alpha = tighter spot.
Also...changing shader values via the editor adds to the draw calls. My understanding is that you are better off adjusting values via texture.
Hope that helps...I've been messing with spec maps a lot lately :isadizzy:

There is a lot of info on this over at freeflightdesign :d

[UKMIL]

aaarggh, now i am confused, on one hand, i am told to use material editor, on the other, use a texture:isadizzy:

[stiz]

i'll add to the confusion then! :costumes:

i took a ganders at the texture folders and i can see any spec maps at all, however when i opened up the normanl map textures (or bump) they dont look right, i'll have a play :wavey:

[michael davies]

ok i assume you are meaning this spec colour circled? i was under the impression these had no effect in FSX, but i am prob wrong. by default it is light grey, so i will try and remove the spec map, and change this instead

Ok,

So in Gmax you don't have an Aces tools icon at the top where you can drag down tools like ExportLOL, Animation manager, AttachPointTool etc etc ?. If you do then there should be one for FSXShaderTool, open it and it should look like my first image.

If not and you use the stock material editor then it will look a little different, only when materials are fully converted to FSX types will it look like mine, it looks like yours still has FS9 type formats, but no worry it should still work.

I've attached mine material manager and high lighted the relevant parts, make sure the diffuse and specular is locked, choose a darkish color, set specular and glossiness like mine, untick your specular color map, leave all its properties alone, just untick it.

I think when you add a specular map then it will ignore the material specularity and yes I was told material specularity would not work, but rest assured for some odd reason it most certainly works here.

When you showed the first compiled your model did you have a specular map attached ?, or have you added that this evening ?, just trying to define which might be the best path to help you.

Best

Michael

[UKMIL]

the original release model, as per the pics posted earlier did NOT have a spec map. i only added it tonight, and hence got the dark side as in my pics

[stiz]

problem fixed!! the bump maps where only half done, you forgot to change the alphas :) Heres the proccess http://www.aerodynamika.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1195605394

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/Stiz987/chin2.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f117/Stiz987/chin1.jpg

Also a couple of more things if i may :)

If you dont want to deleve into spec maps and what not yet then you can control the shine like you could with fs9 models as long as you tick the "base material has no spec map" (or something similer) in the material propiters. Another thing is that if you dont want to use a texture for a part and just want a colour, you can use any colour you want as long as its defined as a FSX material, otherwise it just goes jet black like the rotar bits and some bits and pieces in the cockpit.

Hope this helps :wavey:

[UKMIL]

thanks stiz i will look at this, and patch the chinny accordingly after sorting the bump maps

[N2056]

aaarggh, now i am confused, on one hand, i am told to use material editor, on the other, use a texture:isadizzy:

They actually both work, and I've used it both ways :d
My understanding is that the less you change the shader settings the better the performance of the model in FSX.

Chuck Jodry has done a lot of work on textures...I'm guessing he'll have some input here that will prove helpful.

[michael davies]

In Gmax you use the Material Editor. For specular maps...the color is the reflected light color, and the alpha controls the size of the 'hotspot', darker alpha = tighter spot.
Also...changing shader values via the editor adds to the draw calls. My understanding is that you are better off adjusting values via texture.
Hope that helps...I've been messing with spec maps a lot lately :isadizzy:

There is a lot of info on this over at freeflightdesign :d

Interesting, I get no changes in draw calls with material specular added or none at all or any variation in between ?, I think once a material is mapped and allocated its alloted textures then draw calls should remain static, the sim cannot surely define draw calls on the change of a texture color ?, it should change with respect to how many features are added like specular, bump, diffuse etc, but surely not as to whats in each of those respective textures ?. The same logic should apply to the base material changes or edits, yes / no ?.

Specular maps are better for more detailed work, say in VCs where you want different specular levels on controls and such, they're good externally if you want to 'paint' on matt anti glare panels or matt exhaust staining, but for very large common material areas then a specular material might be better, especially if it appears to not effect draw calls....it doesn't here but thats no measure that it wont any where else.

All deeply intriguing stuff LOL.

Best

Michael

[UKMIL]

ok i have to figure this out, as i am using GIMP to make my bump maps. and the tutorials are for PS. so from what i see, i need to somehow, in gimp, extract the red channel and make it the alpha?

[stiz]

never used GIMP before but if theres a tab with "channels" or something along those lines then if should list the RGB (red,green,blue) channels + the alpha, if you find that it should just be a matter of copying+pasteing the red channel into the alpha channel, but thats all on theory, i dont even know if GIMP supports channels and what not :isadizzy:

[michael davies]

Well I use PSP so am going to have to work that out some time as well :isadizzy:.

Best

Michael

[N2056]

Micheal, I agree about this being intriguing!

I read about that shader thing on Adrian Wood's (?) Blog, on the official FSX website...

"Addtionally, as often as possible, use the textures to change the shader values as opposed to using the shader constants themselves. If you control reflection in the diffuse alpha and specular in the specular color and specular alpha, then you should be able to set the reflection and specular power term constants at max and use the texture values to adjust accordingly. You should be able to get rubber, metal, plastic and other surfaces in a single draw call just by adjusting the various portions of the textures. The only thing you should need new material constants for is something like glass, chrome or an object that is transparent or glows.
Also, make sure that all of the material textures are grouped. Put all the chrome on one sheet, because then you can have a single chrome material and a single chrome draw call. Do the same with glass, metal, etc. If you have 11 1024x1024 textures, and each of them has a chrome section, then you are forcing 11 new draw calls when you could have one."

I put off trying to figure this specular thing out for a long time because it seemed very convoluted to me, but having messed with it for awhile now it is starting to click. I have done a whole lot of 'trial & error' :costumes:

[N332DW]

try the material editor in Gmax , you can use a standard material for specular or a BMP -
SPECULAR LEVEL{amplitude} and GLOSSINES{bandwidth};
these enries in Gmax appear to be the same ones as the 3dsMax example above, ... but i could be wrong
57422

[UKMIL]

ok, i have sorted the BUMP MAP which has eliminated the DARK SIDE i was seeing

i have set the SPEC using gmax Material editor to a darker grey

here is the result

[stiz]

looking goooood :jump: :jump: :jump:

[michael davies]

Micheal, I agree about this being intriguing!

I read about that shader thing on Adrian Wood's (?) Blog, on the official FSX website...

"Addtionally, as often as possible, use the textures to change the shader values as opposed to using the shader constants themselves. If you control reflection in the diffuse alpha and specular in the specular color and specular alpha, then you should be able to set the reflection and specular power term constants at max and use the texture values to adjust accordingly. You should be able to get rubber, metal, plastic and other surfaces in a single draw call just by adjusting the various portions of the textures. The only thing you should need new material constants for is something like glass, chrome or an object that is transparent or glows.
Also, make sure that all of the material textures are grouped. Put all the chrome on one sheet, because then you can have a single chrome material and a single chrome draw call. Do the same with glass, metal, etc. If you have 11 1024x1024 textures, and each of them has a chrome section, then you are forcing 11 new draw calls when you could have one."

I put off trying to figure this specular thing out for a long time because it seemed very convoluted to me, but having messed with it for awhile now it is starting to click. I have done a whole lot of 'trial & error' :costumes:

Ok, yes I follow that, he's right and I'm right LOL, I'm talking at cross purposes here so I'll try and explain what he really means, well what i think he really means.

For this example lets take a gloss painted fuselage, on it are a couple of panels that are matt for lets say anti glare shield and may be an unpainted aerial / antenna/ sensor panel.

Ok if we just use one material that covers the whole fuselage with one texture then that will be one draw call, however using material specularity we can only set one value, do we set it to the skin gloss or the panel matt ?, lets say we set it to skin gloss. How are we now going to make those panels matt ?, traditionally we would have to cut those areas out as polys and either carve them off as separate polys, or apply a new material to them.

Either way your fuselage would now need two materials added, one for the skin gloss and one for the matt areas, that would be two draw calls.

Ok by using map specular we can retain that complete fuselage, one fuselage and one texture and only one draw call, then we can use a texture layer to alter the specularity to give us both gloss and matt on one texture, on one material and on one part.

If you are going to apply many differing levels of specularity to small parts hither and thither then specular maps are the only effective solution, however if your only going to apply one level of specularity to one very large piece, say a wing or fin then material specularity is equally effective.

Few of us actually cram as much texture onto as few maps as ACEs, most of us have far more maps and usually dedicated to components, ie Landing gear will be on one, wheels on another, VC bits and bobs spread over two or three, already were loosing draw calls by having more and more maps and breaking the model down into smaller and smaller chunks, if you do that and plan carefully then it is possible to have some chunks all use the same material attributes and not worry about draw calls or specular maps, I'm sure simply adding a specular map will raise draws calls in its own right, it is an extra layer the sim has to render so will have an impact. Materials will not, you have to have a material anyway, specular or not should not increase draw calls in its own right, its just the number of maps and the number of differing materials will have an effect, I think ?.

Make anymore sense LOL.

Best

Michael

[N2056]

I think you're getting the hang of it :ernae:
I don't really fly choppers much...but I might give this one a go :d

[ananda]

I am missing texture INT_BUMP which is used by chin.mdl.

[michael davies]

ok, i have sorted the BUMP MAP which has eliminated the DARK SIDE i was seeing

i have set the SPEC using gmax Material editor to a darker grey

here is the result

Right :applause:, now were getting somewhere !, your color looks good, I'd perhaps now adjust the glossiness and specular level, the lower the glossiness then the bigger the spread of the shine, ie the more of a sheen it becomes, I'd guess and knock a value of 10 off each parameter and see what that looks like.

Specular material color, ok y'all heres a little secret about specular material colors, select your aircraft and slew to say 1000 AGL, then use Numpad to make it roll slowly, now watch your shadow and highlights very carefully as it rolls across the airframe, I mean very carefully, if they appear to be jumping or flipping from poly to poly in a stepping type motion then your specular material color is waaaayyy too light, trust me if you don't know what to look for or understand then try it with a light material specular colors and you'll soon see what I mean LOL.

Darken your specular material color, recompile and try again, you will now notice that the shadows and highlights move in a seamless and smooth fashion across the fuselage, not only that, the darker color makes the edges smoother and gives a much more natural feel to the specular shine.

Generally RGB 100 or lower is good for specular material shines and sim smoothness and performance.

This may only effect certain video cards and drivers but I've seen the color have a drastic effect over the years on many PCs so there is some mileage in making the color darker.

If I knew how to vid capture I'd show this effect very easily, but I don't, so I cant :banghead:.

Best

Michael

[UKMIL]

ok adjusted the spec level down to 10, and i think it is about right now:applause:

[UKMIL]

ok few more shots. i have also added a new FSX material to the rotor heads so they are now almost, but not black

[stiz]

sorted :jump: :applause: :medals:

[guzler]

Well done guys, great teamwork here.

I haven't a bloody clue what you are on about, but really enjoyed reading this thread and seeing this great helicopter get better throughout :ernae:

[NSS]

Well done guys, great teamwork here.

I haven't a bloody clue what you are on about, but really enjoyed reading this thread and seeing this great helicopter get better throughout :ernae:
I will second that. Thats why this forum and the people on it are the dogs danglies....:ernae:

[michael davies]

Yup thats got it, that change in rotor head texture and specular looks much better than pure black, the slight reflection gives them a much better 3D effect. Fuselage looks like a millitary airframe now.

Best

Michael

[Quixoticish]

Looks fantastic to me, whereabouts can this latest version be downloaded from Dave?

[UKMIL]

i will package this up and release over at UKMIL later today. I will also upload here at sim house as i never did upload the original:wiggle:

[Roger]

Great stuff UKmil:applause: and thanks to all the helpers for making a great model even better!:ernae:

[UKMIL]

indeed thanks all here for the help. OK, the new version is now at UKMIL.org.uk. you have to register to download, but it is FREE. i will upload here, as soon as i get my upload priviledges i need which may take a while.

[jdhaenens]

Looks great!

[ananda]

Still missing INT_BUMP.BMP

[UKMIL]

int_bump is no longer used, so i will be removing it from the MDL file

[ananda]

int_bump is no longer used, so i will be removing it from the MDL file

Thank you. Could you also please remove .DDS which is also called by chin.mdl.

George

[UKMIL]

ok LATEST release inc all DDS textures, and new file system [using shared textures] uploaded to Sim Outhouse. if you use it, please delete any previous versions

[Tweek]

Looking MUCH better! Glad to see you took the information on board, as I'm sure it'll come in handy for later models. Look forward to downloading it.

[UKMIL]

indeed, here is my next mdl, already in action, and as you can see, it needs the spec treatment, now i know how to get rid of that shine

http://www.ukmil.org.uk/e107_files/public/1223916489_3_FT34345_image13.jpg

[Lateral-G]

UKMIL, thanks for taking the time to update and to everyone else for providing inputs to make this helo even better. When I get home later I'll be sure to d/l the updated version and test her out.


The C-17 is going to look spectacular!

-G-

[BananaBob]

I'd like to have a go at the rotor textures too, that new work on it looks 10x better! :applause::applause::applause:

[UKMIL]

bob, feel free to send me some new textures

[BananaBob]

bob, feel free to send me some new textures

Will do mate! :ernae:

[n4gix]

...I'm sure simply adding a specular map will raise draws calls in its own right, it is an extra layer the sim has to render so will have an impact.

No it won't add to the drawcalls. One FSX Material = one drawcall, no matter how many textures are assigned to the FSX Material's slots.

As a perfect example of achieving draw call efficiency, consider one FS9 model (Eaglesoft's Liberty XL2) that I remapped/remodeled for full FSX compliance...

FS9 model had 384 drawcalls
FSX model has 15 drawcalls

In the process, I managed to double the texture resolution, reduce the texture loading (in spite of having more actual bitmaps!), and cut the framerate impact nearly in half. :ernae:

Most of that work involved rearranging the images more efficiently and actually using as many pixels on any single texture as possible. :)

[stovall]

My new version seems to have a hole where the Attitude gauge should go. Anyone else have this problem.

Tom

[Roger]

Tried Bob's Piasecki rotors. Tower view with the new model:ernae:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/rogera/chin-2.jpg

[michael davies]

No it won't add to the drawcalls. One FSX Material = one drawcall, no matter how many textures are assigned to the FSX Material's slots.

As a perfect example of achieving draw call efficiency, consider one FS9 model (Eaglesoft's Liberty XL2) that I remapped/remodeled for full FSX compliance...

FS9 model had 384 drawcalls
FSX model has 15 drawcalls

In the process, I managed to double the texture resolution, reduce the texture loading (in spite of having more actual bitmaps!), and cut the framerate impact nearly in half. :ernae:

Most of that work involved rearranging the images more efficiently and actually using as many pixels on any single texture as possible. :)

Bill,

Thanks for the clarification, I need to look into draw calls and find out what helps and what doesnt....after I've worked out a few more basics LOL.

Best

Michael

[UKMIL]

Roger, nice shots there

[BananaBob]

Nice shot Roger! I can't get the rotor texture to line up because it's one texture for both animations and for that to work, the rotor heads would have to be in the same positions. PM me if you want these textures, with an addy.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1654/ch47rtrs1dz4.jpg

[Roger]

Yep I noticed that. It's not a biggie unless you go looking for it but I'd guess that would be a real brain teaser to align:isadizzy:

[UKMIL]

bob, send them to me. i can try and rotate the rear head to fit the texture

[Tako_Kichi]

bob, send them to me. i can try and rotate the rear head to fit the texture
You might want to look at BOTH rotor heads Gaffer. Looking at Bob's screenie the front one seems misaligned too.

Just a HU. :mixedsmi:

[UKMIL]

ok i have tweaked the rotor heads, so they now line up with the textures

[Bruce Thompson]

Your'e doing a great job on this one Gaffer.

Thank you:applause::applause::applause:

[dennison]

My new version seems to have a hole where the Attitude gauge should go. Anyone else have this problem.

Tom

Yes i've had this from the start also. I looked at the panel.cfg and it seems the main AI gauges are Trident and Javelin, i don't have these gauges and assume you don't either.

I just used the AI gauge from the UKmil wessex instead.


Thank you very much for this Gaffer,love it!!


Regards

[Roger]

Well done!:applause:

[stovall]

Thanks dennison, I will just replace as you suggest.

Regards, Tom

[Henry]

Just about to try her out
wish me luck its got no wings :censored:
and im a bad pilot even with wings:redf:
Thanks
H

[Henry]

The good news i have no missing gauges
the bad news
i need help! :costumes:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/henrybaker/Screen307.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/henrybaker/Screen309.jpg

not a thing wrong with the developers
just a moron in charge of flying :redf:
LOL
H

[simkid22]

The main thing is that you look good doing what ever it is you are trying to do Henry! :d

[BananaBob]

ok i have tweaked the rotor heads, so they now line up with the textures

Now that's looking sweeet! :applause:

[kilo delta]

Thats a novel way of mowing the grass,Henry :costumes:

[MCDesigns]

I knew the chinook was aerobatic Henry, but you could have gained some altitude first, LOL :costumes:

Great heli gaffer, thanks for going above and beyond to make it that way!

[UKMIL]

ok latest version, inc Bananabobs rotors available only at UKMIL

[Henry]

ok latest version, inc Bananabobs rotors available only at UKMIL
thank you sir
i promise not to crash this one
if my fingers are crossed does it count :costumes:
oh well practice makes perfect
my primary teacher used to tell me
H